In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost

[nuclearfuels]

 “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.”

- President Nelson

I like this. It holds promise and helps us focus. 

I'm curious about what type of current/future events might make the constant influence of the Holy Ghost necessary to survive spiritually.

- Another plandemic scamdemic pandemic?

- natural disasters?

- War?

- Recession/Depression?

- Something else?

[MustardSeed]

Yes. 

[MustardSeed]

I think all those things are symbolic description of spiritual destruction. 

[10THAmendment]

Just look at how most of society and even a certain percentage of members now view the Family Proclamation as “hate speech”. 
 

If the adversary could have confused the majority about such simple doctrine imagine what is coming next. Hold firm to the iron rod and pray for discernment in all things. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm curious about what type of current/future events might make the constant influence of the Holy Ghost necessary to survive spiritually.

- Another plandemic scamdemic pandemic?

- natural disasters?

- War?

- Recession/Depression?

- Something else?

 

The growing numbers of people unable or unwilling to do things like define "woman", or say "drag shows don't belong in middle school" out loud.  And the continuing polarization of our culture around such increasingly divisive issues with consequences that grow increasingly severe.  One of the consequences being that nobody knows what truth is anymore.  So you go to church and try to get some spiritual confirmation that truth is actually something that exists, as opposed to a method of controlling historically marginalized peoples by the colonizer patriarchy.   

(You laugh, but I hang around with people who think and speak in these terms.)

Edited October 5, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[rpn]

It's the Holy Ghost which can help us to figure out the right path and keep us steady on it.   Doesn't matter the circumstances.     I've been a member my entire life, with all of the normal milestones.   And with several pretty powerful experiences that taught me without question that my Heavenly Father knew me personally in each of life's moments.   It wasn't until about six months into my excommunication (having not lived any of the commandments except tithing for years) that I first understood what a huge difference the Holy Ghost makes for us.  I didn't make friends as easily, colors weren't as distinctive, relationships were harder to develop and easier to mess up, figuring out what to do was much harder, as was getting to do it (no none of this was depression or any mental illness, I'd already had CBT by then and knew how to think healthy).  So was seeing the good in others, and recognizing evil.   And time management.  And a lot of other things.

  Then I read Parley P. Pratt's quote:  “The gift of the Holy Ghost...quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands, and purifies all the natural passions and affections, and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates, and matures all the fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings, and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness, and charity. It develops beauty of person, form, and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation, and social feeling. It invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being.”

I didn't feel anything dramatic when I was rebaptized, and I don't often experience the Holy Ghost in any way I recognize as such (and almost always when it does happen it is about helping someone else).   But it is pretty clear to me that the gift of the Holy Ghost matters  (ETA and that it is omnipresent in ways that are concrete even if without distinction in the moment).  (And when I'm talking to someone who has walked away from church belief or services,  I tell them that if they don't do anything that will require a membership withdrawal and they don't resign, they retain the gift of the Holy Ghost and whether it is obvious or not, IT MATTERS.)

Edited October 5, 2023 by rpn

[pogi]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

 “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.”

- President Nelson

I like this. It holds promise and helps us focus. 

I'm curious about what type of current/future events might make the constant influence of the Holy Ghost necessary to survive spiritually.

- Another plandemic scamdemic pandemic?

- natural disasters?

- War?

- Recession/Depression?

- Something else?

I like his plea to increase spiritual capacity to receive revelation.  I think that is and will continue to be extremely important.   

Some questions I have:

- Is it really going to be an all or nothing thing, like he postulates?  Either you have the 100% "constant companionship" of the Holy Ghost, or it 100% not "possible to survive spiritually"?

- Does anyone you know always have the "constant companionship of the Holy Ghost"?

- Are all non-members doomed to spiritual death in the latter-days?  That seems to be the unavoidable conclusion of what he says here.

- Is this going to cause more anxiety and lost hope when people try their hardest and fail to attain "constant companionship"?   

 

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

(And when I'm talking to someone who has walked away from church belief or services,  I tell them that if they don't do anything that will require a membership withdrawal and they don't resign, they retain the gift of the Holy Ghost and whether it is obvious or not, IT MATTERS.)

I have a friend who was excommunicated and she said much the same thing, though not as precise or as elegant. 
 

Her excommunication was after a confession with an intent to repent and she was rebaptized a year later. I think those who see excommunication as a time for repentance are more likely to become aware of such differences than those who get excommunicated as a result of behaviour arising from a loss of faith.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

constant companionship of the Holy Ghost"?

I see that as ritual language rather than mathematical, so to speak. 

[MustardSeed]

This can make me so sad, because my son had his name removed.  
 

So to not be sad, I have to temper my beliefs.  Elsewise I’ll be sucked into despair. It’s more doable to dismiss the belief and instead to trust what makes sense to me, that we all have the same value, the same access to goodness and guidance, the same opportunities if we want them. That folks who technically are on the rosters don’t automatically have extra perks that my loving kind mature responsible humble son doesn’t have access to. That will not work for my mental health. 

