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Tim Ballard


Calm

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Church leaders would be stupid to have a nonleader attack the truthfulness of the WoW as it would affect their credibility and the Church’s own credibility 

Agree 100%.

The claim that President Ballard had a “personal psychic” also strikes me as unbelievable and some sort of crazy attempt to tie the Church into this.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

The claim that President Ballard had a “personal psychic” also strikes me as unbelievable and some sort of crazy attempt to tie the Church into this.

I agree with this, though I think this is based on a personal bias/awareness of what type of men leaders are and trust, while the other is more just straight reason, logic that I would think even those who see the Church as a fraud and the leaders evil cult leaders would make the same observations.  I cannot think of any situation that book would be a positive thing for the Church.

If ABC4 misquoted and the lawsuit is claiming these were Tim Ballard’s claims, that I can see.

Edited by Calm
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37 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree with this, though I think this is based on a personal bias/awareness of what type of men leaders are and trust, while the other is more just straight reason, logic that I would think even those who see the Church as a fraud and the leaders evil cult leaders would make the same observations.  I cannot think of any situation that book would be a positive thing for the Church.

If ABC4 misquoted and the lawsuit is claiming these were Tim Ballard’s claims, that I can see.

I took it was coming from Tim the bozo. He's despicable. 

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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I took it was coming from Tim the bozo. He's despicable. 

My guess is he is likely the actual source assuming these were actual claim/justifications made.  And if the lawsuit approaches it that way, it looks credible to me.  If it instead assumes his grandiose claims are accurate even while portraying him as a first class manipulator/liar, it makes me doubt they are out for primarily justice for the victims and are more concerned with creating the most damaging picture possible rather than the true one of what happened…though maybe I am naive and this is what lawsuits are supposed to do?

The Church has deeper pockets than Tim Ballard, he has probably spent most of the money he got from everything as he seems to have an impulse control problem and there are a number of plaintiffs.  Dividing up what’s left of his assets isn’t likely to go far.

Pity the victims (assuming they are for real as far as the sexual assault and being misled by Ballard) can’t get a cut off of the movie, given the movie profited greatly off of Ballard’s frauds imo.  I wonder if Ballard is getting any ongoing income from it.  Was he a paid consultant or somehow otherwise financially connected with the movie?  Anyone know?

Edited by Calm
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Here's the ABC News article about the situation. Not sure what to believe. But after listening to the Special Edition of the ABC news right after watching American Idol last night, I did notice they said at the end that the church didn't give a statement. Maybe they will later. 

https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/ballard-victims-connection-lds-apostle/

Edited by Tacenda
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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe they will later. 

I highly highly doubt the church will make a statement. There is no way the church asked bozo the clown to write a book speaking for the church.  This is all, of course just my opinion!

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On 3/29/2024 at 7:29 AM, Smiley McGee said:

F006FFAF-A28A-4B7A-84F8-1CE98211C566.jpeg

"Jim Caviezel was on {fire}.  He called out {Pope} Francis for standing with the forces for evil."

Wow.

Here's a clip of Tim Ballard at this event:

Nothing in his speech about him and his family leaving the Church to join the Catholic faith.

Thanks,

-Smac

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50 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I highly highly doubt the church will make a statement. There is no way the church asked bozo the clown to write a book speaking for the church.  This is all, of course just my opinion!

Your opinion is right though!

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34 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Jim Caviezel was on {fire}.  He called out {Pope} Francis for standing with the forces for evil."

Wow.

Here's a clip of Tim Ballard at this event:

Nothing in his speech about him and his family leaving the Church to join the Catholic faith.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is something, my self didn't want to see. Why are people finding him anywhere credible. This is hard to stomach. The lies. 

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15 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

There was “news” tonight regarding the lawsuit against Tim Ballard.  It alleges that leaders of the Church encouraged Ballard to write a book declaring that the Word of Wisdom is not true. 

“Ballard was, fortuitously given his command to write a book for the Mormon Church declaring that the Word of Wisdom was not true doctrine, thus allowing him to consume excessive amounts of alcohol (tequila) of his own volition,” the lawsuit says.”

This is so far from believable it makes me question everything else about the lawsuit.

