Lesson 17 - The Power of the Word - is the past still relevant for us today?

[Pyreaux]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:44 AM, marineland said:

According to JSH 1:5, the 3 main groups in Joseph's time where Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist.

Verse 19 says "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage
who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were
all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for
doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof".

Forum user InCognitus provided a quote from Joseph Smith:

According to Joseph Smith, the bad part about the creeds was that they were restrictive and drew lines
that prevented a person from moving on to further truth.  On October 15, 1843 he said: “I cannot believe
in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot
subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn
all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’; which
I cannot subscribe to.”  (History, 1838–1856, volume E-1 [1 July 1843–30 April 1844])

The person who appeared to Joseph Smith in the first vision did not qualify the creeds as some parts
are good while other parts are bad.

As Joseph Smith was commanded not to join any of them, would this 'Jesus' also advise everyone else
not to join these 3 churches and their sub-groups?

Kind of believe it.  But I don't view the tares as members in the body of Christ.

I'm of the "Steppingstone" theory. We are often baited by those (usually disingenuous) claiming they had the Spirit tell them a different church was true (the reason the claim is usually disingenuous is because their aim is often clearly to discount the validity of spiritual witnesses all together), as if we are in any position to tell another people what exactly the Spirit may or may not have personally said to them. I've never seen any LDS fall for it, you can't disprove another's subjective experience, we can't deny our own experience, so we are at an impasse. These people think it should be a great paradox for a person outside the faith to be led by the Spirit to join another church. It is quite easy to think God would lead an Atheist to any given church, an inactive back to their original church or another, etc. As a steppingstone of truth. It's just not a place for a future Prophet destined to start a new church in the next few years, but it might be just fine for a fledgling in faith, despite a church's flaws in understanding or being void of power.

Indeed the Tares are not members of the body of Christ, they are the Church of the devil, yet can be a member of the Apostolic Church. Sharing the same space and looking identical to the Wheat. Was Judas Iscariot not a member of Christ's Church? Not a member of the Quorum of Twelve? Are not those groups sometimes thought to be the same thing as the body of Christ? Apparently, those are actually different groups or churches. There are those that were official members of the true church that Christ personally established, and yet are also in the group of Tares, members of the Church of the devil, not the Church of the Lamb. Is it difficult to understand?

Edited June 9 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

On 6/7/2023 at 8:44 AM, marineland said:

But I don't view the tares as members in the body of Christ.

With this view, unfortunately for you, you're not the judge of who is in and who is out.

What if you are an earnest, seeking "tare" doing your best to get it right?

Where should you end up?

[manol]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

... you're not the judge of who is in and who is out.

Agreed.  That is NOT our role. 

In the parable, it is THE ANGELS who differentiate the wheat from the tares.   It is clearly NOT the role of those who consider themselves "wheat" to judge others to be "tares".   None of us have a perspective and understanding remotely approaching that which the angels have. 

Edited June 9 by manol

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, manol said:

Agreed.  That is NOT our role. 

In the parable, it is THE ANGELS who differentiate the wheat from the tares.   It is clearly NOT the role of those who consider themselves "wheat" to judge others to be "tares".   None of us have a perspective and understanding remotely approaching that which the angels have. 

Well yes, God can delegate his tasks as he wants, but I see no reason why, with his infinite intelligence he cannot be handling the infinite number of judgements, prayers, questions and concerns that make up the "God business".    Not to mention checking out the plans for the new galaxy in the Whatsis Belt.

On the other hand perhaps he asks the post graduate students in his "Exaltation Leadership - Judgment 907" class to get more practice by filling in for him as well.  That seems most efficient to me   Then in the Second Period those students in the Judgement class can join him for the "Galaxy Design 405" class.

Except on Sunday of course.  Most of the place shuts down on Sundays exept the "Urgent Prayers Department"   😇

 

Edited June 9 by mfbukowski

[marineland]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What if you are an earnest, seeking "tare" doing your best to get it right?

I don't see any tare being spared from that parable.

