Which Revelations Provide My LDS Friends with Certainty that Baptisms are the Means by which Sins are Forgiven?

[Leaf474]

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

Within the realm of Mormonism, it is believed that there exists a singular baptism that fulfills the divine mandate imparted by our Heavenly Father, as expounded upon by our esteemed prophets and apostles. The administration of baptism is restricted to male individuals who possess the Holy priesthood, and presently, this power and authority are exclusively present inside the Mormon Church. The validity of baptism subsequent to the demise of the final original apostle in the first century is rendered null and void upon an individual's transition into the realm of the spiritual. The rationale behind the practice of posthumous baptism by Mormons is to save wayward souls that have been deceived by the adversary.

 

While there may be a desire to classify Mormons as "Christian," it is important to note that the Mormon Church and its doctrines do not recognize Christianity as a legitimate authority to represent the everlasting God. In what manner can a group of individuals identifying as Christians effectively represent the Father, given that the Father does not grant them the ability to possess or exercise any form of priesthood power or authority? Mormon individuals express their admiration for the transformative impact of Christianity in fostering moral improvement among individuals of questionable character and enhancing the virtue of those already virtuous. However, their admiration for the Christian society ceases at this point.

 

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

Spiritual narcissism is a phenomenon that can be observed across several religious traditions.

"Spiritual narcissism" - interesting idea.

 

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

As an illustration, the Jehovah's Witnesses hold the belief that they alone represent the divine voice in the realm of religion. The leadership of the Jehovah's Witness religion asserts to its adherents that they alone represent God's voice among all individuals worldwide. The aforementioned statement holds true for the Seventh Day Adventists and their everyday adherence to their principles. Both religious traditions share the belief that during the eschatological period, God will utilize their respective organizations as instruments to build a divine reign on Earth.

If we consider the COJCOLDS, JW's, and SDA's, one trait they all have in common is that they all started in the 19th century, centered around a prophet figure. They also all have in the general neighborhood of 20 million adherents.

 

If we trace the beginning of the SDA'S and JW's to William Miller, they all started in the general neighborhood of 1840.

 

(Does any of the above demonstrate truth or falsehood? No. But it is very interesting imo.)

 

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

In the aforementioned religious traditions, it is believed that adherence to their respective faith is the sole means by which an individual can attain salvation and enter paradise. All other religious systems are regarded as being in a condition of apostasy. In my perspective, both of these religious traditions demonstrate characteristics of spiritual narcissism. 

 

It appears that you are making a concerted effort to persuade the Mormons on this platform to concur with your viewpoint that several forms of baptism are acceptable for admission into the Kingdom of God. May I inquire as to the rationale behind your endeavor? The fundamental tenet of their ideology revolves around the notion that Christianity has undergone a total departure from its original teachings, while positing that the Mormon Church has emerged in contemporary times to establish a robust framework for the authentic gospel. This framework, once established, will serve as a solid foundation upon which the Lord can establish a theocratic regime lasting a millennium upon his return. Over the course of the millennium, those adhering to various religious beliefs will be afforded the chance to embrace the authentic faith, namely the religious doctrine upheld by the Mormons in the present day. Over the course of one millennium, individuals residing on Earth will be afforded the chance to undergo baptism within the context of Mormonism, rather than Christianity. I am providing this explanation in response to your apparent frustration with the Mormons' acceptance of Christian baptism as a valid sacrament. It is important to note that the Mormon faith likes to say it is fundamentally rooted in Christianity, while considering other Christian religions as instruments of deception orchestrated by malevolent forces. There exists a lack of a moderate position, my friend. Accept Mormonism for what is.

 

 

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Joshua said:

Within the realm of Mormonism, it is believed that there exists a singular baptism that fulfills the divine mandate imparted by our Heavenly Father, as expounded upon by our esteemed prophets and apostles. The administration of baptism is restricted to male individuals who possess the Holy priesthood, and presently, this power and authority are exclusively present inside the Mormon Church. The validity of baptism subsequent to the demise of the final original apostle in the first century is rendered null and void upon an individual's transition into the realm of the spiritual. The rationale behind the practice of posthumous baptism by Mormons is to save wayward souls that have been deceived by the adversary.

