LifeSTAR, Bishops, Porn and Satan

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

The LDS addiction recovery program is adapted from the 12-step program developed by Alcoholics Anonymous. The Church uses it for all forms of addiction, not just for drug and alcohol addiction. The program is focused on accountability, forgiveness, and repentance. If there's any surrendering of one's agency to an outside power, it is a surrendering to God.

LDS Addiction Recocery Program

I don't know about LifeStar or their practices, but actual Church practices seem to draw upon the best practices in addiction recovery.

It is best practice because it is the only American practice that many will accept. Attempts to develop alternate models rarely work since we have said that 12 step is the solution.

I have serious doubts about the 12 step model. Emphasizing human helplessness and eroding our sense of self seems like a bastardization of Christianity to me. Also most people who escape addictions mature out of them on their own with age and experience.

The science on it is mixed at best. The success percentage from 12 step programs is low and when the program doesn’t work you are told you failed the program. The program cannot fail, it can only be failed. And when it doesn’t work you get to heap up some more shame at failing. Shame shared by most of the participants since it usually doesn’t work.

We need to find a better approach. This one isn’t doing much.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Never mind and carry on.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

My apologies if I violated board rules. Square brackets are commonly used when an author inserts their own words into a quoted piece. If using square brackets for their intended use is against the rules, I apologize.

Secondly, I am not preaching etiquette; I'm preaching rhetoric. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming your purpose here is to persuade and convince. I just thought it would be helpful to point out ways that your purpose could be advanced.

Any alteration is not allowed.

Quote

Altering members quotes on the board

 

[Stormin' Mormon]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Any alteration is not allowed.

 

My bad. I will delete my comments.

Sorry.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

My bad. I will delete my comments.

Sorry.

FWIW, it didn’t bother me. Additionally I struggle to go beyond barely civil with that particular poster (and that’s entirely on me - I could chose to just ignore or not respond at all). 
 

I do find the argument that religious people somehow have a superior ability to grasp absolute morality particularly problematic. The idea that cross referencing scripture and prophets somehow makes one’s foundation better is question begging. It assumes that we can agree and know what scripture is. It assumes that those writing scripture had some special access to God that we lack. It assumes that scripture speaks with a unified view of morality. It implicitly assumes that other sects scriptures aren’t scriptures (like say the foundational myths recorded by the ancient Egyptians). 
 

While all moral frameworks have to pull themselves up by their boot straps, ceding moral authority to a book that condones chattel slavery and genocide seems less likely to get one closer to moral good. 

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

According to the Book of Mormon, you are wrong… It’s become clear to me that the reason why discussion boards, like this one, are filled with so much erroneous, unedifying content is because the participants would rather gab on endlessly about their own personal ideas and speculations rather than properly inform themselves by earnestly studying the scriptures before making comments. Here is what the iron rod of the word of God has to say in response to your idea that the devil isn’t necessarily involved in some forms of evil…

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with A PERFECT KNOWLEDGE IT IS OF THE DEVIL; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. (Moroni 7)

 

In Catholicism, we say “the world, the flesh, and the devil” are responsible for evil. I don’t dig the idea that the devil is some all powerful force responsible for evil. He’s an angel, but he’s not omnipotent. He’s not omnipresent. He’s not whispering barely resistible stuff into the ears of everyone. There are lots of reasons why evil abounds without the devil’s involvement. 
 

The opposite of the devil is not God. That would be ridiculous. The opposite of the devil is Michael the archangel. 

[MustardSeed]

For the record and since I have first hand anecdotal experience as a therapist to many LDS men who get “sent” to me from a bishop or a wife after the exposure of porn use- 

I personally don’t talk much about porn or addiction.  In my practice we identify that porn serves as a numbing agent for pain and we spend our time identifying and processing those pains. 
 

PS as a therapist I never discuss Satan.  If a client blames Satan I redirect.  I don’t deny the existence of Satan or his influence but we don’t play victim in my office. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

42 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

For the record and since I have first hand anecdotal experience as a therapist to many LDS men who get “sent” to me from a bishop or a wife after the exposure of porn use- 

I personally don’t talk much about porn or addiction.  In my practice we identify that porn serves as a numbing agent for pain and we spend our time identifying and processing those pains. 
 