[marineland]

23 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Indeed the Tares are not members of the body of Christ, they are the Church of the devil, yet can be a member of the Apostolic Church. Sharing the same space and looking identical to the Wheat. Was Judas Iscariot not a member of Christ's Church? Not a member of the Quorum of Twelve? Are not those groups sometimes thought to be the same thing as the body of Christ? Apparently, those are actually different groups or churches. There are those that were official members of the true church that Christ personally established, and yet are also in the group of Tares, members of the Church of the devil, not the Church of the Lamb. Is it difficult to understand?

The tares may appear to be members of the church to humans, but God knows they are not really
members of His church.  Judas was initially a member of the twelve, but he changed and lost his
position.  The parable of the wheat and the tares is about people in their state at the judgment. 
That's how I see it.

Edited June 9 by marineland

[marineland]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:28 PM, InCognitus said:

Where in the parable of the sheep and the goats did Jesus ask if either the sheep or the goats believed in correct doctrine?  And what was it that was different for the sheep who received eternal life compared to the goats that were damned?

It doesn't explicitly say that.  But in LDS theology, eternal life is living life as God and his wife lives - eternal increase. This is
only possible in believing and acting on correct doctrine.  Those in the telestial kingdom, that do not repent, are the goats.
 

On 6/7/2023 at 10:28 PM, InCognitus said:

"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" (History, 1838–1856, volume E-1 [1 July 1843–30 April 1844])

So while 'Jesus' told Joseph Smith not to join any of these groups back then, would he approve of people joining those
groups in our day?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I don't see any tare being spared from that parable.

I am sorry you take it so literally, I also disagree apparently with your definition of "tare", and see God as merciful 

Edited June 9 by mfbukowski
corrected word- deleted "not". GOD IS MERCIFUL

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, marineland said:

Those in the telestial kingdom, that do not repent, are the goats.

"WHO DO NOT REPENT" is the issue, and they have a long long time on the other side to find the light.  There maybe just a few after that amount of time, watching their friends moving from prison to the light.

" There goes another buddy! Maybe I should check it out better!"

[Okrahomer]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I am sorry you take it so literally, I also disagree apparently with your definition of "tare", and do not see God as merciful 

Just clarifying:  you DO see God as merciful, right?  It seems Marineland does not.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

It doesn't explicitly say that. 

So based on that parable, it doesn't matter if we are "Mormons" or not, we just need to feed the hungry and help and clothe the homeless and provide care and service to the destitute, right?

2 hours ago, marineland said:

So while 'Jesus' told Joseph Smith not to join any of these groups back then, would he approve of people joining those
groups in our day?

You're asking the same question over again.  I answered this above (here) when I said "It depends on who is asking and at what period of time.  The Lord uses people where they can do the most good for his purposes.  For Joseph Smith it was that he was called to restore the church of Jesus Christ in the latter days."   The same thing applies to our day.

And Pyreaux answered this adequately and I concur 100% with what he said in this post here.   

Sometimes we need to take little steps to learn what we need to learn, little by little, the milk before the meat.  And some people aren't ready for all that God has to offer them (their traditions or prejudices get in the way of them seeing things clearly).  So the Spirit might indeed lead someone to join a non-LDS church in our day because that at least gets them in the right direction and may be better than having no belief in God whatsoever, and much good can be done through these churches (like what was important in the parable of the sheep and the goats).  

Edited June 9 by InCognitus

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Just clarifying:  you DO see God as merciful, right?  It seems Marineland does not.

WOW thanks for catching that one! YES YES YES I see God as INCREDIBLY merciful and am NEARLY a universalist

[Okrahomer]

58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I see God as INCREDIBLY merciful and am NEARLY a universalist

I am 100% with you.

[manol]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

YES YES YES I see God as INCREDIBLY merciful and am NEARLY a universalist

 

22 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

I am 100% with you.

I was suspicious of both of you.  And yes you can play the "well, it takes one to know one" card on me. 

That being said...

Since mfbukowski specified "NEARLY" and Okrahomer apparently is "100%" in agreement, maybe the answer should be obvious but I still have to ask -

What's holding ya'll back??

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

I was suspicious of both of you.  And yes you can play the "well, it takes one to know one" card on me. 

That being said...

Since mfbukowski specified "NEARLY" and Okrahomer apparently is "100%" in agreement, maybe the answer should be obvious but I still have to ask -

What's holding ya'll back??

Well, think it thru

We know there is at least 1 soul in Outer Darkness.  How many more?

VERY few.  5? 10?