 

While there may be a desire to classify Mormons as "Christian," it is important to note that the Mormon Church and its doctrines do not recognize Christianity as a legitimate authority to represent the everlasting God. In what manner can a group of individuals identifying as Christians effectively represent the Father, given that the Father does not grant them the ability to possess or exercise any form of priesthood power or authority? Mormon individuals express their admiration for the transformative impact of Christianity in fostering moral improvement among individuals of questionable character and enhancing the virtue of those already virtuous. However, their admiration for the Christian society ceases at this point. 

 

Spiritual narcissism is a phenomenon that can be observed across several religious traditions. As an illustration, the Jehovah's Witnesses hold the belief that they alone represent the divine voice in the realm of religion. The leadership of the Jehovah's Witness religion asserts to its adherents that they alone represent God's voice among all individuals worldwide. The aforementioned statement holds true for the Seventh Day Adventists and their everyday adherence to their principles. Both religious traditions share the belief that during the eschatological period, God will utilize their respective organizations as instruments to build a divine reign on Earth. In the aforementioned religious traditions, it is believed that adherence to their respective faith is the sole means by which an individual can attain salvation and enter paradise. All other religious systems are regarded as being in a condition of apostasy. In my perspective, both of these religious traditions demonstrate characteristics of spiritual narcissism. 

 

It appears that you are making a concerted effort to persuade the Mormons on this platform to concur with your viewpoint that several forms of baptism are acceptable for admission into the Kingdom of God. May I inquire as to the rationale behind your endeavor? The fundamental tenet of their ideology revolves around the notion that Christianity has undergone a total departure from its original teachings, while positing that the Mormon Church has emerged in contemporary times to establish a robust framework for the authentic gospel. This framework, once established, will serve as a solid foundation upon which the Lord can establish a theocratic regime lasting a millennium upon his return. Over the course of the millennium, those adhering to various religious beliefs will be afforded the chance to embrace the authentic faith, namely the religious doctrine upheld by the Mormons in the present day. Over the course of one millennium, individuals residing on Earth will be afforded the chance to undergo baptism within the context of Mormonism, rather than Christianity. I am providing this explanation in response to your apparent frustration with the Mormons' acceptance of Christian baptism as a valid sacrament. It is important to note that the Mormon faith likes to say it is fundamentally rooted in Christianity, while considering other Christian religions as instruments of deception orchestrated by malevolent forces. There exists a lack of a moderate position, my friend. Accept Mormonism for what is.

 

You're new it appears, his background story could help answer your question. I hope Navidad hasn't left the forum for good, from reading this thread he mentioned leaving.

He's a good man, and his wife sounds wonderful and his family too. I hope he'll come back and answer your post. I believe he loved his neighbors in Mexico that are LDS, and even actively participated in the ward there for the longest time. And maybe, a big maybe, the ward finally realized Navidad and his wife will not be officially joining but he still loved the people in the ward and wanted to still attend. From what he's written, I believe, they no longer accept that participation. Maybe there was a new bishop put in, not positive. Hopefully I really botched this and he'll make an effort to correct anything I've said. Just to get him back here posting it would be worth it to be wrong. 

I think his problem with the LDS church is that it won't recognize others' baptism just as you mentioned. That might be his main beef. And I think he'd love to continue his relationship with the LDS people. I love the LDS people myself. Not a strong believer anymore though, so it's a tough walk to walk. Recently had neighbors visit me out of the blue with a small gift. I am not as active in the church as the rest of my very LDS neighbors. I was excited to visit with them, I have met them before of course, but after they left I read the little note attached to the gift and it said from the ministering sisters. I specifically asked Relief Society president that I be taken off that list, for the reason that I didn't want people to have to spend money on me with drop off gifts but would love a text or phone call or visit. But it happened and I'm kind of sad about it. Like a check off the list, every three months. 

I was in their shoes once, but I loved visiting or emailing back in the day or a phone call to those I use to visit teach, but guilty of drop offs too. But just a text or phone call would mean the world but it just doesn't happen. Maybe Navidad is feeling the same way. Like all this time the relationships he made were superficial and not permanent, unless he became a member. Hope that's not the case.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Joshua said:

. The rationale behind the practice of posthumous baptism by Mormons is to save wayward souls that have been deceived by the adversary.

That is not the rationale unless one is meaning that all souls have at times sinned and therefore can be said to be deceived by the adversary and therefore all souls need access to the full grace of Christ.