PS as a therapist I never discuss Satan.  If a client blames Satan I redirect.  I don’t deny the existence of Satan or his influence but we don’t play victim in my office. 

Jodi (evil) Hildebrandt could have taken some lessons from you. My daughter-in-law is nearly finished with her schooling in becoming a counselor. And this Jodi sicko gives people in this field a bad name. I hope it doesn't turn many away from seeking help and getting counseling if they really could use it.

I watched a podcast of one of Jodi's former clients, and he actually compares her to Ted Bundy, I guess the ability to be so cruel to people and not feel any guilt and mess their lives up for good. She broke up marriages with her sick manipulations etc. And she tried to make the victim feel responsible and ashamed.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[Sara H]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

In Catholicism, we say “the world, the flesh, and the devil” are responsible for evil. I don’t dig the idea that the devil is some all powerful force responsible for evil. He’s an angel, but he’s not omnipotent. He’s not omnipresent. He’s not whispering barely resistible stuff into the ears of everyone. There are lots of reasons why evil abounds without the devil’s involvement. 
 

The opposite of the devil is not God. That would be ridiculous. The opposite of the devil is Michael the archangel. 

In my experience, the majority of members of the LDS have been instructed that there are two opposing teams competing for control of the playing field during our mortal experience, and that we are the chess pieces that are being moved around. Both God's team, which is led by Jesus and his angels, and Satan's team, which consists of many angels, are competing against one another. Each and every choice that an individual takes is either guided by one of the coaches on the squad or by an angel. For instance, a guy is being affected by team Jesus if he chooses not to look at a lady who is only partially clothed on the cover of a sports illustrated magazine while he is in the aisle of a drug store, but he is being influenced by team Satan if he does look at the woman who is only partially clothed on the cover of the magazine. Some LDS adolescents have shared with me that they have the impression that angels from both the earthly and heavenly realms are continuously surrounding them and following them around everywhere they go, roaring in their ears and trying to persuade them to perform specific behaviors. Because we believe that we are being tested in this life and that the results are either a pass or a fail with no grades in between, I think this belief is shared by the majority of LDS people. 

[Sara H]

18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sin IS addiction; addiction is sin.

You are completely incorrect in this assessment no matter how many times you insist on making it. Substance abuse is not a sin! For instance, a non-LDS person who has never been instructed that drinking alcohol is a sin is not guilty of committing a sin even if they are addicted to the substance. In my perspective, it is ludicrous to suggest that they are committing a sin by doing that.My inquiry to you is this: do you believe that all alcoholism constitutes a sin? Is it a sin to be addicted to nicotine in any amount even for a nonLDS?

Have you ever taken the time to read what the Bible has to say regarding gluttony? Is sinfulness synonymous with an addiction to food? Many people are addicted to the release of dopamine that occurs when they overeat, which leads to them eating more than they need to. Is Satan responsible for enticing them to overeat so that they might get a rush from the dopamine? 

 

[Sara H]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Satan IS a "brain condition"

We are not instructed to believe that Satan is a "brain condition. We are instructed that Satan and his angels are presently residing among us, and that their primary objective is to convince us to forsake the gospel. I would say that the majority of members of the LDS believe that Satan and his angels are among us, trying to whisper in our ears. That we feel our spiritual brothers and sisters are all about us speaking in our ears every day all day long, that is not a brain disorder as you say it is, if we believe that they are all around us. You can't have it both ways.

[Meadowchik]

16 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Forgive me, but where on earth are you trying to go with this? Comparing “porn”, to something as harmless as golf, lifting weights, etc., is just (again forgive me) SILLY! 

Not silly at all. Any excess that interferes with functioning in life or with healthy relationships can be bad for people and families. 

Of course golf can be damaging to a marriage. Do you think it is good for a spouse to neglect their family every weekend, and to abuse the budget by overspending?

Long-term, such behaviour can result in neglected children/spouse and loss of financial security. 

Compare that to someone who uses porn legally and for a few minutes several times a week within the family budget. And without neglecting family.

The former example is obviously harmful and the latter might not be harmful at all and even if it is, by order of magnitudes much less harmful.