A few thoughts:

1. The case number is 230907617.  The original Complaint was filed on October 9, 2023, and the "{First} Amended Complaint" (replacing the first one) was filed on November 2, 2023.  

2. Per this news item, dated April 29, states that "over the weekend a new motion was filed asking for a hearing to allow more details to be entered into the case regarding an alleged relationship between him {Tim Ballard} and the late church leader, Russell M. Ballard {sic}."  This motion was filed on April 26, is 203 pages long, and can be downloaded here.  Almost all of the document is the proposed "First Amended Complaint," which seems to be an error since the Complaint was previously amended on November 2.  This "{Second} Amended Complaint" ("2AC") is only a proposed one, so it's not yet operative in the lawsuit.

3. Paragraph 12 of the 2AC states that "Slave Stealers, LLC, is a Utah Limited Liability Company owned by Defendant Tim Ballard, Brian Norton, and President M. Russell Ballard."  I have previously reviewed state records for this LLC, and I see no evidence that Pres. Ballard "owned" or had a membership interest in it.

4. The part of the 2AC pertaining to Pres. Ballard begins at paragraph 69.  The plaintiffs really go after him:

  • ¶ 72: President Ballard, a direct descendant of the founders of the Mormon Church, experienced repeated business failures in his life but was financially rescued by the Mormon Church and placed into leadership positions that ended with him being the third-most senior leader of the Mormon Church.
  • ¶ 73: Witnesses report that President Ballard was enamored by Tim Ballard’s faux history books regarding the “American Covenant.”
  • ¶ 74: President Ballard used his authority and position to recruit wealthy Mormon members, such as Brunson and Krogue, to provide business coaching and mentorship to Tim Ballard, as well as asking them to donate to Tim’s organizations, including OUR and the Spear Fund.
  • ¶ 78: Upon information and belief, President Ballard and/or Ken Krogue used psychic Janet Russon for readings to advise them of how they should proceed in all aspects of their lives.
  • ¶ 79: Some witnesses have claimed that Janet Russon was President Ballard’s personal psychic, and that President Ballard vouched for her psychic powers whenever people would question Ballard about using a psychic as his only source of locating trafficked children.
  • ¶ 80: President Ballard, Tim Ballard, and others, formed a private business, the defendant Slave Stealers, LLC (“Slave Stealers”), with its principal place of business being in President Ballard’s son-in-law’s offices, where the Ballards and other investors could monetize the purported work that OUR was performing using the missionary program of the Mormon Church as a template, and the Mormon Church networks as fundraising assembly lines.
  • ¶ 81: President Ballard leaned on his wealthy, tithing paying friends and pressured his peers in the Quorum of the Twelve and Seventy for significant donations to Slave Stealers to use.
  • ¶ 82: On behalf of Slave Stealers, Ballard would go out and produce “sizzle” through his several videos of faux rescues and dangerous looking situations, and then sell them to OUR, TNF, and now The Spear Fund, making it look like it was all being done on behalf of his nonprofit companies, when in fact it was to line his pockets and the pockets of President Ballard and the other owners of Slave Stealers, LLC.
  • ¶ 83: President Ballard sanctioned the COUPLES RUSE.
  • ¶ 84: President Ballard went on Ballard American History tours in order to prop-up Ballard’s for-profit enterprises.
  • ¶ 85: Upon information and belief, President Ballard and other leaders of the Mormon Church asked Tim Ballard to write a book declaring that the Word of Wisdom is not true. {}
  • ¶ 86: President Ballard has cited Tim Ballard to students at Brigham Young University Idaho, as an expert of Book of Mormon Prophet Nephi and the Mormon view of American History.
  • ¶ 87. Ballard has spoken to many Mormon Church groups across the country, including athletic teams at Brigham Young University.
  • ¶ 88. Ballard’s enmeshment with the Mormon Church and its leadership further provided him credibility and status in Utah, where the Mormon Church is the largest and founding denomination of the State.
  • ¶ 89. Ballard believed that a Special Witness of Jesus Christ was giving him direct instruction from Christ himself and was receiving readings and visions from Krogue and Russon that he would be a Prophet of the Church and President of the United States, which emboldened him to conduct the COUPLES RUSE, which was not used to find children, but was a ruse to commit sexual assaults of his COUPLES RUSE partners.
  • ¶ 90. In fact, after a drunken Tim Ballard went to Plaintiff Kira Lynch’s home late at night and raped her on the stairs, he called President Ballard and confessed to what he had done.
  • ¶ 91. President Ballard did not tell Tim Ballard to go to the police and report his horrible act.
  • ¶ 92. Rather, President Ballard told Ballard to do better at obeying the COUPLES RUSE rules.
  • ¶ 170: Ballard did claim that President M. Russell Ballard had given Ballard permission to do the COUPLES RUSE as long as there was no sexual intercourse or kissing on the lips, and had given him a special priesthood blessing as such.
  • ¶ 177: Ballard would insist that the women stay silent about their alleged sexual encounters with him because if they told anyone, it would put everyone’s lives at risk on the OPS mission, it was necessary to save the trafficked children, and because he was blessed by President Ballard to be a future President of the United States and then the Prophet of the Mormon Church.