[rpn]

Deleted

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by rpn

[LoudmouthMormon]

If you reject spiritual things, you will have the exact same number of spiritual experiences as believing faithful practicing folks?  Is that the notion?
 

That may be a comforting thought for someone with a loved one in that situation, but I’m not sure it’s much more than a comforting thought.  
 

@MustardSeed, I am in the same boat with a child. I would say that the blessings and promises available through spiritual things are just as available to our wayward kids as they are to our faithful kids.  That said, those blessings and promises will only rarely be forced on anyone who doesn’t want them and rejects them.

Another way to put it, I was born into a church I never believed. I left as soon as I could get away with it and my mommy couldn’t make me go anymore. But I was very aware, and very envious, of the extra “something“ my Mormon friends and relatives had. I yearned for their certainty, their steadfastness, their ability to have the world already figured out and know their place in it. And the nonjudgmental love they showed me and each other, was far different than the nonjudgmental acceptance I got from my heathen buddies.  I had to work really hard for my testimony. But once I had it, I have gone periods of my life where the Holy Ghost is my constant companion.  Before that, I only received occasional visits, most of which I did not recognize until 10 years of hindsight.

My kiddo hasn’t had her name removed. I don’t have the faintest  clue if she’s got more access than your son.  I do know that your and my actions are not dependent on the answer to that question.  I will keep my fingers crossed for your kiddo. Please return the favor.

[CA Steve]

This comes across to me as more 'we are in the last days" rhetoric that is just a repeat of what has been said for 2000 years. 

What will be different in "the coming days" that we have not seen in the past?

Edited October 5, 2023 by CA Steve

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

The growing numbers of people unable or unwilling to do things like define "woman", or say "drag shows don't belong in middle school" out loud.  And the continuing polarization of our culture around such increasingly divisive issues with consequences that grow increasingly severe.  One of the consequences being that nobody knows what truth is anymore.  So you go to church and try to get some spiritual confirmation that truth is actually something that exists, as opposed to a method of controlling historically marginalized peoples by the colonizer patriarchy.   

(You laugh, but I hang around with people who think and speak in these terms.)

It is amazing how corruption is increasing, spiteful hatred is on the rise, and somehow the big problem is the small minority of trangender people and the many lies being told about them. God is going to burn the world because they exist and not the more generalized and obvious sin.

Hmmm…..I wonder who benefits the most from placing the blame there?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This can make me so sad, because my son had his name removed.  
 

So to not be sad, I have to temper my beliefs.  Elsewise I’ll be sucked into despair. It’s more doable to dismiss the belief and instead to trust what makes sense to me, that we all have the same value, the same access to goodness and guidance, the same opportunities if we want them. That folks who technically are on the rosters don’t automatically have extra perks that my loving kind mature responsible humble son doesn’t have access to. That will not work for my mental health. 

I said I was going to leave, but I wanted to catch up at least and of course I can’t keep my mouth shut….

I do believe that the Gift of the Holy Ghost does give those who have it access to things those who don’t do not have access to.  But I also believe there are plenty of other gifts of the spirit that are available to all who seek them which fills people’s needs and gives them the range and depth of spiritual experience they need and desire in the same way I believe having the opportunity to go to college full time provides a unique opportunity to learn you can’t really find elsewhere, yet there are plenty who learn as much, if not more because they benefit just as much from using non traditional schooling or studying on their own.  

What one ultimately achieves is less dependent on the tools one chooses to use and more dependent how serious one is about developing one’s skills and how open one is to learning from what is there to teach one, whether of the Spirit or secular things.  (Mixing my metaphors now, but let’s pretend by college I meant art school.). The artistry of someone working with very basic skills learned by trial and error can shine much stronger than someone who is using the latest technology even if highly creative and skilled because the former artist has somehow tapped into a universal experience of beauty or pain, something that somehow most of us respond to on a deep, maybe even instinctual level.

God would not be merciful or loving if he prevented spiritual growth in those who do not accept the gospel given the vast majority of humanity have never been given that choice.  Logically if God is no respecter of persons, he must be providing ways to have just as spiritually meaningful lives to nonmembers of all kinds as he does to members even if it is on a different part of the path back to him.

Those who do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost still may be able to tap in the Spirit in other ways and in that way see their world in a greater clarity than before.  The brighter colors, the more intense experiences that they experience will be different, but can be at least as meaningful and enriching.

As someone born in the Church, I will never have the experience of not having the Restored Gospel in my life and therefore I will never be able to walk under the light that shines through that different filter.  I learned different ways to experience the Spirit when a medication prevented me from feeling it internally and I believe the same would have occurred if I had lived as a youth and adult without the Gift as long as I was in some way seeking the Spirit, even if only instinctually.  But I am not going to be able to experience the Spirit as nonmembers do and that is a gap in my education, a very meaningful gap.  I would be better imo if I was able to have that experience, just as I would be a better person if I was able to have the experience of growing up as a Swede or  Mexican or a hundred other nationalities and not just as an American. But mortality imposes limitations and we impose other ones by our choices.  

God is not so limited (save in respecting our agency), so he has promised us in the end such limitations won’t matter.  And I trust that.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, pogi said:

Does anyone you know always have the "constant companionship of the Holy Ghost"?