Proxy ordinances are to provide the same opportunities of eternal progression to all mankind, even those who never had the opportunity to hear about Christ.

Quote

President Russell M. Nelson taught how our temple service follows the example of Jesus Christ: “Ordinances of the temple relate to personal progress and to the redemption of departed ancestors as well…

Proxy ordinances extend the saving grace of Jesus Christ to all people, and are a clear reflection of God's love for all His children. 

Quote

God has provided a clear plan for you and your family to return to Him. This plan is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because God loves all of His children, every person will eventually have the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel, whether in this life or the next. You accept the gospel by exercising faith in Jesus Christ, repenting, receiving sacred ordinances, and then obeying His commandments throughout your life.

Ordinances and covenants have been a part of the gospel from the beginning. An ordinance is a sacred religious ceremony performed in accordance with God’s law and by authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances, such as baptism and confirmation, are essential for our exaltation. With each essential ordinance, we enter into solemn commitments with the Lord. The commitments we make when we receive an ordinance are called covenants. Making and honoring covenants with God are necessary to receive the gift of eternal life that He offers to all of his children. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/ordinances-and-covenants?lang=eng#

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Joshua said:

The fundamental tenet of their ideology revolves around the notion that Christianity has undergone a total departure from its original teachings

Again, incorrect. You would do better to let Saints speak for ourselves.

Priesthood authority was lost along with many truths/doctrines and practices, but there were many truths retained in Christianity, including imo the most important one, which is that Christ is our Saviour and only through him can we be saved.  
 

Quote

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the priesthood conferred to Joseph Smith by the ministering of angels, the authority to act in God’s name was brought back to the earth. This is “restored,” not “reformed,” Christianity. Their belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why most Latter-day Saint converts, from the 1830s to the present, converted from other Christian denominations. None of these converts thought they were leaving Christianity; they are simply grateful to learn about, and become part of, the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers a more complete and rich Christian Church spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.

During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/apostasy?lang=eng#p39

[Calm]

Quote

It is important to note that the Mormon faith likes to say it is fundamentally rooted in Christianity, while considering other Christian religions as instruments of deception orchestrated by malevolent forces. 

Nope.  See above.

Also why we call ourselves Christians:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/christians?lang=eng#title3

Quote

While members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have no desire to compromise the distinctiveness of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, they wish to work together with other Christians—and people of all faiths—to recognize and remedy many of the moral and family issues faced by society. The Christian conversation is richer for what the Latter-day Saints bring to the table. There is no good reason for Christian faiths to ostracize each other when there has never been more urgent need for unity in proclaiming the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You're new it appears, his background story could help answer your question. I hope Navidad hasn't left the forum for good, from reading this thread he mentioned leaving.

He's a good man, and his wife sounds wonderful and his family too. I hope he'll come back and answer your post. I believe he loved his neighbors in Mexico that are LDS, and even actively participated in the ward there for the longest time. And maybe, a big maybe, the ward finally realized Navidad and his wife will not be officially joining but he still loved the people in the ward and wanted to still attend. From what he's written, I believe, they no longer accept that participation. Maybe there was a new bishop put in, not positive. Hopefully I really botched this and he'll make an effort to correct anything I've said. Just to get him back here posting it would be worth it to be wrong. 

I think his problem with the LDS church is that it won't recognize others' baptism just as you mentioned. That might be his main beef. And I think he'd love to continue his relationship with the LDS people. I love the LDS people myself. Not a strong believer anymore though, so it's a tough walk to walk. Recently had neighbors visit me out of the blue with a small gift. I am not as active in the church as the rest of my very LDS neighbors. I was excited to visit with them, I have met them before of course, but after they left I read the little note attached to the gift and it said from the ministering sisters. I specifically asked Relief Society president that I be taken off that list, for the reason that I didn't want people to have to spend money on me with drop off gifts but would love a text or phone call or visit. But it happened and I'm kind of sad about it. Like a check off the list, every three months. 

I was in their shoes once, but I loved visiting or emailing back in the day or a phone call to those I use to visit teach, but guilty of drop offs too. But just a text or phone call would mean the world but it just doesn't happen. Maybe Navidad is feeling the same way. Like all this time the relationships he made were superficial and not permanent, unless he became a member. Hope that's not the case.

