Why does God have so many bad offspring?

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sure, we often emphasis the same.

But I’m not sure how that answers the questions in the OP. Can you clarify that part?

I don't know either, lol! It just made me think of what I did I guess.

[LoudmouthMormon]

8 hours ago, mbh26 said:

why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children

Do you have children?  If so, do you remember what they were like the first 5-6 years of life?    If you haven't had children, please consider that babies start out as basically utterly self-centered monsters, totally willing to do whatever necessary to satiate their flighty whims, utterly incapable of empathy.  Most of 'em grow out of such things by around age 5-6.

I see a lot of commonalities between young children, and children of God living life on planet earth.  It's a time to grow and learn to become decent people.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

Thanks Teddy.  Do you have an opinion on whether our Heavenly Father was once a flawed and sinful man like us or was He the savior of His mortal world like Jesus is of ours?  It seems to me that in the Pearl of Great Price it's pretty clear that God the Father knew before the earth was created that Jehovah was like unto Him and the only one of His spirit children capable of carrying out the atonement in mortality.  

For those that do achieve exaltation and become gods and goddesses and begat spirit children, are they really the gods and parents of these spirit children or is their God really Jesus?  I know people say that the scriptures say we can be just like God but I don't see how that's possible since no two people are ever exactly alike.  

My opinion is that Heavenly Father could well have been flawed and sinful like us, just as we can become like Him. He may have been a Savior like Jesus, or a savior like we are (“saviors on Mount Zion”) – I do not think it matters as long as we are becoming sanctified and justified with whatever understanding we possess at any given moment. Yes, Jesus was the only one of our “generation” who was sent in His unique role.

No two people are exactly alike, but when we are “one” as Jesus prays for in John 17 (the church of the Firstborn in exaltation), we see and do the work of the Father just He does.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

“Free Will” comes with many blessings, and many horrors. Not to mention the evil world into which we are all born. Many whom we love so very much, we send to places where we sometimes welcome, or other places were we are completely unwanted. But still we go even where we are unwanted, unless it could lead to their untimely death,  they are unsafe places that might break out into war. 

[blackstrap]

I don't think we chose this plan in total ignorance. I believe we had access to at least general info as to how rough this place could , otherwise Satan's plan might have a lesser ability to convince, As it was it drew a third( you can argue semantics here ) who likely feared the problems. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I like how Robert millet explains that perfect is just another term for whole. 

This works for both the word "perfect" and the word for "sin".

The Greek word translated as "perfect" is:

τέλειος, téleios ; g5046
 From    télos {g5056}
 Mean    complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ho {g3588}) completeness
 KJV    of full age, man, perfect
 TGL (PDF)    618
 TGL (IMG)    618
 Note    complete, finished, fully developed
(T  téleios–téleios Note)

And the Greek word translated as "sin" is based on this word:

ἁμαρτάνω, hamartánō ; g264
 From    perhaps from a {g1} (as a negative particle) and the base of méros {g3313}
 Mean    properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e., (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin
 KJV    for your faults, offend, sin, trespass
 TGL (PDF)    30
 TGL (IMG)    30
(A hamartánō–hamartánō TGL (IMG))

So to "sin" is to fall short of the prize or to "miss the mark".  If we understand the "mark" (or goal) to be the inheritance of eternal life, exaltation and eternal increase, the very life that God has (which is to be complete in growth, mental and moral character, etc.), then anything that takes us away from that goal is "sin".  

[rpn]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Jacob 5 talks a good deal about good fruit (tame, or covenant-keeping children of God) and bad fruit (wild, or children without covenant). It seems that bad fruit is the product of decay (v.3; apostasy) and loftiness (v. 48; pride), not whether the fruits' origin could be traced to the mother/natural or other/wild trees, or where their branches were placed.

Ish't Jacob speaking to a group who do know of the words and works of God?  Sinning against the light we already have is wickedness of course, but it isn't always inherently evil.

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

This works for both the word "perfect" and the word for "sin".

The Greek word translated as "perfect" is:

τέλειος, téleios ; g5046
 From    télos {g5056}
 Mean    complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ho {g3588}) completeness
 KJV    of full age, man, perfect
 TGL (PDF)    618
 TGL (IMG)    618
 Note    complete, finished, fully developed
(T  téleios–téleios Note)

And the Greek word translated as "sin" is based on this word:

ἁμαρτάνω, hamartánō ; g264
 From    perhaps from a {g1} (as a negative particle) and the base of méros {g3313}
 Mean    properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e., (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin
 KJV    for your faults, offend, sin, trespass
 TGL (PDF)    30
 TGL (IMG)    30
(A hamartánō–hamartánō TGL (IMG))

So to "sin" is to fall short of the prize or to "miss the mark".  If we understand the "mark" (or goal) to be the inheritance of eternal life, exaltation and eternal increase, the very life that God has (which is to be complete in growth, mental and moral character, etc.), then anything that takes us away from that goal is "sin".  