But that makes it < 100%.

But can you be 100% AGREEING with Universalism, and admit that Universalism ain't perfectly UNIVERSAL?

Can't help it dude!

I'm Mr. Linguistic Flaw finder.  My genes just won't let me say 100.000000000 % on anything!

 

[manol]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well, think it thru

We know there is at least 1 soul in Outer Darkness.

Do we REALLY KNOW that?  I mean, for millenia we "knew" what "endless punishment" and "eternal punishment" are, but we were (understandably!) mistaken.  D&C 19:6-12.

Suppose there were people who did not have access to D&C 19:6-12 who came to essentially the same conclusion that passage teaches.  Would they have been wrong?  Of course not!   Likewise there may be other conclusions in the same direction, not yet fully supported by scripture, which are not wrong. 

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But can you be 100% AGREEING with Universalism, and admit that Universalism ain't perfectly UNIVERSAL?

Can't help it dude!

I'm Mr. Linguistic Flaw finder.  My genes just won't let me say 100.000000000 % on anything!

Imo there are grounds for uncertainty both ways.  I am not certain that everyone WILL choose reunion with God; my belief is that everyone CAN, despite damnation-intensive scriptures to the contrary.  

What are the limitations on an "infinite and eternal atonement"?  Is a bad choice in a person's past more powerful than the "infinite and eternal atonement" can be in their present?  If so, then past sins are more powerful than God and Christ and repentance and all of Heaven combined. 

What if those "son of perdition/outer darkness" scriptures were the BEST their writers could do given the paradigms and/or emotions they had at the time?  Alternatively, what if the scary language was chosen for effect?  (D&C 19:6-12 again)

What if the gift Judas offers us is the chance to develop our forgiveness muscles to the point where we forgive someone who has done something we have been told is "unforgivable"?  What if that going-outside-the-box character development challenge is a deliberate part of the lesson plan for our progression? 

What if Joseph Smith's teaching that in order to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost a person "has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it" [emphasis mine] is the most accurate description we have, in that it identifies the "sin against the Holy Ghost" as being the intentional choosing of darkness over light in the present tense?  I submit that while we are knowingly and deliberately choosing darkness over light, and for as long as we continue to do so, we are indeed damned (dammed).  But once we stop doing so, I do not believe God then holds our past error against us for all of eternity.  It would arguably be hypocritical for God to command us to "forgive all men" when he holds grudges for eternity.

That being said, I suppose that theoretically, IF a person chooses darkness over light at every turn forever, then they would remain in "outer darkness" forever.  But the Parable of the Good Shepherd tells me that Christ (and his followers) would never quit trying to bring each one home; the parable of the Prodigal Son tells me that God would welcome any such person with open arms; and the teaching that "we without them cannot be made perfect" tells me that we really are all in this together.  

"The worth of souls is great in the sight of God." D&C 18:10, and I take that to mean "the worth of each soul is great in the sight of God."  I have a hard time imagining God and Mom and all the good kids partying in complete peace and happiness in the Celestial Kingdom while even one of our brothers or sisters is eternally consigned to outer darkness. 

Of course I could be wrong. 

 

Edited June 10 by manol

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, manol said:

Of course I could be wrong.

If you say so. 😁

Edited June 10 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, manol said:

Do we REALLY KNOW that?  I mean, for millenia we "knew" what "endless punishment" and "eternal punishment" are, but we were (understandably!) mistaken.  D&C 19:6-12.

Suppose there were people who did not have access to D&C 19:6-12 who came to essentially the same conclusion that passage teaches.  Would they have been wrong?  Of course not!   Likewise there may be other conclusions in the same direction, not yet fully supported by scripture, which are not wrong. 

Imo there are grounds for uncertainty both ways.  I am not certain that everyone WILL choose reunion with God; my belief is that everyone CAN, despite damnation-intensive scriptures to the contrary.  

What are the limitations on an "infinite and eternal atonement"?  Is a bad choice in a person's past more powerful than the "infinite and eternal atonement" can be in their present?  If so, then past sins are more powerful than God and Christ and repentance and all of Heaven combined. 

What if those "son of perdition/outer darkness" scriptures were the BEST their writers could do given the paradigms and/or emotions they had at the time?  Alternatively, what if the scary language was chosen for effect?  (D&C 19:6-12 again)

What if the gift Judas offers us is the chance to develop our forgiveness muscles to the point where we forgive someone who has done something we have been told is "unforgivable"?  What if that going-outside-the-box character development challenge is a deliberate part of the lesson plan for our progression? 

What if Joseph Smith's teaching that in order to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost a person "has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it" [emphasis mine] is the most accurate description we have, in that it identifies the "sin against the Holy Ghost" as being the intentional choosing of darkness over light in the present tense?  I submit that while we are knowingly and deliberately choosing darkness over light, and for as long as we continue to do so, we are indeed damned (dammed).  But once we stop doing so, I do not believe God then holds our past error against us for all of eternity.  It would arguably be hypocritical for God to command us to "forgive all men" when he holds grudges for eternity.

That being said, I suppose that theoretically, IF a person chooses darkness over light at every turn forever, then they would remain in "outer darkness" forever.  But the Parable of the Good Shepherd tells me that Christ (and his followers) would never quit trying to bring each one home; the parable of the Prodigal Son tells me that God would welcome any such person with open arms; and the teaching that "we without them cannot be made perfect" tells me that we really are all in this together.  

"The worth of souls is great in the sight of God." D&C 18:10, and I take that to mean "the worth of each soul is great in the sight of God."  I have a hard time imagining God and Mom and all the good kids partying in complete peace and happiness in the Celestial Kingdom while even one of our brothers or sisters is eternally consigned to outer darkness. 

Of course I could be wrong. 

 

What many members of the church fail to realize is that God’s punishment for sin is indeed endless (that it continued for an unending duration of time) unless and until the sinner accepts Christ as his Savior and sincerely repents of his sins.

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. (Mosiah 16)

The reason why the punishment of the sons of perdition never ends is because they refuse to accept Christ as their Savior and repent of their sins. The very reason why the unpardonable sin is unpardonable is because the sons of perdition refuse to exercise faith in Christ and seek divine pardon. In the end, none will receive forgiveness unless they want to be forgiven.

Both Doctrine and Covenants 76 and Doctrine and Covenants 138 make it clear that the only reason why the inheritors of the telestial glory are released from the spirit prison is because they will eventually be willing to accept Christ as their Savior and sincerely repent.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

The above verse is derived from a testimony of the apostle Paul…

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

The following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 138 assert that even those who suffer for their own sins while confined in the spirit prison must eventually be washed clean of their sins by the blood of Christ…

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

The plan of salvation is much less confusing and easy to understand once one realizes that the only way for any of the spirit sons and daughters of God to escape endless punishment is to come unto Christ in faith and repent. For those who steadfastly refuse to come unto Christ and repent, it is as though there was no redemption made.

 

 

 

 

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

What many members of the church fail to realize is that God’s punishment for sin is indeed endless (that it continued for an unending duration of time) unless and until the sinner accepts Christ as his Savior and sincerely repents of his sins.

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. (Mosiah 16)

The reason why the punishment of the sons of perdition never ends is because they refuse to accept Christ as their Savior and repent of their sins. The very reason why the unpardonable sin is unpardonable is because the sons of perdition refuse to exercise faith in Christ and seek divine pardon. In the end, none will receive forgiveness unless they want to be forgiven.

Both Doctrine and Covenants 76 and Doctrine and Covenants 138 make it clear that the only reason why the inheritors of the telestial glory are released from the spirit prison is because they will eventually be willing to accept Christ as their Savior and sincerely repent.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

The above verse is derived from a testimony of the apostle Paul…

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

The following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 138 assert that even those who suffer for their own sins while confined in the spirit prison must eventually be washed clean of their sins by the blood of Christ…

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

The plan of salvation is much less confusing and easy to understand once one realizes that the only way for any of the spirit sons and daughters of God to escape endless punishment is to come unto Christ in faith and repent. For those who steadfastly refuse to come unto Christ and repent, it is as though there was no redemption made.

I’m not sure how any of this disagrees with what manol said here:

14 hours ago, manol said:

I am not certain that everyone WILL choose reunion with God; my belief is that everyone CAN, despite damnation-intensive scriptures to the contrary.  

Mosiah says that those who remain in a fallen state are those who choose to “persist” in their carnal nature.   You later point out from D&C that “the dead who repent will be redeemed”.