❤️❤️❤️

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

If we trace the beginning of the SDA'S and JW's to William Miller, they all started in the general neighborhood of 1840.

I assume you are aware of the Second Great Awakening, during which many were searching for spiritual answers and a new spiritual home.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

The concept of certainty of result, advocated by all three religions, confers upon individuals the authority to pass judgment on those whom they perceive as inferior.

How can other people be truly defined as inferior when they are seen as God’s literal children?  There is a difference between having inferior understanding (having more incomplete or incorrect ideas) and having an inferior nature.  Saints who understand the Restored Gospel do not believe nonmembers have inferior natures.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng#title1

Quote

Latter-day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense; they consider every person divine in origin, nature, and potential. Each has an eternal core and is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.”1 Each possesses seeds of divinity and must choose whether to live in harmony or tension with that divinity. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people may “progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny.”2 Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father’s.

The desire to nurture the divinity in His children is one of God’s attributes that most inspires, motivates, and humbles members of the Church. God’s loving parentage and guidance can help each willing, obedient child of God receive of His fulness and of His glory. This knowledge transforms the way Latter-day Saints see their fellow human beings. The teaching that men and women have the potential to be exalted to a state of godliness clearly expands beyond what is understood by most contemporary Christian churches and expresses for the Latter-day Saints a yearning rooted in the Bible to live as God lives, to love as He loves, and to prepare for all that our loving Father in Heaven wishes for His children.

While there may some Saints who choose to look at others as inferior (including due to some mistaken teachings of our own that have been repudiated as false teachings when we received additional revelation), they are ignoring their own faith’s teachings when doing so.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

9 minutes ago, Joshua said:

Suppose an individual finds themselves at a juncture in their life whereby they want an ideology to align themselves with, in order to address a multitude of fundamental inquiries and aspirations that arise on a daily basis, all from a singular source. The aforementioned religions fulfill this purpose. All three philosophies provide comprehensive shopping options, eliminating the necessity for seeking alternatives. The adherents of these ideologies assert their representation of divine authority and pledge an exclusive heavenly realm accessible solely to those who share their beliefs. The high level of certainty holds significant attraction for a wide range of individuals within contemporary society. The concept of certainty of result, advocated by all three religions, confers upon individuals the authority to pass judgment on those whom they perceive as inferior. When an individual perceives themselves as adhering to a better standard of living than others in their immediate surroundings, they may feel compelled to assert that their lifestyle is much superior to that of others. The individuals in question may express the belief that while attaining a place in heaven is possible, it may not necessarily entail reaching the farthest celestial realm. Furthermore, they assert their purpose as being dedicated to defending the divine cause, as they anticipate a future period wherein global recognition will be bestowed upon themselves and their associates for their accurate understanding, while others will be deemed erroneous. The level of confidence in question possesses a captivating quality. It is rather straightforward to persuade an individual of the superiority of one's ideology when one holds such a profound belief in it that their unwavering commitment to that ideology becomes palpable in their demeanor. 

 

Select any religious belief system, irrespective of whether it pertains to Mormonism, that espouses the notion of its contemporary existence for the purpose of establishing a divine theocratic order on Earth, and...

 

9 minutes ago, Joshua said:

...one will observe a level of dedication...

It looks to me that the "level of dedication" issue is key to addressing our brother @Navidad's questions.

 

If the LDS Church were to say that all baptisms were basically alike, they would be taking a huge step toward becoming a generic church. That would remove a lot of the motivation for the high level of dedication.

 

And to my LDS friends who live out that high level of dedication, I say, Kudos 👍

 

9 minutes ago, Joshua said:

...that necessitates unwavering adherence to its prescribed teachings and beliefs. Any religious belief system that demands complete obedience and teaches that blessings are exclusively attainable via compliance. By considering the functioning of the human mind, it becomes apparent that embracing an ideology that demands unwavering loyalty might foster the development of spiritual narcissism as a prevailing characteristic within an individual's personality. 

PS I'd love to be able to quote just part of a post, but the browser on my phone won't allow it 😡

[Leaf474]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I assume you are aware of the Second Great Awakening, during which many were searching for spiritual answers and a new spiritual home.

I've heard of it, I wasn't sure what it was. Thanks for the input!

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

I've heard of it, I wasn't sure what it was. Thanks for the input!