So, there's no such thing as the perfect sin!

[mbh26]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's something I remember someone that is non LDS Christian saying. But I think it's more along the lines of even the little sins should be grouped all together with the worst sins. Therefore, how very important it is we have a Savior to save us.

Perhaps me adopting this belief that we're all equally flawed because we're all sinners explains my somewhat negative view of humanity.  I've always had a problem with that doctrine and this necessary conclusion about humanity is one of the reasons why.  Even so, it still doesn't add up for me that a sinless God would have so many sinful spirit children.  My intuition is that there are different degrees of sin, obedience, righteousness, charity, etc.  I reject the idea that men and their works are either sinless as Christ or worthless rags.  It makes no more sense to me than does the idea of one heaven and one hell.  

[CV75]

1 minute ago, rpn said:

Ish't Jacob speaking to a group who do know of the words and works of God?  Sinning against the light we already have is wickedness of course, but it isn't always inherently evil.

He uses "good" and "bad" but never mentions sin, light, or wickedness (or righteousness)... but the does mention "evil" fruit as "bad" fruit. The fruit wasn't inherently bad or evil but became such through apostasy and pride; even the wild branches brought forth tame fruit when grafted into the covenant. Similarly, I think we can surmise that the fruit of the original, tame tree was good only so long as the branches did not draw upon apostasy or pride to instead of the root (Christ).

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

Perhaps me adopting this belief that we're all equally flawed because we're all sinners explains my somewhat negative view of humanity.  I've always had a problem with that doctrine and this necessary conclusion about humanity is one of the reasons why.  Even so, it still doesn't add up for me that a sinless God would have so many sinful spirit children.  My intuition is that there are different degrees of sin, obedience, righteousness, charity, etc.  I reject the idea that men and their works are either sinless as Christ or worthless rags.  It makes no more sense to me than does the idea of one heaven and one hell.  

How do you understand the third part of God's children being cast out of heaven, in relation to a sinless God having so many sinful spirit children?

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which leads to the question whether sinless and perfect are the same as we often imply or just adjacent.

In the New Testament Christ gave the commandmelt to be perfect as His Father is. After His resurrection in the Americas He gave the commandment to be perfect as He and the Father is.

I side with the idea that sinless is a subset of perfect.

[Nofear]

3 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I don't think we chose this plan in total ignorance. I believe we had access to at least general info as to how rough this place could , otherwise Satan's plan might have a lesser ability to convince, As it was it drew a third( you can argue semantics here ) who likely feared the problems. 

Not only did we understand it, this world is far from the first to have it implemented on. We knew it could work. We knew that it carried risk. Lucifer tried to offer a riskless alternative. I'm rather sure he was more persuasive than our scriptural accounts give. For me, that's ok though. I sided with Christ then and do so now. I don't need to be repersuaded.

[mbh26]

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do you understand the third part of God's children being cast out of heaven, in relation to a sinless God having so many sinful spirit children?

I don't understand it very well.  I believed in the axiom, "I know I'm somebody because God doesn't make any junk."  And yet God created Satan, and 1/3 of the demons that hate and seek to torment us in this world.  

Edited May 6 by mbh26

[mbh26]

19 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Not only did we understand it, this world is far from the first to have it implemented on. We knew it could work. We knew that it carried risk. Lucifer tried to offer a riskless alternative. I'm rather sure he was more persuasive than our scriptural accounts give. For me, that's ok though. I sided with Christ then and do so now. I don't need to be repersuaded.

I definitely side with Christ.  I love your username.  Satan still tries to persuade through fear.  The war in heaven is indeed still going on.  

Edited May 6 by mbh26

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

In the New Testament Christ gave the commandmelt to be perfect as His Father is. After His resurrection in the Americas He gave the commandment to be perfect as He and the Father is.

I side with the idea that sinless is a subset of perfect.

I prefer Brigham's take on this:

"Those who do right, and seek the glory of the Father in heaven, whether their knowledge be little or much, or whether they can do little, or much, if they do the very best they know how, they are perfect. . . . “Be ye as perfect as ye can,” for that is all we can do, though it is written, “Be ye perfect as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” To be as perfect as we possibly can, according to our knowledge, is to be just as perfect as our Father in heaven is. He cannot be any more perfect than He knows how, any more than we. When we are doing as well as we know how in the sphere and station which we occupy here, we are justified."

[Nofear]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I prefer Brigham's take on this:

"Those who do right, and seek the glory of the Father in heaven, whether their knowledge be little or much, or whether they can do little, or much, if they do the very best they know how, they are perfect. . . . “Be ye as perfect as ye can,” for that is all we can do, though it is written, “Be ye perfect as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” To be as perfect as we possibly can, according to our knowledge, is to be just as perfect as our Father in heaven is. He cannot be any more perfect than He knows how, any more than we. When we are doing as well as we know how in the sphere and station which we occupy here, we are justified."