All of this corroborates what he said.

[mfbukowski]

I still think we are missing that people in Perdition have to know Christ has the glory of the Sun, and then deny it.

These are not your average sinners, these are militant refusers of Truth standing perfectly before them, and knowingly denying it for the sake of their own pride. 

These are not organized crime murderers who are professional killers even, but they would have have had even visions of the Savior and then DENY it all boldly and THEN become, say professional killers, etc.to qualify for Perdition.

How many get that close to the Lord, then deny it?

Lucifer and his true buddies as I see it, are about all who qualify.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I’m not sure how any of this disagrees with what manol said here:

Mosiah says that those who remain in a fallen state are those who choose to “persist” in their carnal nature.   You later point out from D&C that “the dead who repent will be redeemed”.

All of this corroborates what he said.

Manol started his post by asking if we really do know for sure that the sons of perdition will forever be beyond the reach of salvation? He was wondering if God’s endless punishment isn’t actually endless, that may mean there’s a possibility that the sons of perdition aren’t going to be totally banished from God’s presence forever. My point to him is that God’s punishment really is endless in duration unless and until one is willing to bow the knee in subjection to God the Father and confesses to him that Jesus is Lord and Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 19 testifies that God’s endless punishment isn’t necessarily endless because the expression ‘endless punishment’ equates to the expression God’s punishment, since ‘endless’ is one of God’s names. Again, since Manol was acknowledging that God’s endless punishment isn’t necessarily endless, he was considering the possibility that there might be an eventual way of escape from outer darkness for the sons of perdition. My post addresses this question by affirming that if there is an undisclosed eventual way out for the sons of perdition, it will only be made possible by exercising faith in Christ and his infinite and eternal atonement. The bottom line is that God’s endless punishment truly is endless, but only for those who refuse to submit to God’s sovereignty and fail to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their personal Savior.

There is only one way to be saved, and that is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In light of this incontrovertible fact, we’re told that Christ descended below all things in his suffering, which means that he descended lower in agony than even the sons of perdition. This might mean that in the eternities there may be an eventual way out for them, for why would Christ be required to suffer the pains of the sons of perdition if they are beyond all possibility of healing redemption?

 

 

[manol]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

God’s punishment for sin is indeed endless (that it continued for an unending duration of time) unless and until the sinner accepts Christ as his Savior and sincerely repents of his sins.  [emphasis manol's]

YESSSS!

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The reason why the punishment of the sons of perdition never ends is because they refuse to accept Christ as their Savior and repent of their sins. The very reason why the unpardonable sin is unpardonable is because the sons of perdition refuse to exercise faith in Christ and seek divine pardon. In the end, none will receive forgiveness unless they want to be forgiven. [emphasis teddyaware's]

I agree with this definition - that the sons of perdition are those who do not want to be forgiven.  Imo this is very different from defining the sons of perdition as those who have done something for which they can never ever ever be forgiven. 

So, here's a hypothetical:  If a person who has been in full-on "son of perdition" frame of mind/spirit for however long finally gets his fill of misery ("wickedness never was happiness") and turns to Christ and repents of his sins, then that person is effectively no longer a "son of perdition".  Is that what you're saying? Because if so, I totally agree.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Both Doctrine and Covenants 76 and Doctrine and Covenants 138 make it clear that the only reason why the inheritors of the telestial glory are released from the spirit prison is because they will eventually be willing to accept Christ as their Savior and sincerely repent.

Agreed!

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I’m not sure how any of this disagrees with what manol said here:

Mosiah says that those who remain in a fallen state are those who choose to “persist” in their carnal nature.   You later point out from D&C that “the dead who repent will be redeemed”.

All of this corroborates what he said.

Yup, I think there is a lot of common ground here between teddyaware and me; just a different emphasis.  Thanks for pointing it out. 

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I still think we are missing that people in Perdition have to know Christ has the glory of the Sun, and then deny it.

These are not your average sinners, these are militant refusers of Truth standing perfectly before them, and knowingly denying it for the sake of their own pride. 

These are not organized crime murderers who are professional killers even, but they would have have had even visions of the Savior and then DENY it all boldly and THEN become, say professional killers, etc.to qualify for Perdition.

