Fear in the Transfiguration

[theplains]

President Russell M. Nelson said in the April 2020 General Conference

Now, my dear brothers and sisters, consider the fact that in these three instances just
mentioned, just before the Father introduced the Son, the people involved were in a
state of fear and, to some degree, desperation.

The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled by a cloud on the Mount 
of Transfiguration.

I see it portrayed another way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture,

Matthew 17:5-6 - And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with 
him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will 
make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."  He was still 
speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 
"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."  When the 
disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 

The fear was not in seeing the cloud.  It was in hearing the voice of the Father.

Was Jesus encircled by a cloud or did the cloud actually overshadow (not encircle) all 
those present?

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

Was Jesus encircled by a cloud or did the cloud actually overshadow (not encircle) all 
those present?

I don't want to be snarky, but

1- What difference does it make?

2- Who could answer that question?

3- What is the difference between "encircle" and "overshadow"?

I am simply ignorant about why this is important 

 

Edited November 20 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

President Russell M. Nelson said in the April 2020 General Conference

Now, my dear brothers and sisters, consider the fact that in these three instances just
mentioned, just before the Father introduced the Son, the people involved were in a
state of fear and, to some degree, desperation.

The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled by a cloud on the Mount 
of Transfiguration.

I see it portrayed another way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture,

Matthew 17:5-6 - And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with 
him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will 
make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."  He was still 
speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 
"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."  When the 
disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 

The fear was not in seeing the cloud.  It was in hearing the voice of the Father.

Was Jesus encircled by a cloud or did the cloud actually overshadow (not encircle) all 
those present?

At the mount of transfiguration, the presence of God the Father was within the bright, holy cloud (Shekinah), and radiating out from the very presence of the Father was a glorious light that enveloped (encircled) the Son, which caused his face and clothing to shine with the brightness of the sun.

2 And (he) was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Matthew 17)

Meanwhile the three apostles were overshadowed, not enveloped, by the cloud, which is why they weren’t similarly transfigured. The word ‘overshadowed’ means “to cast a shadow upon,” which is not the same thing as being enveloped within or encircled by the actual cloud itself.

Back to the drawing board…

Edited November 20 by teddyaware

[CV75]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't want to be snarky, but

1- What difference does it make?

2- Who could answer that question?

3- What is the difference between "encircle" and "overshadow"?

I am simply ignorant about why this is important 

 

How does a bright cloud cast a shadow?

Reminds me of the song, "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?" 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Meanwhile the three apostles were overshadowed, not enveloped, by the cloud, which is why they weren’t similarly transfigured. The word ‘overshadowed’ means “to cast a shadow upon,” which is not the same thing as being enveloped within or encircled by the actual cloud itself.

In Greek?

Evidence?

Again, what is the importance of the issue?

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How does a bright cloud cast a shadow?

Does it say that?  It would cast a shadow on anything less bright, I imagine.

But so what? 🤔

[CV75]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

President Russell M. Nelson said in the April 2020 General Conference

Now, my dear brothers and sisters, consider the fact that in these three instances just
mentioned, just before the Father introduced the Son, the people involved were in a
state of fear and, to some degree, desperation.

The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled by a cloud on the Mount 
of Transfiguration.

I see it portrayed another way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture,

Matthew 17:5-6 - And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with 
him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will 
make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."  He was still 
speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 
"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."  When the 
disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 

The fear was not in seeing the cloud.  It was in hearing the voice of the Father.

Was Jesus encircled by a cloud or did the cloud actually overshadow (not encircle) all 
those present?

Verse 6 may be describing a delayed reaction to what they had already seen in verses 2, 3 and the bright cloud in verse 5, with verse 4 being Peter’s reactionary attempt to suppress, come o grips with, or recovery from his fear (see Mark 9:6, and then they heard the voice).  Luke 9: 32 indicates their affected mental state from the things they saw in the first place, “sleep” (syncope) being one likely reaction to an excess of fear and desperation, and Luke 9: 31 allows the understanding that divine glory encircles (and even infuses) mortal souls, allowing in this case, the interpretation that the glory emanating from Moses and Elijah encircled Jesus and the disciples nearby.

ETA: "overshadow" can also mean to shelter or cover, physically or with interpersonal influence. Sheltered and covered by glory allows the imagery of being encircled physically or influentially.

Edited November 20 by CV75

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Does it say that?  It would cast a shadow on anything less bright, I imagine.

But so what? 🤔

Some people find joy, and others annoyance, in others' creative ways of looking at things. Or entertainment/annoyance, as in the lyrics of "Sound of Music" songs.

[Pyreaux]

It was the custom for Priests who approached God to do so with “fear and trembling” (Genesis 9:2; Psalm 55:6; Judith 2:28; 4 Maccabees 4:10; 1 Enoch 13:3; Narsai, Homilies 17A). Like when the High Priest preformed an Atonement ritual, the proper thing to do was to approach the Holy of Holies with the purposeful attitude of fear and trembling, thus showing reverence and respect. The Apostles were priests, the Mount of Transfiguration was sacred, they were involved in an 8-day initiation rite. The clouds acted as natural temple incense clouds to shield the Apostles from the full and deadly glory of God the Father.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Some people find joy, and others annoyance, in others' creative ways of looking at things. Or entertainment/annoyance, as in the lyrics of "Sound of Music" songs.