I found something that might be useful for you to see The Great Awakening from a more academic LDS view, though I am not sure what it is.  It looks like a class outline, but it is adrift from others like it as far as I can tell, so I don’t know what class and I wasn’t aware that the JSPP had produced one…quite cool.  May do a bit of searching to see if I can find out what it is today, but got to get moving soon…birthdays party tonight and family coming.

 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/articles/early-visions-and-frontier-revivalism

added:  that was easier than I expected

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/articles/curriculum

Quote

These outlines were developed as one-day lessons for use by secondary instructors and university professors. They may be appropriate for AP U.S. History and college-level U.S. history surveys and religious history courses and can be adapted to fit the needs of different classes. These lesson plans place the content of the Joseph Smith Papers in a broader social and historical context, focused around a particular topic such as Euro-American relations with Indians or religious revivalism in the early nineteenth century. These lesson plans are centered on historical documents and may be especially useful for introducing students to reading and analyzing primary sources. If you have questions or suggestions about these lesson plans, please contact us.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

This is how LDS see how Joseph was motivated to start the Church, though at the time he was not aware that was where it was headed…

The Great Awakening from the limited POV of young Joseph (this is the first chapter of the first volume of the four volume Saints, the current church history text the Church put out not that long ago which draws on current and better scholarship for the history), the next chapter is about his First Vision, Chapter 8 is the founding of the Church.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1/01-ask-in-faith?lang=eng#p37

Let me know if you want to spend more effort, there are some good biographies out there.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

How can other people be truly defined as inferior when they are seen as God’s literal children?  There is a difference between having inferior understanding (having more incomplete or incorrect ideas) and having an inferior nature.  Saints who understand the Restored Gospel do not believe nonmembers have inferior natures.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng#title1

While there may some Saints who choose to look at others as inferior (including due to some mistaken teachings of our own that have been repudiated as false teachings when we received additional revelation), they are ignoring their own faith’s teachings when doing so.

I definitely don't want this to take on a debate kind of atmosphere, so I'm asking this more as a kind of "I felt this way (sometimes still do), do you sometimes feel this way" kind of question:

 

Does the knowledge that you understand things better than most other Christians give you a kind of positive mental state? It certainly did that for me when I was an overt Pentecostal.

 

I've always had the sense that God speaks to me directly, and in my late teens I began a course of serious Bible study. I would sometimes find doctrines or combinations of doctrines that the bulk of Christianity seemed to have missed. It felt really good to know that I was one of the few to whom God had revealed his special truths.

 

Galatians 5 talks about the lusts of the flesh, which include divisions and heresies. I remember one day when I had been studying church history and it hit me that the feeling that I was having about being a member of the "top group" was probably the same feeling that heretical groups like the Aryans had.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Does the knowledge that you understand things better than most other Christians give you a kind of positive mental state? It certainly did that for me when I was an overt Pentecostal.

Nope, because I believe there will likely be some teachings of Christ they either understand or at least act on better than I do.  
 

I don’t really compare the quality of my beliefs to the quality of other Christians.  I don’t remember ever doing that because my mother had shared her interest in Swedenborg and other religious thinkers with me starting when I was ten or eleven, I believe, but I may have as a teen because, you know, teens…

In my early twenties and thirties, I wouldn’t have compared because I recognized I didn’t know the beliefs of others to compare; by the time I knew enough beliefs, I also knew a lot more nonmembers and their faithfulness to Christ was obvious to me and I never felt a need to compare.

I am guilty of comparing my knowledge of church doctrine and history to other Saints and probably there need to do some repenting still.   (Been humbled enough, I should know better with this as well)

Quote

I've always had the sense that God speaks to me directly, and in my late teens I began a course of serious Bible study. I would sometimes find doctrines or combinations of doctrines that the bulk of Christianity seemed to have missed. It felt really good to know that I was one of the few to whom God had revealed his special truths.

I just get excited by new ideas and want to share them to see what others think about them, get their insights and feedback.

My sins of pride are in other areas, more secular arenas.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

 

"Spiritual narcissism" - interesting idea.

 

If we consider the COJCOLDS, JW's, and SDA's, one trait they all have in common is that they all started in the 19th century, centered around a prophet figure. They also all have in the general neighborhood of 20 million adherents.

 

If we trace the beginning of the SDA'S and JW's to William Miller, they all started in the general neighborhood of 1840.