[Sara H]

16 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Forgive me, but where on earth are you trying to go with this? Comparing “porn”, to something as harmless as golf, lifting weights, etc., is just (again forgive me) SILLY! 

If a person has never been taught that watching porn is a sin, are they sinning while watching porn?

 

[Sara H]

11 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Again, why are you fighting so much and possibly (spiritually) dying on this very odd hill. A hill littered with the many souls of those who did not heed the words of the Lord, and the countless sermons on this very topic, in countless General Conference sermons. I do not wish to be rude, but “methinks thou protests too much”. 

To reiterate, not everybody on earth acknowledges that our doctrine and practices are the word of God. I would say that almost all LDS boys and girls have been taught that viewing porn is a sin, but there are billions of young people in the world who have never been taught that viewing porn is a sin. If a young LDS boy or girl views pornographic material, there is a very significant probability that they will experience a strong sense of remorse and the desire to repent. On the other hand, there are a lot of young people who aren't LDS who watch porn on a regular basis and they don't feel the least bit guilty about it. My question to you is this: If someone has never been taught that viewing pornographic material is a sin, can they still be considered a sinner for engaging in such behavior?

[Meadowchik]

14 minutes ago, Sara H said:

You are completely incorrect in this assessment no matter how many times you insist on making it. Substance abuse is not a sin! For instance, a non-LDS person who has never been instructed that drinking alcohol is a sin is not guilty of committing a sin even if they are addicted to the substance. In my perspective, it is ludicrous to suggest that they are committing a sin by doing that.My inquiry to you is this: do you believe that all alcoholism constitutes a sin? Is it a sin to be addicted to nicotine in any amount even for a nonLDS?

Have you ever taken the time to read what the Bible has to say regarding gluttony? Is sinfulness synonymous with an addiction to food? Many people are addicted to the release of dopamine that occurs when they overeat, which leads to them eating more than they need to. Is Satan responsible for enticing them to overeat so that they might get a rush from the dopamine? 

 

I think you've made some excellent points which are important and also despite what one repeat commenter said, relevant to living a joyful life. 

I agree that it is harmful to use Satan as an explanation for what motivates unhealthy behaviours. Furthermore using Satan as an explanation can create a cycle of worsening unhealthy behaviours:

A person does something that isn't good for them. They've been told that doing so means they've fallen into temptation of Satan. They feel shame and focus their energy in not doing that thing. But because they're focused on a negative and not on actually meeting their own needs better (whatever goodness is missing in their life that motivates the unhealthy behaviour) they increase the chances of repeating the unhealthy behaviour. They feel more shame, the negative thoughts about themself increase and they focus more on not doing the thing, continuing to take attention away from good they could be doing instead, they increase the likelihood of relapse...

On the other hand, the cycle changes if the superstition/taboo around the unhealthy behaviour is removed and a view of moderation is adopted. "Ah I see, it looks like this behaviour is interfering with the good in my life, I will adjust," and then possibly "I am having trouble moderating my behaviour, why? Why am I drawn to consume porn/smoke/drink/exercise/diet/criticise/yell/scroll the internet excessively?"

I think that the moderation mindset is much kinder and much more based in reality. We can be more effective if we are basing our decisions on what is real and we are more impactful when we're kind, including being kind to ourselves.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Sara H said:

In my experience, the majority of members of the LDS have been instructed that there are two opposing teams competing for control of the playing field during our mortal experience, and that we are the chess pieces that are being moved around. Both God's team, which is led by Jesus and his angels, and Satan's team, which consists of many angels, are competing against one another. Each and every choice that an individual takes is either guided by one of the coaches on the squad or by an angel. For instance, a guy is being affected by team Jesus if he chooses not to look at a lady who is only partially clothed on the cover of a sports illustrated magazine while he is in the aisle of a drug store, but he is being influenced by team Satan if he does look at the woman who is only partially clothed on the cover of the magazine. Some LDS adolescents have shared with me that they have the impression that angels from both the earthly and heavenly realms are continuously surrounding them and following them around everywhere they go, roaring in their ears and trying to persuade them to perform specific behaviors. Because we believe that we are being tested in this life and that the results are either a pass or a fail with no grades in between, I think this belief is shared by the majority of LDS people. 