As for the rest of the document . . . well, read it if you are a glutton for punishment.  "Sordid and salacious" would be an understatement.  Pretty dank and depressing reading.

5. Almost all of this stuff is hearsay attributed to unidentified "witnesses," or else gives no indication at all as to the source of the allegations against Pres. Ballard.  I suspect we will end up seeing that a lot of these allegations are based on A) rumor/gossip, B) hearsay (even multiple hearsay), and C) nothing at all.  There's no real downside to saying these horrible things about Pres. Ballard.  See here:

Quote

Claims made in a lawsuit may harm a defendant’s reputation, especially where the defendant is a professional, such as a lawyer or an accountant. The judicial privilege bars claims based upon allegations in a lawsuit, as well as statements made before the litigation is initiated, such as in a demand letter, as long as they relate to the judicial proceedings.

Under Utah law, “[a]n absolute privilege is granted to participants in judicial proceedings.” Price v. Armour, 949 P.2d 1251, 1256 (Utah 1997). This judicial privilege shields litigants from potential liability for defamation and encourages candor before the court. Id. The “judicial proceeding privilege extends not only to defamation claims but to ‘all claims arising from the same statements.’” DeBry v. Godbe, 1999 UT 111, ¶ 25, 992 P.2d 979, 986 (1999) (citing Price, 949 P.2d at 1258) (emphasis added). “Three elements must be satisfied for allegedly defamatory statements to qualify for an absolute privilege: (1) The statement must have been made during or in the course of a judicial proceeding; (2) the statement must have some reference to the subject matter of the proceeding; and (3) the statement must have been made by someone acting in the capacity of judge, juror, witness, litigant, or counsel.” Price, 949 P.2d at 1256.

Where the injury to its reputation flows from being exposed to legal claims, it follows that these are claims arising from the participation in this judicial proceeding and, accordingly, are barred by the doctrine of judicial privilege. See Debry, 1999 UT 111 at ¶ 25.

In other words, these folks can say whatever they like about Pres. Ballard in legal filings such as the 2AC.  Moreover, Pres. Ballard is dead, and so cannot defend himself.

In contrast to the foregoing allegations against Pres. Ballard (which, again, presently have no support in terms of probative evidence), see these remarks he made in 2017:

Quote
We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. We must be watchful and heed the counsel of Jesus to His disciples as He answered these questions: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [and I add woman] deceive you.”9
 
Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders.
 
Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.
 
Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.10
 
Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
 
Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.
 
In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.
 
An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”11
 
The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”12
 
Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.
___________
9. Matthew 24:3–4.
10. See Doctrine and Covenants 26:2; 28:13; 43:6–7.
11. Church spokesman Eric Hawkins, Sept. 2016.
12. Handbook 2, 21.3.6.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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On 2/3/2024 at 11:22 PM, The Nehor said:

As far as I am aware Ballard’s only countersuit is claiming Celeste Borys violated an NDA and a non-disparagement clause.

I think that action was filed by OUR, not Ballard.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

A few thoughts:

1. The case number is 230907617.  The original Complaint was filed on October 9, 2023, and the "{First} Amended Complaint" (replacing the first one) was filed on November 2, 2023.  

