Lesson 19 - Defending Religious Freedom

[marineland]

I'm into lesson 19 of the manual (Religion 275).  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/12557_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Page 89 - Remind students that before we came to earth, we participated in the Council in
Heaven.

“The central issue in that premortal council was: Shall the children of God have
untrammeled agency to choose the course they should follow, whether good or
evil, or shall they be coerced and forced to be obedient?

“The scriptures make clear that there was a great war in heaven, a struggle over the 
principle of freedom, the right of choice” (Teachings: Ezra Taft Benson, 61).

Was this the only war in heaven or were there smaller wars over issues discussed
at other councils in heaven?

Page 90 - Remind students that for centuries after Lehi arrived in the promised land, the
Nephites were ruled by kings.

Explain to students that the system of judges was appropriate and necessary to
preserve freedom in Nephite society.

From what I see in Mosiah 29, Mosiah is the last king before he decides to appoint
judges to rule over them (verse 11). They would also have a dual rule - to judge
them according to the law (verse 41)

How does a good judge preserve freedom better than or equal to a good king?

Would the United States have more or less freedom if the judges on the Supreme Court
ruled over the people instead of elected Government officials?

[ksfisher]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:29 PM, marineland said:

How does a good judge preserve freedom better than or equal to a good king?

There were mechanisms in Nephite law in place to remove judges who abused their position.  With a king, whose power was near absolute, this would not be possible.

On 8/14/2023 at 1:29 PM, marineland said:

Would the United States have more or less freedom if the judges on the Supreme Court
ruled over the people instead of elected Government officials?

I don't think it's helpful to equate or compare modern judges with Nephite judges.  The same English word is used to describe both, but they were operating under a different cultural and legal system. 

Edited August 16 by ksfisher

[Pyreaux]

37 minutes ago, marineland said:

Was this the only war in heaven or were there smaller wars over issues discussed
at other councils in heaven?

There were apparently other wars in heaven, poetically described as repeating itself. Job was a heavenly dispute with the Sons of God. Daniel's vision of the Prince of Persia was a heavenly rebellion.

Quote

How does a good judge preserve freedom better than or equal to a good king?

When they become ruled by the next wicked king.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Would the United States have more or less freedom if the judges on the Supreme Court
ruled over the people instead of elected Government officials?

In the United States, our elected government officials do not rule over the people.  We have a constitutional representative republic.  We don't elect rulers.  For the most part, we elect representatives for a specified period of time to do specific jobs like legislate, govern, or act as judge.  

You can make arguments to the contrary, but with human nature being to not give up gained power, separation of powers and enumerated and changeable term limits make it pretty hard to have a conclusively winning argument.  

 

That said, to answer your question: If we combined executive and judicial power, we'd have less freedom.  Separation of powers isn't perfect, but it's better than less separation of powers as long as humans have human nature. 

Edited August 14 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

Most likely these judges were more like the Old Testament judges. While they did sit in judgment of legal disputes the chief judge was also the head of government or what we would call the executive. As chief judge Alma led the army.

This was basically King Mosiah doing a reverse of what happened with Samuel when he was pressured to give Israel a king.

The judges were elected. Kings are not. While it appears it was a lifelong appointment there were checks on power. They worked. At least for a while.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 19 of the manual (Religion 275).  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/12557_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Page 89 - Remind students that before we came to earth, we participated in the Council in
Heaven.

“The central issue in that premortal council was: Shall the children of God have
untrammeled agency to choose the course they should follow, whether good or
evil, or shall they be coerced and forced to be obedient?

“The scriptures make clear that there was a great war in heaven, a struggle over the 
principle of freedom, the right of choice” (Teachings: Ezra Taft Benson, 61).

Was this the only war in heaven or were there smaller wars over issues discussed
at other councils in heaven?

Page 90 - Remind students that for centuries after Lehi arrived in the promised land, the
Nephites were ruled by kings.

Explain to students that the system of judges was appropriate and necessary to
preserve freedom in Nephite society.

From what I see in Mosiah 29, Mosiah is the last king before he decides to appoint
judges to rule over them (verse 11). They would also have a dual rule - to judge
them according to the law (verse 41)

How does a good judge preserve freedom better than or equal to a good king?

Would the United States have more or less freedom if the judges on the Supreme Court
ruled over the people instead of elected Government officials?

We don’t know about pre-mortal minor skirmishes along the way (though it is reasonable to suggest that there were), but our combined mutual experience culminated in the war on the most important point of all, as described.

There are good and bad judges, good and bad kings. The genius in the system of judges is in the dispersion of power between many judges, and between the judges and the majority voice of the people appointing them, which better preserves freedom. Mosiah Chapter 29 explains this with a good deal of detail and real-life examples. Mosiah 29 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

Interestingly, in the war in heaven, Satan wanted to be king (as his followers) while the rest of us participated in a council where Christ shares His power and united us (we are joint heirs). Of course, His Father is the Most High King, and Jesus is now King, delegating the keys of power so we can govern ourselves as one with Him (John 17) under His all-powerful advocacy and protection.

How do the judges (rulers) in Mosiah 29 relate to SCOTUS judges -- they are two different types of judges. SCOTUS is a final arbiter of law, but in balance with two other types of judgement (enforcement, enactment). I imagine Mosiah's form of government also had the judges perform different roles under the title of "judge."

[CV75]

Now here's a guy. Judge Dredd, who performed multiple government functions under the same title. Very efficient! Plus, a nod to Captain Moroni's military uniform.

Alma was Chief Judge and High Priest of the Church for a while. 

[marineland]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:30 PM, CV75 said:

Interestingly, in the war in heaven, Satan wanted to be king (as his followers) while the rest of us participated in a council where Christ shares His power and united us (we are joint heirs).

I thought the war in heaven was because Heavenly Father rejected Satan's plan to save mankind.  I didn't
see anything about him wanting to be a king over its inhabitants.

[marineland]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:08 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

In the United States, our elected government officials do not rule over the people.  We have a constitutional representative republic.  We don't elect rulers.  For the most part, we elect representatives for a specified period of time to do specific jobs like legislate, govern, or act as judge.  

Governing over the population seems analogous to ruling over the population, no?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I thought the war in heaven was because Heavenly Father rejected Satan's plan to save mankind.  I didn't
see anything about him wanting to be a king over its inhabitants.

I was speaking metaphorically to illustrate the principles. Your summary is close enough, and to me means the same thing.

Edited August 16 by CV75

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

Governing over the population seems analogous to ruling over the population, no?

Maybe to folks who haven't spent much time looking into historical examples that illustrate how the two words are traditionally used.  But the more you look, the more obvious the answer to your question.

 

[Dario_M]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:29 PM, marineland said:

 

 

How does a good judge preserve freedom better than or equal to a good king?

Would the United States have more or less freedom if the judges on the Supreme Court
ruled over the people instead of elected Government officials?

God is our official final judge. I believe that we only need to worrie about his judgement at the end.