 

(Does any of the above demonstrate truth or falsehood? No. But it is very interesting imo.)

 

 

Also, Josh uses standard "anti" questions and language and the posts read like standard "anti" stuff because he doesn't understand the Doctrine and uses standard (anti) terminology, like "Mormon Church" to communicate with us, and contrasts us with "Christians" when we ARE Christians

Yawn.

1957 all over again.

Your average troll.

All it will be is an endless diatribe we have all heard before.

Every religion (including ecology/ save the whales etc.) in the world thinks they are right including this guy.

Meh

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This is how LDS see how Joseph was motivated to start the Church, though at the time he was not aware that was where it was headed…

The Great Awakening from the limited POV of young Joseph (this is the first chapter of the first volume of the four volume Saints, the current church history text the Church put out not that long ago which draws on current and better scholarship for the history), the next chapter is about his First Vision, Chapter 8 is the founding of the Church.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1/01-ask-in-faith?lang=eng#p37

Let me know if you want to spend more effort, there are some good biographies out there.

I think I'm good for now, but thank you so much for the research ❤️

[Leaf474]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Also, Josh uses standard "anti" questions and language and the posts read like standard "anti" stuff because he doesn't understand the Doctrine and uses standard (anti) terminology, like "Mormon Church" to communicate with us, and contrasts us with "Christians" when we ARE Christians

Yawn.

1957 all over again.

Your average troll.

All it will be is an endless diatribe we have all heard before.

Every religion (including ecology/ save the whales etc.) in the world thinks they are right including this guy.

Meh

 

 

Thanks for the input ❤️

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

I think I'm good for now, but thank you so much for the research ❤️

I do it for myself as much as others in most cases.  I often learn something new.

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ❤️

 

[Anakin7]

From my LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Archives - which I believe LDS and non-LDS can share a belief of Water Baptism as necessary for True Salvation - https://www.bebaptized.org . Of course, True Authority to do so is required as well.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Anakin7

[Leaf474]

5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

From my LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Archives - which I believe LDS and non-LDS can share a belief of Water Baptism as necessary for True Salvation - https://www.bebaptized.org . Of course, True Authority to do so is required as well.

 

 

FWIW, a big difference between LDS and non-LDS views is about that True Authority. All the non-LDS groups I know of will recognize a baptism performed by anyone. In extreme circumstances, even an atheist can do it.

 

In ordinary circumstances, it's usually done by a pastor or priest.

 

As I understand it, the non-LDS idea is that it's God that's actually doing the baptizing, so not critical who is "performing" it.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

FWIW, a big difference between LDS and non-LDS views is about that True Authority. All the non-LDS groups I know of will recognize a baptism performed by anyone. In extreme circumstances, even an atheist can do it.

 

In ordinary circumstances, it's usually done by a pastor or priest.

 

As I understand it, the non-LDS idea is that it's God that's actually doing the baptizing, so not critical who is "performing" it.

I think Catholics don't accept LDS baptism (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html).

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I think Catholics don't accept LDS baptism (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html).

No, they don't, and maybe I should have clarified 😀

 

If you want to be confirmed in the Catholic Church, and you were baptized by some other group (or maybe even an atheist), they will accept your baptism as long as it was done with the trinitarian formulation.

 

The person doing the baptizing isn't critical, the trinitarian part is.

 

My guess is that's why they won't accept an LDS baptism - it's the Trinity issue.

_______________

Edit: And now having read the actual document in your link, instead of just talking off the top of my head 😄, I see this quote

"There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity."

 

That appears to me to be the issue. The words are the same, but the meaning attached to those words is so different that it doesn't really amount to a trinitarian formulation. That's my take away from the article, thanks for posting it!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Leaf474

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

If you want to be confirmed in the Catholic Church, and you were baptized by some other group (or maybe even an atheist), they will accept your baptism as long as it was done with the trinitarian formulation.

And understanding. We say almost the same thing and yet are not accepted (and reasonably so imo):

Quote

 I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Quote

Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Added:  oops, didn’t read past the line, thought it was a new subtopic

Edited November 9, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

And understanding. We say almost the same thing and yet are not accepted (and reasonably so imo):

Added:  oops, didn’t read past the line, thought it was a new subtopic

It's all good, and I hear what you're saying!