The problem with a chess metaphor is that the players of chess will happily sacrifice pieces to their opponent in order to win the game.

Sports Illustrated Swimsuit magazines are still a thing?

Warning: Following video shows Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue covers so don’t look at it or Satan’s knight will fork God’s king and his rook. Hope you aren’t friends with that rook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8QNDRbjong

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by The Nehor

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with a chess metaphor is that the players of chess will happily sacrifice pieces to their opponent in order to win the game.

I was actually going to protest on Sara’s use of the metaphor on this ground and on the grounds I didn’t remember God playing chess or any game being used in church, but apparently I haven’t paid close enough attention.  Elder Rasband doesn’t talk about the other player, but if one thinks back to Job, it is easy to imagine it is Satan.  I wonder though if Elder Rasband took his metaphor to that length.

Quote

Our lives are like a chessboard, and the Lord moves us from one place to another—if we are responsive to spiritual promptings. Looking back, we can see His hand in our lives…

Through the experience of my own life’s journey, I know that the Lord will move us on that seeming chessboard to do His work. What may appear to be a random chance is, in fact, overseen by a loving Father in Heaven, who can number the hairs of every head. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without our Father’s notice. The Lord is in the small details of our lives, and those incidents and opportunities are to prepare us to lift our families and others as we build the kingdom of God on earth. Remember, as the Lord said to Abraham, “I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/by-divine-design?lang=eng#p11

My husband just reminded me of Elder Eyring (he believes) saying unlike Spock’s 3D chess, God plays with an infinite chessboard, but he doesn’t remember ever hearing God had an opponent in his game or that it was Satan (another option would be ourselves).  Still it is a reasonable expansion of the metaphor, so I do not doubt that even if Satan has never been included by leaders in the metaphor, some members interpret it that way.

This is closest imo:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2008/09/poster-its-your-move?lang=eng

I take it back, this is closest, but it may be an editor’s decision as it is just a picture of chess while there is no mention of it in an article about Satan’s tactics.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2017/digital/april/4-of-satans-best-strategies-and-how-to-resist-them?lang=eng

And there are unfortunately members who take the analogy of a battle between God and Satan to an extreme and use “warrior up” and all that. I just have a hard time as seeing Satan as an opponent and not someone who is tolerated by God for a good purpose eventually.

I still greatly dislike it because it is not an accurate portrayal of our relationship with God, we are not pawns to him or even just Kings and Queens to protect or sacrifice as needed.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Calm

[webbles]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with a chess metaphor is that the players of chess will happily sacrifice pieces to their opponent in order to win the game.

Sports Illustrated Swimsuit magazines are still a thing?

Warning: Following video shows Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue covers so don’t look at it or Satan’s knight will fork God’s king and his rook. Hope you aren’t friends with that rook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8QNDRbjong

 

SI Swimsuit is not only still a thing but there is going to be an event at BYU with SI Swimsuit models as part of the Big 12 Homecoming.

https://big12sports.com/news/2023/9/8/football-big-12-conference-announces-2023-big-12-homecoming-activations-performers-and-notable-speakers.aspx

Quote

For each Big 12 Homecoming, Big 12 has partnered with the iconic Sports Illustrated Swimsuit to bring students the Be You Women’s Empowerment series, presented by Maybelline. The series will include panel discussions focused on mental health awareness and will be hosted by notable women leaders from each host institution market and SI Swimsuit models.

The panel for BYU details are (https://big12sports.com/news/2023/9/6/conference-be-you-womens-empowerment-series.aspx) :

Quote

Be You Women’s Empowerment Series: BYU
Thursday, October 19, 10:00 a.m. – 2:00 p.m. | Marriott Center

• Participating SI Swim Models
• Liz Darger: Senior Associate Athletic Director/Senior Woman Administrator, BYU Athletics
• Whitney Johnson Catt: Associate Athletic Director for Student-Athlete Development, Diversity and Inclusion, BYU Athletics
• Diljeet Taylor: Head Coach, BYU Cross Country & Associate Head Track Coach
• Camille Johnson: General President, Relief Society of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, webbles said:

going to be an event at BYU with SI Swimsuit models as part of the Big 12 Homecoming.