2. Per this news item, dated April 29, states that "over the weekend a new motion was filed asking for a hearing to allow more details to be entered into the case regarding an alleged relationship between him {Tim Ballard} and the late church leader, Russell M. Ballard {sic}."  This motion was filed on April 26, is 203 pages long, and can be downloaded here.  Almost all of the document is the proposed "First Amended Complaint," which seems to be an error since the Complaint was previously amended on November 2.  This "{Second} Amended Complaint" ("2AC") is only a proposed one, so it's not yet operative in the lawsuit.

3. Paragraph 12 of the 2AC states that "Slave Stealers, LLC, is a Utah Limited Liability Company owned by Defendant Tim Ballard, Brian Norton, and President M. Russell Ballard."  I have previously reviewed state records for this LLC, and I see no evidence that Pres. Ballard "owned" or had a membership interest in it.

4. The part of the 2AC pertaining to Pres. Ballard begins at paragraph 69.  The plaintiffs really go after him:

  • ¶ 72: President Ballard, a direct descendant of the founders of the Mormon Church, experienced repeated business failures in his life but was financially rescued by the Mormon Church and placed into leadership positions that ended with him being the third-most senior leader of the Mormon Church.
  • ¶ 73: Witnesses report that President Ballard was enamored by Tim Ballard’s faux history books regarding the “American Covenant.”
  • ¶ 74: President Ballard used his authority and position to recruit wealthy Mormon members, such as Brunson and Krogue, to provide business coaching and mentorship to Tim Ballard, as well as asking them to donate to Tim’s organizations, including OUR and the Spear Fund.
  • ¶ 78: Upon information and belief, President Ballard and/or Ken Krogue used psychic Janet Russon for readings to advise them of how they should proceed in all aspects of their lives.
  • ¶ 79: Some witnesses have claimed that Janet Russon was President Ballard’s personal psychic, and that President Ballard vouched for her psychic powers whenever people would question Ballard about using a psychic as his only source of locating trafficked children.
  • ¶ 80: President Ballard, Tim Ballard, and others, formed a private business, the defendant Slave Stealers, LLC (“Slave Stealers”), with its principal place of business being in President Ballard’s son-in-law’s offices, where the Ballards and other investors could monetize the purported work that OUR was performing using the missionary program of the Mormon Church as a template, and the Mormon Church networks as fundraising assembly lines.
  • ¶ 81: President Ballard leaned on his wealthy, tithing paying friends and pressured his peers in the Quorum of the Twelve and Seventy for significant donations to Slave Stealers to use.
  • ¶ 82: On behalf of Slave Stealers, Ballard would go out and produce “sizzle” through his several videos of faux rescues and dangerous looking situations, and then sell them to OUR, TNF, and now The Spear Fund, making it look like it was all being done on behalf of his nonprofit companies, when in fact it was to line his pockets and the pockets of President Ballard and the other owners of Slave Stealers, LLC.
  • ¶ 83: President Ballard sanctioned the COUPLES RUSE.
  • ¶ 84: President Ballard went on Ballard American History tours in order to prop-up Ballard’s for-profit enterprises.
  • ¶ 85: Upon information and belief, President Ballard and other leaders of the Mormon Church asked Tim Ballard to write a book declaring that the Word of Wisdom is not true. {}
  • ¶ 86: President Ballard has cited Tim Ballard to students at Brigham Young University Idaho, as an expert of Book of Mormon Prophet Nephi and the Mormon view of American History.
  • ¶ 87. Ballard has spoken to many Mormon Church groups across the country, including athletic teams at Brigham Young University.
  • ¶ 88. Ballard’s enmeshment with the Mormon Church and its leadership further provided him credibility and status in Utah, where the Mormon Church is the largest and founding denomination of the State.
  • ¶ 89. Ballard believed that a Special Witness of Jesus Christ was giving him direct instruction from Christ himself and was receiving readings and visions from Krogue and Russon that he would be a Prophet of the Church and President of the United States, which emboldened him to conduct the COUPLES RUSE, which was not used to find children, but was a ruse to commit sexual assaults of his COUPLES RUSE partners.
  • ¶ 90. In fact, after a drunken Tim Ballard went to Plaintiff Kira Lynch’s home late at night and raped her on the stairs, he called President Ballard and confessed to what he had done.
  • ¶ 91. President Ballard did not tell Tim Ballard to go to the police and report his horrible act.
  • ¶ 92. Rather, President Ballard told Ballard to do better at obeying the COUPLES RUSE rules.
  • ¶ 170: Ballard did claim that President M. Russell Ballard had given Ballard permission to do the COUPLES RUSE as long as there was no sexual intercourse or kissing on the lips, and had given him a special priesthood blessing as such.
  • ¶ 177: Ballard would insist that the women stay silent about their alleged sexual encounters with him because if they told anyone, it would put everyone’s lives at risk on the OPS mission, it was necessary to save the trafficked children, and because he was blessed by President Ballard to be a future President of the United States and then the Prophet of the Mormon Church.

As for the rest of the document . . . well, read it if you are a glutton for punishment.  "Sordid and salacious" would be an understatement.  Pretty dank and depressing reading.

5. Almost all of this stuff is hearsay attributed to unidentified "witnesses," or else gives no indication at all as to the source of the allegations against Pres. Ballard.  I suspect we will end up seeing that a lot of these allegations are based on A) rumor/gossip, B) hearsay (even multiple hearsay), and C) nothing at all.  There's no real downside to saying these horrible things about Pres. Ballard.  See here:

In other words, these folks can say whatever they like about Pres. Ballard in legal filings such as the 2AC.  Moreover, Pres. Ballard is dead, and so cannot defend himself.

In contrast to the foregoing allegations against Pres. Ballard (which, again, presently have no support in terms of probative evidence), see these remarks he made in 2017:

Thanks,

-Smac

In my mind's eye, I think these statements would be from the accusers of Tim Ballard and that it is what Tim told these women in order to get them to go along with what he wanted from them in being a married couple. He lied to them, it's so clear to me. 

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6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my mind's eye, I think these statements would be from the accusers of Tim Ballard and that it is what Tim told these women in order to get them to go along with what he wanted from them in being a married couple. He lied to them, it's so clear to me. 

Odd, then, that these women would parrot Tim Ballard's purported misrepresentations as if they were factual:

  • President Ballard was enamored by Tim Ballard’s faux history books...
  • President Ballard used his authority and position to recruit wealthy Mormon members...
  • President Ballard and/or Ken Krogue used psychic Janet Russon for readings to advise them...
  • President Ballard, Tim Ballard, and others, formed a private business, the defendant Slave Stealers, LLC...
  • President Ballard leaned on his wealthy, tithing paying friends and pressured his peers in the Quorum of the Twelve and Seventy...
  • President Ballard sanctioned the COUPLES RUSE.
  • President Ballard and other leaders of the Mormon Church asked Tim Ballard to write a book declaring that the Word of Wisdom is not true.
  • President Ballard did not tell Tim Ballard to go to the police and report his horrible act.
  • President Ballard told Ballard to do better at obeying the COUPLES RUSE rules.

Some of these sound more gossipy than hearsay.

Also: "Some witnesses have claimed that Janet Russon was President Ballard’s personal psychic, and that President Ballard vouched for her psychic powers whenever people would question Ballard about using a psychic as his only source of locating trafficked children."

I wonder who these "witnesses" are.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Odd, then, that these women would parrot Tim Ballard's purported misrepresentations as if they were factual:

  • President Ballard was enamored by Tim Ballard’s faux history books...
  • President Ballard used his authority and position to recruit wealthy Mormon members...
  • President Ballard and/or Ken Krogue used psychic Janet Russon for readings to advise them...
  • President Ballard, Tim Ballard, and others, formed a private business, the defendant Slave Stealers, LLC...
  • President Ballard leaned on his wealthy, tithing paying friends and pressured his peers in the Quorum of the Twelve and Seventy...
  • President Ballard sanctioned the COUPLES RUSE.
  • President Ballard and other leaders of the Mormon Church asked Tim Ballard to write a book declaring that the Word of Wisdom is not true.
  • President Ballard did not tell Tim Ballard to go to the police and report his horrible act.
  • President Ballard told Ballard to do better at obeying the COUPLES RUSE rules.

Some of these sound more gossipy than hearsay.

Also: "Some witnesses have claimed that Janet Russon was President Ballard’s personal psychic, and that President Ballard vouched for her psychic powers whenever people would question Ballard about using a psychic as his only source of locating trafficked children."

I wonder who these "witnesses" are.

Thanks,

-Smac

Once again, I don't make my comments very clear. I mean't that this is probably what Tim Ballard told the witnesses that have come out against him. He told the women these things to get them to be more compliant, by thinking it was sanctioned by President Ballard somehow. BTW, I failed to read through all that you posted about the report, my bad if that's why I'm not communicating well. But thanks for responding. :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting interview with Ryan, once a very good friend of Tim Ballard's. Also, I am dying for Thom Harrison to take some responsibility for the problems that Visions of Glory propagated. From deaths (Tylee, JJ, Tammy, Charles) and to Tim's alleged sexual abuse of several women to loss of money for those that put all their money into preparing for the end of times to just loss all around.  How do we decipher from truth and from someone's so called visions? Of course in the LDS church, it all started with a vision. And that leads people to believe they have visions themselves. Or maybe their NDE's make some in the church believe that they have an opening to the other side. What get's into people's minds???? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sxo4ogVRiI

 

Edited by Tacenda
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17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I am dying for Thom Harrison to take some responsibility for the problems that Visions of Glory propagated.

It would be great if he did, but I doubt that will happen until the next life. 

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On 5/14/2024 at 3:40 PM, Calm said:

It would be great if he did, but I doubt that will happen until the next life. 

What exactly would you like Thom Harrison to take responsibility or apologize for?

I haven't actually read Visions of Glory, but I've read about that it is dreams / visions he had of the last day. If he legitimately had these dreams (whether you think they are from God or not) and he published them, that is not wrong. If other people took his ideas and did bad things with them, can he control that? 

What responsibility do you want him to take?

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14 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

What exactly would you like Thom Harrison to take responsibility or apologize for?

I haven't actually read Visions of Glory, but I've read about that it is dreams / visions he had of the last day. If he legitimately had these dreams (whether you think they are from God or not) and he published them, that is not wrong. If other people took his ideas and did bad things with them, can he control that? 

What responsibility do you want him to take?

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/archive/publications/spencers-visions-of-glory#:~:text=Visions of Glory's portrayal of,contradict LDS scripture and prophets.

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry, I clicked on the link but still am not following your logic. The things that FAIR points out are wrong are pretty vague.

Assuming that Thom Harrison legitimately believes he had the visions in the book and that he felt prompted to publish them, then what SPECIFICALLY are you wanting him to take responsibility for and apologize for? What did HE do wrong? 

(note: we cannot assume that just because we send an opinion or idea into the public square that other people won't misuse it - I can't tell if this is the case with Thom Harrison or not; but since I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt) 

Edited by Anonymous Mormon
Typo
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24 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

Sorry, I clicked on the link but still am not following your logic. The things that FAIR points out are wrong are pretty vague.

Assuming that Thom Harrison legitimately believes he had the visions in the book and that he felt prompted to publish them, then what SPECIFICALLY are you wanting him to take responsibility for and apologize for? What did HE do wrong? 

(note: we cannot assume that just because send we an opinion or idea into the public square that other people won't misuse it - I can't tell if this is the case with Thom Harrison or not; but since I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt) 

From what I can find, Thom did actually apologize in a letter written (according to what I read but I have no idea if it's true) so that he wouldn't be excommunicated.  You can read the letter on ex-mormon reddit so I won't link to it (it was easy for me to find when I searched it so hopefully it will be the same for you), he says he regrets the book, it's not accurate, he believes his experiences were meant for him and are likely allegorical and symbolic, but that Pontius fleshed out the story and added stuff to make it flow better.  He also says there are doctrinally incorrect things in the book that were the result of misunderstandings between him and Pontius.

That letter was written back in 2014 so I have no idea if his feelings have changed, or even if he is still a member.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That letter was written back in 2014 so I have no idea if his feelings have changed, or even if he is still a member

If you read the letter, it comes across imo as the minimum he can retract in order to avoid excommunication. There was no offer to help those who allegedly misunderstood him get a better understanding. Instead it reads to me “poor me, not my problem”.