In President Eyring's talk, he mentioned that constant companionship can be difficult.

Edited October 6, 2023 by mfbukowski

[filovirus]

In the BOM, believers in Christ were to be put to death if the sign of Christ's birth didn't happen. That's how much hatred the believers were receiving. As we get closer and closer to the second coming, it is going to get worse and worse Christians in general. We've already started to see some of it, as most denominations are losing members. The LDS church is holding somewhat steady, but more and more LDS will give into societal peer pressure and shy away from the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

Anecdotally I have heard that some companies will not hire BYU grads because it's a homophobic school.

[pogi]

What does he mean by "spiritual survival", do you think? 

I initially interpreted that to mean the common experience of having communion with the Spirit/ to be a spiritually based person and spiritually lead in life. 

Or is he saying something else?  Does he mean sinless, where sin = spiritual death?  In that sense, spiritual survival requires being sinless (an impossibility). 

If he means the latter, then I don't think I would have a problem with that statement.  But I don't know why he would be singling out the last days, or "days to come", as that is probably as true today as it ever has been.  

So, what does he mean by spiritual survival?  If he means the former, then no non-member (and most members) has any spiritual hope in the last days. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, filovirus said:

In the BOM, believers in Christ were to be put to death if the sign of Christ's birth didn't happen. That's how much hatred the believers were receiving. As we get closer and closer to the second coming, it is going to get worse and worse Christians in general. We've already started to see some of it, as most denominations are losing members. The LDS church is holding somewhat steady, but more and more LDS will give into societal peer pressure and shy away from the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

Anecdotally I have heard that some companies will not hire BYU grads because it's a homophobic school.

Isn’t it more likely that many of the other Christians will be among those wanting to do the killing? Just based on history.

[Navidad]

So how then will the other 98% of Christianity spiritually survive?

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So how then will the other 98% of Christianity spiritually survive?

I think this can be looked at in two ways (three ways, but one is s joke):

Those not within earshot get a pass.

Taking the long view, at Judgement Day, which is "in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost." Those who lack this gift now, Christian or not, will have the opportunity to obtain it eventually.

Taking say, a shorter 10-ish year timeframe and all things being equal, those who enjoy the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost will survive spiritually into the 11th year, and those who do not enjoy it will not, and considering the immediate audience, this applies to members of our Church as well as 100% of the world's population.

We also have to keep in mind that "not surviving" and "surviving" are experienced  by different people to varying degrees.

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

What does he mean by "spiritual survival", do you think? 

I initially interpreted that to mean the common experience of having communion with the Spirit/ to be a spiritually based person and spiritually lead in life. 

Or is he saying something else?  Does he mean sinless, where sin = spiritual death?  In that sense, spiritual survival requires being sinless (an impossibility). 

If he means the latter, then I don't think I would have a problem with that statement.  But I don't know why he would be singling out the last days, or "days to come", as that is probably as true today as it ever has been.  

So, what does he mean by spiritual survival?  If he means the former, then no non-member (and most members) has any spiritual hope in the last days. 

Given the following two paragraphs, spiritual survival to me means being able to successfully do the work required to recognize, in a positive way, "His mightiest works between now and when He comes again" and the "miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory." 

"Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

"My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation. Let this Easter Sunday be a defining moment in your life. Choose to do the spiritual work required to enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost and hear the voice of the Spirit more frequently and more clearly."

Revelation for the Church, Revelation for Our Lives (churchofjesuschrist.org)

Edited October 6, 2023 by CV75

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We also have to keep in mind that "not surviving" and "surviving" are experienced  by different people to varying degrees.

I can see how surviving can be experienced in different degrees where some may thrive, while others survive barely hang on.  On the other hand, how is "not surviving" experienced to varying degrees?   It seems to me that not surviving something = complete death of that thing.   Zero.  There are no degrees to nothing.  

If those who survive are required to have "the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost", how could they possibly not be thriving spiritually?   It comes off as black and white spiritual death or thriving as the only two options in the latter-latter-days. 

 

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I can see how surviving can be experienced in different degrees where some may thrive, while others survive barely hang on.  On the other hand, how is "not surviving" experienced to varying degrees?   It seems to me that not surviving something = complete death of that thing.   Zero.  There are no degrees to nothing.  

If those who survive are required to have "the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost", how could they possibly not be thriving spiritually?   It comes off as black and white spiritual death or thriving as the only two options in the latter-latter-days. 

 

I think it is a matter of perspective. To not survive spiritually enough to attend the temple is still sufficient survival to partake of the sacrament, but insufficient to say, gather with your dead ancestors which, if not repented of, will undermine your happiness in the next life.

The constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is different from "the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost" that President Nelson refers to. I cannot tell at what point the Spirit actually ceases striving with someone, but as long as He does, though perhaps resisted, there is some degree of companionship (a formal, doctrinal term associated with the gift of the Holy Ghost, a specific ordinance and privilege for members of the Church -- there's another thread on this distinction) and influence (which anyone can get). 

[The Nehor]

My reaction to that counsel: