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Does the Bible Prophesy About the Israel/Hamas War?


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8 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

 

It's kind of strange we didn't have the whole world worried about a humanitarian disaster when Russia invaded Ukraine.

I remember the Ukraine crisis differently than you do apparently.

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The war in Ukraine has spiralled into a fully-fledged humanitarian catastrophe.

Heavy fighting and attacks continue to endanger the lives of civilians and cause severe damage to housing, water and electricity supply, heating, and public infrastructure such as schools and health facilities. Millions of people have limited or no access to basic services.

The EU has mobilised all available resources to enable emergency assistance into Ukraine.

https://civil-protection-humanitarian-aid.ec.europa.eu/where/europe/ukraine_en#:~:text=Introduction,as schools and health facilities.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-refugees-aid

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How Bad Is Ukraine’s Humanitarian Crisis a Year Later? 

By Diana Roy

Last updated June 8, 2023 11:40 am (EST)

A year after Russia’s invasion, Ukraine is suffering a catastrophic humanitarian crisis. The outflow of millions of refugees has placed a strain on neighboring countries.

https://disasterphilanthropy.org/disasters/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis/
 

There is tons more.

Edited by Calm
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29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yeah I guess I was asleep at the wheel. I just don't remember all of the protest.

Edited by rodheadlee
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22 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So, you're not LDS? I shouldn't trust the notes in the headers of my LDS scriptures?

Some are wrong.  They are the result of traditional interpretation and scholarship and not revelation.  They did their best, but mistakes were made.  Thankfully, the Church isn’t locked into keeping the headings unchanged.  :) 

And sometimes the scholarship is out of date, similar to the Bible Dictionary.  They are study aids and not meant to be seen as scripture.  They changed the headings for the 1981 edition and I believe the online version might not always match the print as I understand they updated some when LDS.org was updated.  I haven’t bought new scriptures for a couple of decades, unless you count the academic commentaries, so I can’t compare online to what is printed these days.  Wouldn’t surprise me if they were updated and I missed it or forgot about them.

http://www.blacklatterdaysaints.org/changes-to-lds-scripture-headings-footnotes

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Here is what Bruce McConkie himself wrote on the nature of the chapter headings to the LDS Scriptures:
 

[As for the] Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only. (Mark McConkie, ed. Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989], 289-90 emphasis added)

 

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2016/05/bruce-mcconkie-on-fallibility-of.html

Edited by Calm
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13 hours ago, rpn said:

I'm not going to assume it is end times until our prophet says something is meeting a prophecy in official situation.   We don't need anyone to tell us that there are wars and rumors of wars ---- that's been true in all of recorded mortal existence (and likely in unrecorded existence too.

The LDS prophets are, like everyone else, are caught off guard regarding severe world events (covid, wars, natural disasters) and then they often don't have much to say about it.  Clearly their guidance as to such things is worthless.  If they really are prophets they are doing a poor job and prophesying.

Edited by Teancum
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11 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, but was this intended by the original author or is it a case of likening scriptures to ourselves?

By "this" I assume you mean the phrase "last days" referring to the times the author lived in, and "author" to refer to the writer of scripture (or what is to become accepted as scripture). I think the authors meant it that way since that was their language and their message first applied to the saints they were addressing.

At the same time, the author, speaking to eternal principle, understands that prophecy will be likened by any wise future saints, or that it will serve as a template or catalyst for someone reading it to receive a personal message from the Holy Ghost. And that the Lord will have prophets restored at some point after the first desolation of abomination to help them interpret as necessary.

As far as today's Israel-Hamas events, "Yes," in that it is a war taking place in the last times (i.e., between first and second coming, yet after the first desolation of abomination), against which backdrop the gathering of Israel successfully persists according to the Book of Mormon prophecies, and we are to take heed and prepare ourselves for the Lord's coming accordingly. We walk with the Lord through terrible times and His light shines in darkness. He stands at the door and knocks and "cometh quickly" for those who open it (the same things that make us happy in this life will make us happy in the next, so the Lord comes then and now and will yet come. Any negative event, large or small, is a sign or witness of Christ as the faithful see or find Him shine in the darkness. But the big ones in our scripture stress the point.