This is the first year it’s Big 12, correct?

What have past homecomings been like?

[webbles]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is the first year it’s Big 12, correct?

What have past homecomings been like?

It sounds like this is a new thing for Big 12.  They'll be doing homecoming events at certain schools each year.  This year, they are doing it with the 4 new schools (BYU, Houston, Cincinati, and UCF) and will rotate to the other schools over the next few years.

[Calm]

Quote

a beauty bar, giveaways, meet & greets with Sports Illustrated Swimsuit models and the chance to get a professional headshot taken

The guys might be disappointed if only women are admitted to these events.

[The Nehor]

Quote

The series will include panel discussions focused on mental health awareness and will be hosted by notable women leaders from each host institution market and SI Swimsuit models.

Why is everything always so stupid?

[Calm]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Why is everything always so stupid?

I don’t understand the connection to football at all.  I get the Big 12 is more than football, but still. 

[Sara H]

23 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think you've made some excellent points which are important and also despite what one repeat commenter said, relevant to living a joyful life. 

I agree that it is harmful to use Satan as an explanation for what motivates unhealthy behaviours. Furthermore using Satan as an explanation can create a cycle of worsening unhealthy behaviours:

A person does something that isn't good for them. They've been told that doing so means they've fallen into temptation of Satan. They feel shame and focus their energy in not doing that thing. But because they're focused on a negative and not on actually meeting their own needs better (whatever goodness is missing in their life that motivates the unhealthy behaviour) they increase the chances of repeating the unhealthy behaviour. They feel more shame, the negative thoughts about themself increase and they focus more on not doing the thing, continuing to take attention away from good they could be doing instead, they increase the likelihood of relapse...

On the other hand, the cycle changes if the superstition/taboo around the unhealthy behaviour is removed and a view of moderation is adopted. "Ah I see, it looks like this behaviour is interfering with the good in my life, I will adjust," and then possibly "I am having trouble moderating my behaviour, why? Why am I drawn to consume porn/smoke/drink/exercise/diet/criticise/yell/scroll the internet excessively?"

I think that the moderation mindset is much kinder and much more based in reality. We can be more effective if we are basing our decisions on what is real and we are more impactful when we're kind, including being kind to ourselves.

I concur. What I have never truly understood, even when I was entirely dedicated to following the brethren without question, is why we give Satan so much power through our perception of how our gospel is supposed to be lived. The more I learn about Satan's power and read what our leaders have written about it, the more I am beginning to get the impression that Satan's power and authority are truly a priesthood calling that he has taken on at the request of heavenly father. This feeling grows stronger the more I study and read what our leaders have written about it. It is remarkable how much mental space we LDS people give him to occupy in our thoughts. 

Not hormones or the normal maturation of a young man's sexuality are to blame in our church if a young man engages in sexually inappropriate behavior, like as looking at the cover of a nudist magazine, for example. In our church, if a young woman curses, we think that Satan enticed her to curse, and the only possible explanation for her cursing is that she gave in to Satan's seduction and cursed as a result. But the way that we have put up the dichotomy "it's either Satan or Jesus" as a way of coping with the challenges that we face in our day-to-day lives collapses when we merely take into consideration someone who struggles with autism and anger issues. If you have ever spent any amount of time in the company of an autistic person who curses and becomes angry as a result of frustration while attempting to articulate their views, you would quickly come to the realization that the dichotomy of Satan vs Jesus is flawed. Unless one is willing to declare that a person with autism is being influenced by Satan more than a person who does not have autism, this explanation does not make sense. 

It is possible to create irreparable damage to one's mind by allowing no gray area for simply being human in the context of the Satan vs Jesus binary. When I've talked to a lot of LDS youth, I've found that a lot of them have no idea how to get out of their own heads long enough to be able to take a break from trying to determine whether Satan is the predominant God that is influencing their acts on that particular day. It causes an arduous conflict in one's head that never seems to finish because one can't manage to drive Satan out of one's mind. 

 

 

 

 

[Sara H]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with a chess metaphor is that the players of chess will happily sacrifice pieces to their opponent in order to win the game.

And?