Yeah, but these songs/poems were in some cases written thousandS of years ago in a totally foreign culture and language, and translated into two contemporary Engish words so close in meaning that apparently English speakers cannot define the difference between the words.

Sorry all, I'm out.  I just don't get it!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah, but these songs/poems were in some cases written thousandS of years ago in a totally foreign culture and language, and translated into two contemporary Engish words so close in meaning that apparently English speakers cannot define the difference between the words.

Sorry all, I'm out.  I just don't get it!

It's the feeling they get when they attach meaning to the words.

Some people might attach more fear to how they imagine the voice of God than the appearance of the cloud. Poetic license (as Rogers and Hammerstein).

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

It's the feeling they get when they attach meaning to the words.

Yep! Fine. Good idea, seriously!

So they should pretend the words were written in English and ask themselves what the words mean to themselves, which is what I suggest anyway. 🤯😲.

We call that "personal revelation", which, for each person is the only kind of revelation there is.😳  Don't accept anyone's interpretation but your own!

Just pray, stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself the question! 

Why ask someone else what some poetry means to themselves? 😃😳😏

Edited November 21 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled by a cloud on the Mount 
of Transfiguration.

I see it portrayed another way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture,

I see it portrayed exactly that way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture:

Luke 9:28–35:  "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.  And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.   But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.  And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.  While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.  And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Matthew 17:5-6 - And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with 
him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will 
make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."  He was still 
speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 
"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."  When the 
disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 

The fear was not in seeing the cloud.  It was in hearing the voice of the Father.

I guess you need to decide if you believe Matthew, who said the disciples were terrified when they heard the voice from the cloud, or Luke who said they feared as the cloud overshadowed them and as they entered into the cloud.  Or do you believe both?

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Was Jesus encircled by a cloud or did the cloud actually overshadow (not encircle) all 
those present?

Did Jesus and the disciples enter into the cloud as Luke says, or did the cloud only overshadow them as Matthew, Mark, and Luke (also) says?

[CV75]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep! Fine. Good idea, seriously!

So they should pretend the words were written in English and ask themselves what the words mean to themselves, which is what I suggest anyway. 🤯😲.

We call that "personal revelation", which, for each person is the only kind of revelation there is.😳  Don't accept anyone's interpretation but your own!

Just pray, stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself the question! 

Why ask someone else what some poetry means to themselves? 😃😳😏

 Book club?

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I see it portrayed exactly that way when I look at the account as recorded in scripture:

Luke 9:28–35:  "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.  And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.   But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.  And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.  While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.  And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

I guess you need to decide if you believe Matthew, who said the disciples were terrified when they heard the voice from the cloud, or Luke who said they feared as the cloud overshadowed them and as they entered into the cloud.  Or do you believe both?

Did Jesus and the disciples enter into the cloud as Luke says, or did the cloud only overshadow them as Matthew, Mark, and Luke (also) says?

Thanks for figuring it out, and I apologize for any snarkiness.

I won't post on this thread further 

[InCognitus]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks for figuring it out, and I apologize for any snarkiness.

I won't post on this thread further 

Oh come on now!  We need a little snarkiness every now and then.  Keep posting  

[theplains]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:29 AM, teddyaware said:

which is not the same thing as being enveloped within or encircled by the actual cloud itself.

Which scripture says Jesus was encircled?

[theplains]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:20 AM, mfbukowski said:

I don't want to be snarky, but

1- What difference does it make?

2- Who could answer that question?

3- What is the difference between "encircle" and "overshadow"?

I am simply ignorant about why this is important 

 

I was just trying to understand why President Russell M. Nelson thought the fear was
in the seeing instead of the hearing like the scripture says.

[theplains]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:37 PM, CV75 said:

Verse 6 may be describing a delayed reaction to what they had already seen in verses 2, 3 and the bright cloud in verse 5, with verse 4 being Peter’s reactionary attempt to suppress, come o grips with,

Maybe one could speculate they ran too or fell down in fear.

[theplains]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:11 AM, InCognitus said:

Luke 9:28–35:  "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.  And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.   But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.  And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.  While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.  And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

Thanks for that reference.

 

On 11/21/2023 at 1:11 AM, InCognitus said:

I guess you need to decide if you believe Matthew, who said the disciples were terrified when they heard the voice from the cloud, or Luke who said they feared as the cloud overshadowed them and as they entered into the cloud.  Or do you believe both?

President Russell M. Nelson said, "The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled
by a cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration".

I don't think the fear was in seeing Jesus being encircled by the cloud.

 

On 11/21/2023 at 1:11 AM, InCognitus said:

Did Jesus and the disciples enter into the cloud as Luke says, or did the cloud only overshadow them as Matthew, Mark, and Luke (also) says?

That's hard to explain.  I'll devote some more time to analyze it.  But for now, here is my quick
summary.   Maybe the cloud came, overshadowed them, then proceeded to come down on
them. To their perspective it seemed like they were entering the cloud when it was instead the
cloud coming down to envelop them.