As far as a specific Israel-Hamas play-by-play prophesy (and to what end?), "No," since there is insufficient time/place/purpose detail in the Bible such as D&C 87 provides (for example), which isn't much either.

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14 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Dan is speaking of the poorly understood verses that people are using to suggest that there is a prophecy dealing with Israel or Hamas. 

Would you mind providing those verses? The YouTube format isn't my cup of tea. Thank you!

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16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, there is something disturbing about the End-Timer types getting all giddy excited every time people start dying in the Middle East.

Despicable. Were they giddy when 911 occurred I wonder, because according to Biden's speech in Israel I'm watching at the moment and in the news outlets, Israel is experiencing fifteen 911's when put in context. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

:Would you mind providing those verses? The YouTube format isn't my cup of tea. Thank you!

Revelations 9:16,  Revelations 16:13, and Ezekiel 38.

 

Dan says the Revelation verses are only applicable to 1st century geo-political events.

Ezekiel 38 is about the Euphrates river supernaturally drying up which Dan says is not true, there is still water in it though it is lower and the lower water is easily explainable through climate change and dams.

 

It is just a 10 minute video and takes less time to listen to than it did to type up this response.

Edited by CA Steve
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45 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Revelations 9:16,  Revelations 16:13, and Ezekiel 38.

 

Dan says the Revelation verses are only applicable to 1st century geo-political events.

Ezekiel 38 is about the Euphrates river supernaturally drying up which Dan says is not true, there is still water in it though it is lower and the lower water is easily explainable through climate change and dams.

 

It is just a 10 minute video and takes less time to listen to than it did to type up this response.

I am not at all arguing with Dan about whether or not the Euphrates has dried up supernaturally. His explanation on that was perfect. Neither am I wondering if this verse could still somehow apply to the situation today even without the supernatural connotations.  But I did wonder about the use of the word supernatural and its application in the fulfillment of prophecy in general.

Was it the preacher who said that the Euphrates would dry up supernaturally or does it actually say that in the verse? I need to go and look it up and see what words are actually used.

Sometimes I know we interpret scripture as if it has to be fulfilled through supernatural means for it to come true but I think probably most of the time that’s not what it’s saying.  We like to make assumptions about what verses mean but forget that they are assumptions and interpretations.

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Joel talks about the Day of the Lord.

So does Amos in Chapter 5:

“Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. 

As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?”

That doesn’t sound like something anyone should be pining for.

Joel also talks about swarms of locusts and an invading foreign army. That doesn’t sound like the current situation which was a border attack and is now, in essence, a siege which is going to become a humanitarian disaster within the next few days.

FYI. I am not pining for it. I have dreams, visions, nightmares about the streets filled with dead bodies and nuclear weapons going off in L.A. harbor. I can only hope that I am at ground zero. It still isn't the end of time.

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7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Was it the preacher who said that the Euphrates would dry up supernaturally or does it actually say that in the verse? I need to go and look it up and see what words are actually used.

The preacher said it had dried up supernaturally. Dan said it still had water in it and no supernatural explanation was required to explain why it was lower.

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1 minute ago, CA Steve said:

The preacher said it had dried up supernaturally. Dan said it still had water in it and no supernatural explanation was required to explain why it was lower.

Yes, I watched the video. I was wondering if the preacher is quoting the verse when he says supernatural or if he came up with that on his own. I need to go look at the verse. I just haven’t had a chance yet.

but I’m guessing (could be wrong) that he came up with the “supernatural” requirement on his own.

I think, sometimes we assume prophecy must come to pass through supernatural means, when most of the time, I don’t think that’s the case. The prophecy might come to pass through very explainable means. It doesn’t mean it’s not prophecy.

(And again, I’m not arguing at all with what Dent has said in the video about those specific prophecies. I think his response to the preacher is spot on. I’m just speaking in general on how our interpretations of prophecy sometimes aren’t rooted in anything other than assumption on how it has to work.)