How many get that close to the Lord, then deny it?

Lucifer and his true buddies as I see it, are about all who qualify.

If YOU were "The Guy in Charge", wouldn't you find a way that anyone, no matter what sins were in their past, could "make it" if they wanted to and put forth the effort, along the lines @teddyaware has described? 

Perhaps there is a bit of Section 19-esque word play going on:  The sin itself may be "unpardonable", but the sinner is not.  "Perdition" may end up being an empty realm.  

Perhaps the principle of love taught in the Parable of the Prodigal Son even applies at the level of God and Mom and Jesus and Lucifer.

Edited June 10 by manol

[manol]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Manol started his post by asking if we really do know for sure that the sons of perdition will forever be beyond the reach of salvation? He was wondering if God’s endless punishment isn’t actually endless, that may mean there’s a possibility that the sons of perdition aren’t going to be totally banished from God’s presence forever. My point to him is that God’s punishment really is endless in duration unless and until one is willing to bow the knee in subjection to God the Father and confesses to him that Jesus is Lord and Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 19 testifies that God’s endless punishment isn’t necessarily endless because the expression ‘endless punishment’ equates to the expression God’s punishment, since ‘endless’ is one of God’s names. [emphasis manol's]

Yup!

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

 Again, since Manol was acknowledging that God’s endless punishment isn’t necessarily endless, he was considering the possibility that there might be an eventual way of escape from outer darkness for the sons of perdition. My post addresses this question by affirming that if there is an undisclosed eventual way out for the sons of perdition, it will only be made possible by exercising faith in Christ and his infinite and eternal atonement. The bottom line is that God’s endless punishment truly is endless, but only for those who refuse to submit to God’s sovereignty and fail to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their personal Savior.

There is only one way to be saved, and that is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  [emphasis manol's] 

Yup!

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

 Christ descended below all things in his suffering, which means that he descended lower in agony than even the sons of perdition. This might mean that in the eternities there may be an eventual way out for them, for why would Christ be required to suffer the pains of the sons of perdition if they are beyond all possibility of healing redemption? [emphasis manol's]

Imo this is BRILLIANT.   Thank you!!

Edited June 10 by manol

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, manol said:

YESSSS!

I agree with this definition - that the sons of perdition are those who do not want to be forgiven.  Imo this is very different from defining the sons of perdition as those who have done something for which they can never ever ever be forgiven. 

So, here's a hypothetical:  If a person who has been in full-on "son of perdition" frame of mind/spirit for however long finally gets his fill of misery ("wickedness never was happiness") and turns to Christ and repents of his sins, then that person is effectively no longer a "son of perdition".  Is that what you're saying? Because if so, I totally agree.

Agreed!

Yup, I think there is a lot of common ground here between teddyaware and me; just a different emphasis.  Thanks for pointing it out. 

If YOU were "The Guy in Charge", wouldn't you find a way that anyone, no matter what sins were in their past, could "make it" if they wanted to and put forth the effort, along the lines @teddyaware has described? 

Perhaps there is a bit of Section 19-esque word play going on:  The sin itself may be "unpardonable", but the sinner is not.  "Perdition" may end up being an empty realm.  

Perhaps the principle of love taught in the Parable of the Prodigal Son even applies at the level of God and Mom and Jesus and Lucifer.

Well put, yep. Desire to repent + some definite evidence ="You really never belonged here" imo.

The purpose of punishment is to TEACH, not avenge the sin. 

The atonement does the rest.

Edited June 11 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, manol said:

I agree with this definition - that the sons of perdition are those who do not want to be forgiven.  Imo this is very different from defining the sons of perdition as those who have done something for which they can never ever ever be forgiven. 

EXACTLY!

Again think of Lucifer. He's the "poster boy".

His entire purpose is to OPPOSE Christ. He knows EXACTLY who Christ is, better even than we are capable knowing him in our stage of progression.

It's not about WHAT they have done, it is about WHY they did it.

Whatever Christ wants, they will oppose, it's not about SIN for them in being "bad boys", it's about open OPPOSITION to the savior for the sake of opposition. 

They invert goodness and evil deliberately.

They don't WANT to be like Christ in any way, shape or form!

Perdition=Satan, not some idiot who, say, kills people for fun, or power.

Edited June 11 by mfbukowski