Given there was at least one conference he attended with Pontius iirc where these ideas were shared and not corrected iirc (someone taped it iirc, it has been eons since I looked into it), given there was no hint that Pontius got it wrong from him publicly before he got called out, iirc and given it has gone on for a decade since his letter with plenty still accepting it as TRUTH with no effort to correct beyond the letter, and given he is currently going to conferences and being treated there as a prophet, including handing out blessings (at least to those prominent in the movement like Tim Ballard) with no sign he is correcting any claims plus the rumors he’s just adding to the fire rather than suppressing them (such as telling Ballard he is going to be Pres of the US), I think his letter was him making sure he wasn’t excommunicated and nothing else and would not be the least surprised if the claim dumping it on a dead man and his poor widow was a lie (if the book was a ‘dramatization’ of reality, why wouldn’t he work beyond the minimum to ensure everyone understood it was embellishments instead of playing off the celebrity status he gets from that ‘misunderstanding’?)

His visions had some very explicit details that did not read at all like symbolic dreams. Pontius would have had to completely rewrite his comments to get it so wrong and that is not what the letter describes.  I read the book, it was very poorly written; I am flabbergasted that it is so popular for so many reasons.  One vision has him having an office in the temple right next to his good buddy Jesus, Harrison being top man in the 3 person group gathering the people of Zion from around the world (through the use of portals), outside of the authority of the President of the Church.  Harrison could have gone online with his version of his visions instead of allowing the Pontius’ version to stand in corrected.

BTW, The part of the story that was not visions, his description of the medical practices was closer to TV dramas rather than reality.  It is highly unlikely he actually went through the experience of his details are so off (for example, the medical staff dump him in his doctor’s office and leave him completely unattended right after he almost dies, such behavior would lead to a massive law suit) where he promptly has visions of his doctor committing adultery with a nurse like every medical soap in existence portrays, but with the addition of the furniture moaning about their sad lot of having to endure being in the pit of sin…it comes across as quite voyeuristic.  Again, we’d never heard of any correction outside the letter with no details on what Pontius got wrong. 

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Calm said:

If you read the letter, it comes across imo as the minimum he can retract in order to avoid excommunication. There was no offer to help those who allegedly misunderstood him get a better understanding. Instead it reads to me “poor me, not my problem”.

Given there was at least one conference he attended with Pontius iirc where these ideas were shared and not corrected iirc (someone taped it iirc, it has been eons since I looked into it), given there was no hint that Pontius got it wrong from him publicly before he got called out, iirc and given it has gone on for a decade since his letter with plenty still accepting it as TRUTH with no effort to correct beyond the letter, and given he is currently going to conferences and being treated there as a prophet, including handing out blessings (at least to those prominent in the movement like Tim Ballard) with no sign he is correcting any claims plus the rumors he’s just adding to the fire rather than suppressing them (such as telling Ballard he is going to be Pres of the US), I think his letter was him making sure he wasn’t excommunicated and nothing else and would not be the least surprised if the claim dumping it on a dead man and his poor widow was a lie (if the book was a ‘dramatization’ of reality, why wouldn’t he work beyond the minimum to ensure everyone understood it was embellishments instead of playing off the celebrity status he gets from that ‘misunderstanding’?)

His visions had some very explicit details that did not read at all like symbolic dreams. Pontius would have had to completely rewrite his comments to get it so wrong and that is not what the letter describes.  I read the book, it was very poorly written; I am flabbergasted that it is so popular for so many reasons.  One vision has him having an office in the temple right next to his good buddy Jesus, Harrison being top man in the 3 person group gathering the people of Zion from around the world (through the use of portals), outside of the authority of the President of the Church.  Harrison could have gone online with his version of his visions instead of allowing the Pontius’ version to stand in corrected.

BTW, The part of the story that was not visions, his description of the medical practices was closer to TV dramas rather than reality.  It is highly unlikely he actually went through the experience of his details are so off (for example, the medical staff dump him in his doctor’s office and leave him completely unattended right after he almost dies, such behavior would lead to a massive law suit) where he promptly has visions of his doctor committing adultery with a nurse like every medical soap in existence portrays, but with the addition of the furniture moaning about their sad lot of having to endure being in the pit of sin…it comes across as quite voyeuristic.  Again, we’d never heard of any correction outside the letter with no details on what Pontius got wrong. 

I agree with your assessment.  His actions since that letter would seem to imply that he's not actually sorry about anything and considers the book accurate.  Otherwise he wouldn't be promoting it or himself.  He'd be doing everything he could to bury it.

Is he still a member?

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