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Revelations 9:16,  Revelations 16:13, and Ezekiel 38.

 

Dan says the Revelation verses are only applicable to 1st century geo-political events.

Ezekiel 38 is about the Euphrates river supernaturally drying up which Dan says is not true, there is still water in it though it is lower and the lower water is easily explainable through climate change and dams.

 

It is just a 10 minute video and takes less time to listen to than it did to type up this response.

Thank you. I have it on good authority that this is where the expression “Gog a Magog with a spoon” came from.

I take these kinds of scripture to be metaphorical, which doesn’t make them any less real in application once properly recognized, since signs can be in the form of both symbols and events which in turn can refer to each other. I think they are functionally metaphorical due to the issues with terminology and translation along the timeline from Ezekiel's putting "pen to paper", to the earliest preservation available (often centuries afterward and perhaps inadequately). through the eye of tradition, and then interpreted into more modern languages.

In the case of the verses you listed, I find the overarching message is to be an invitation or warning to be prepared for the Lord ensuring the gathering of His people as it continues to be threatened, which is also the theme of more detailed, prophesied events found elsewhere, particularly in the Book of Mormon and D&C.

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18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, I watched the video. I was wondering if the preacher is quoting the verse when he says supernatural or if he came up with that on his own. I need to go look at the verse. I just haven’t had a chance yet.

but I’m guessing (could be wrong) that he came up with the “supernatural” requirement on his own.

I think, sometimes we assume prophecy must come to pass through supernatural means, when most of the time, I don’t think that’s the case. The prophecy might come to pass through very explainable means. It doesn’t mean it’s not prophecy.

(And again, I’m not arguing at all with what Dent has said in the video about those specific prophecies. I think his response to the preacher is spot on. I’m just speaking in general on how our interpretations of prophecy sometimes aren’t rooted in anything other than assumption on how it has to work.)

"12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."

"Supernatural" is not mentioned here. 

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9 hours ago, CV75 said:

"12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."

"Supernatural" is not mentioned here. 

For some, most even, “angel”=“supernatural” though.

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10 hours ago, Calm said:

For some, most even, “angel”=“supernatural” though.

Yes, it does. I took the question to be as to whether "supernatural" was used as an interpretive description of the message or part of the text. For me, angels and their powers are perfectly natural. I think the word "angel" as used in this verse is allegorical, but if not, describes a natural person(age) and event. The river drying up has happened quite a number of times throughout history, including 2014 when Turkey cut off the flow entirely (into Syria and Iran). What an angel!

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On 10/17/2023 at 10:09 PM, rodheadlee said:

Does anyone care to comment on the Book of Joel? It specifies that it precedes the Second Coming. Also I don't know why they call it the end times? To me it's the beginning of a beautiful Thousand Years.

President Gordon B. Hinckley, in his initial October 2001 General Conference talk, stated that the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled, wherein he states.... He then quotes Joel 2.

That one slipped by me when given until pointed out by someone else.  President Joseph Fielding Smith stated in the 1960's that Joel's prophecy had not yet been fulfilled.

So there you go, a prophet helping you know when an end time prophecy was finally fulfilled.

I've been listening closer since I learned that instance in 2002, after the fact, due to being in a cinnamon roll stupor in 2001.

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1 hour ago, supersc said:

President Gordon B. Hinckley, in his initial October 2001 General Conference talk, stated that the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled, wherein he states.... He then quotes Joel 2.

Full quotation please.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Full quotation please.

It is this.

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The era in which we live is the fulness of times spoken of in the scriptures, when God has brought together all of the elements of previous dispensations. From the day that He and His Beloved Son manifested themselves to the boy Joseph, there has been a tremendous cascade of enlightenment poured out upon the world. The hearts of men have turned to their fathers in fulfillment of the words of Malachi. The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call” (Joel 2:28–32).

 

I haven’t seen the sun go dark. I have seen a blood red moon a few times now.

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