When Luke says "While he [Jesus] thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them:
and they feared", one could speculate "overshadowed them and they feared" excluded mention
of Jesus being overshadowed and fearing.  In this case, "them" and "they" would exclude Christ.
Or you could say "them" includes all of them but fear only applies to three of them.

Luke's version has them entering the cloud with fear and then them hearing the voice of the
Father; afterwards no fear.  Matthew's version has a cloud overshadowing them, then them falling
on their face after hearing the Father's voice.  Mark's version has them in fear after seeing Christ's
transfiguration, before Moses and Elijah appeared, before the cloud came.

It appears the writers had different perspective on when the disciples displayed fear.

Which do I believe?  Hmmm ... my GPS is still recalculating.  Unless the writers are recording
instances of when they displayed fear. Which could be plausible if the writers chose to record
their fears at different times instead of all their times of fear in the event.

One still has to consider President Russell M. Nelson's teaching that their fear was when they
saw Jesus encircled by the cloud. This seems to omit the encircling (overshadowing) of all of
the others (Peter, James, and John).

Jesus the Christ says, "As the prophet visitants were about to depart, “Peter said unto Jesus,
Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for
Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.”

But there is no scripture that says Peter was prompted to say this because he was given the
impression Moses and Elijah were about to depart.

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

President Russell M. Nelson said, "The Apostles were afraid when they saw Jesus Christ encircled
by a cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration".

I don't think the fear was in seeing Jesus being encircled by the cloud.

I think the fear came when Jesus and all of them were enclosed by the cloud.  It seems President Nelson got it right.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

That's hard to explain.  I'll devote some more time to analyze it.  But for now, here is my quick
summary.   Maybe the cloud came, overshadowed them, then proceeded to come down on
them. To their perspective it seemed like they were entering the cloud when it was instead the
cloud coming down to envelop them.

When Luke says "While he [Jesus] thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them:
and they feared", one could speculate "overshadowed them and they feared" excluded mention
of Jesus being overshadowed and fearing.  In this case, "them" and "they" would exclude Christ.
Or you could say "them" includes all of them but fear only applies to three of them.

Luke's version has them entering the cloud with fear and then them hearing the voice of the
Father; afterwards no fear.  Matthew's version has a cloud overshadowing them, then them falling
on their face after hearing the Father's voice.  Mark's version has them in fear after seeing Christ's
transfiguration, before Moses and Elijah appeared, before the cloud came.

It appears the writers had different perspective on when the disciples displayed fear.

I think it's safe to say the disciples were afraid the entire time, and the gospel writers vary on when they mention that the disciples had fear.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

One still has to consider President Russell M. Nelson's teaching that their fear was when they
saw Jesus encircled by the cloud. This seems to omit the encircling (overshadowing) of all of
the others (Peter, James, and John).

This is nitpicking.  No account can include every single detail.   

For example, in the gospel accounts of the women going to anoint the body of Jesus in the sepulcher, Luke says there were multiple women going to do that and names among them Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (Luke 23:55-56, 24:10) but Matthew mentions only the two women named Mary (Matthew 28:1), and Mark mentions the two women named Mary, but he also includes Salome (Mark 16:1), and John mentions only Mary Magdalene (John 20:1).  And when they enter the tomb, Luke says there were "two men" in shining garments inside that tomb who spoke to them (Luke 24:4), but Mark mention only one "young man" in a white garment (Mark 16:5), while Matthew gives a description of an earthquake and only one angel of the Lord coming down to roll away the stone, and then he was the one speaking to the two women (Matt 28:2-5).

In each of the gospel accounts, the author is focusing on what they see as important to telling the story and they do not include every single detail.  As for President Nelson, he is doing the same thing but he is putting the focus on Jesus.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Jesus the Christ says, "As the prophet visitants were about to depart, “Peter said unto Jesus,
Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for
Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.”

But there is no scripture that says Peter was prompted to say this because he was given the
impression Moses and Elijah were about to depart.

Except there is.  See Luke 9:33.  If you don't think the KJV language explains it well, see other translations such as:

ESV:   "And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah'—not knowing what he said."

NET:  "Then as the men were starting to leave, Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us make three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah' - not knowing what he was saying."

Edited November 25 by InCognitus

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think it's safe to say the disciples were afraid the entire time, and the gospel writers vary on when they mention that the disciples had fear.

I thought the common consensus was Peter's thoughtless suggestion to make three tabernacles was at the very least due to overstimulation if not fearful awe. I would suggest if they had any idea what entering the cloud of this rural temple meant, which was akin to entering the incense clouds of the Holy of Holies, if they had any respect, would approach with fear and trembling. 

It would seem Peter understood what he was involved in on that day, 2 Peter 1:16-21, which records, “We were eyewitnesses of His majesty,” and, “We were with him on the holy mountain.” The word for “eyewitness” is a technical term for one who was admitted to the highest grade of initiation in a mystery. A Biblical "mystery" is a technical term for initiation into secret rites.

Edited November 24 by Pyreaux