I agree with Pres. Young. I read it as an pragmatic injunction about the here and now ("sphere and station which we occupy here"). If I get an A+ in my 1st grade class, it's just as "perfect" as the A+ as someone in their senior college Differential Equations class. Still, I as the 1st grader still have a long ways to go. Similarly, my 1st Grade body might be "perfect" as far as its developmental stage, but it is still developing and not the same as the "perfect" body of the college student. I as the 1st grader still have a long ways to go.

[MiserereNobis]

As I understand the LDS position, there is no ontological difference between us and Jesus. We are all spirit children of Heavenly Father. How then was Jesus sinless but no other spirit child of Heavenly Father is? Was there a difference between Him and us in the pre-existence?

[bluebell]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

As I understand the LDS position, there is no ontological difference between us and Jesus. We are all spirit children of Heavenly Father. How then was Jesus sinless but no other spirit child of Heavenly Father is? Was there a difference between Him and us in the pre-existence?

That basic doctrine is that Jesus was the best of us even then, and was Firstborn of all spirits.  He was a God before He was born.

Here's a pretty in depth chapter on the subject from the book Jesus the Christ, by Talmage. Some of the Bible scholarship might have changed (it was written a long time ago), but it explains our doctrine well.

 

[MiserereNobis]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That basic doctrine is that Jesus was the best of us even then, and was Firstborn of all spirits.  He was a God before He was born.

Here's a pretty in depth chapter on the subject from the book Jesus the Christ, by Talmage. Some of the Bible scholarship might have changed (it was written a long time ago), but it explains our doctrine well.

 

It says he was (fore)ordained to be the Savior. Did this give Him additional grace or will power (or whatever the proper LDS term would be) to remain sinless?

I also see in note 1 on "Graded Intelligences" that Christ was among the best or exalted intelligences. Is this what allowed him to remain sinless, too? However, Satan is listed among those, too.

I guess I'm trying to understand in the LDS beliefs if Christ had something extra that we don't have, beyond simple will power, to remain sinless. I look at all goodness coming from grace through Christ, so I'm just trying to see how that would apply to Him.

Thanks for the reference!

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

That's not true! We were all spirit matter, the same spirit matter, even our God of this earth. The only reason God is our God of this earth is because his God made him before he our God made us. Our God has a God, you know that's the truth, why don't you tell her the truth??

Bugger off and keep your trolling to the other thread. I'm having a sincere conversation here.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

That's not true! We were all spirit matter, the same spirit matter, even our God of this earth. The only reason God is our God of this earth is because his God made him before he our God made us. Our God has a God, you know that's the truth, why don't you tell her the truth??

This book has been in circulation for almost a 100 years.  It used to be given to every missionary to read while they served so they would understand the doctrine they were teaching about Christ.  Even our basic scriptures describe the differences in intelligences before they were created, with some people above others.

This is an accurate general descriptions of our beliefs about Christ in the premortal world.  Your version of the gospel is not one that most latter-day saints (or nonmembers who have LDS friends and colleagues) recognize.  

And MiserereNobis is a man.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It says he was (fore)ordained to be the Savior. Did this give Him additional grace or will power (or whatever the proper LDS term would be) to remain sinless?

I also see in note 1 on "Graded Intelligences" that Christ was among the best or exalted intelligences. Is this what allowed him to remain sinless, too? However, Satan is listed among those, too.

I guess I'm trying to understand in the LDS beliefs if Christ had something extra that we don't have, beyond simple will power, to remain sinless. I look at all goodness coming from grace through Christ, so I'm just trying to see how that would apply to Him.

Thanks for the reference!

Basically we believe He just is better than the rest of us. He has/had the capacity to be sinless because He is a God and He was foreordained because (unlike satan) His whole focus was doing the will of God the Father and His love for us, not Himself.

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It says he was (fore)ordained to be the Savior. Did this give Him additional grace or will power (or whatever the proper LDS term would be) to remain sinless?

I also see in note 1 on "Graded Intelligences" that Christ was among the best or exalted intelligences. Is this what allowed him to remain sinless, too? However, Satan is listed among those, too.

I guess I'm trying to understand in the LDS beliefs if Christ had something extra that we don't have, beyond simple will power, to remain sinless. I look at all goodness coming from grace through Christ, so I'm just trying to see how that would apply to Him.

Thanks for the reference!

I suspect there was some kind of ontological difference between Christ and the rest of us. We just have no idea what it could be. On Earth it was being divine and mortal but I suspect there was some difference between His creation and ours. That is mostly a guess though.

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect there was some kind of ontological difference between Christ and the rest of us. We just have no idea what it could be. On Earth it was being divine and mortal but I suspect there was some difference between His creation and ours. That is mostly a guess though.

You mean, like the virgin birth?