BYU Study: Pornography use at any level harms romantic relationships

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That makes perfect sense. My point wasn't that porn is "healthy" or "positive," but that people who seem to have the worst problem with it tend to be the ones who blow it way out of proportion.

Ehh..This one's hard for me to gage. I think that's probably true to a point. Particularly for lower amounts or inconsistent viewing. But I would expect that to reduce with really high use or use that does show addictive patterns. Then the beliefs around the porn is a small part of a larger problem. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

 

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

There are biological reasons reasons some are prone to become alcoholics and drug addicts though where if the thing never existed, neither would the addiction.  I don’t know about other types of non chemical additions, but I wouldn’t be surprised. 

https://nida.nih.gov/publications/drugfacts/genetics-epigenetics-addiction

While I am mot an expert on the subject I have read that there is no alcoholic gene.  One may have genetics that tilt them to be more susceptible to abusing substances like alcohol or other addictive substances.  But there does not seem to be a gene that someone has that if they start drinking it will cause them to be alcoholic. 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

4. Alternative Coping Mechanisms: Sorting out pornography issues with these young men involved a multivariate approach.  Success was intermittent because the individual was intermittent in his desire to address and overcome the issue, or was not in the ward long enough to fully address these issues, etc.  Nevertheless, I did see some real improvement in discussing the following items:

For far too many, it has nothing to do with not having enough desire to stop.  

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

• "Addiction" or "Coping Mechanism" - Some of these men clearly had an "addiction" to pornography (I use that term as a layman).  Others, however, seemed to use pornography as a coping mechanism.  There was almost always a strong correlation between the individual using porn and the individual being/feeling stressed, tired or bored.  They often reported that taking specific and ongoing steps to alleviate these issues (stress, fatigue, boredom) resulted in a reduction in both their actual use of pornography and their impulses/desires to use it.  

All porn addicts use porn as a coping mechanism for "stress, fatigue, and boredom".  I don't know how one would distinguish an addict from a non-addict on that alone.  The difference is that one has the power to stop if they want, where the other doesn't, even when faced with negative consequences of losing a wife or job over it, etc.  It is difficult for one to know if they are an addict until they are faced with that dilemma, and because it is usually kept hidden from others, many are never faced with that dilemma until they are caught - then they often lie, keep using, learn from their mistake and hide it even better.   Most addicts would never admit that they are addicted.  They can stop whenever they want...except, they never really convince themselves that they want it enough to try. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate on this?  When you say "it is our perceptions that are the problem," what are you referencing?  Our perceptions of what?

Mostly of ourselves. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand what you are saying here.  What is the relationship you see between the use of pornography and "core beliefs, even subconscious beliefs about oneself"?

Could you elaborate on this?  What do you mean by "toxic shame?"  Shame, like "guilt" and "anger" and a few other emotions, does not seem inherently bad, as evidenced by you modifying it with "toxic."  So what manifestations of shame are "toxic," and which are not?

Healing the Shame that Binds You should be required reading for all bishops and for all those who truly struggle with pornography.  It addresses all of this.  This goes into our self perception I mentioned above, and the core beliefs we have about ourselves.  John Bradshaw distinguishes "toxic shame" from other shame/guilt in this way - healthy guilt/shame = I made a mistake.   Toxic shame = I am a mistake.  It is commonly associated with the belief that one is unlovable.  Here's the thing though, many who struggle with it can't recognize it in themselves.  They tuck it away in the deep recess of their heart and never go there.  Up until my early 30's I NEVER would have acknowledged being an addict or suffering from "toxic shame".  I would have mocked anyone who suggest as much.  It took a literal vision from God during meditative prayer to show me the sickly condition of my heart.  He took me there in an a way that felt like an Alma the younger experience.  Even after the vision, I didn't have a name for what it was I experienced and didn't have the words to describe the emotion of what I experienced, but I tasted of the darkest pain.  I had successfully stuffed this away for most of my life which.  After I was led to "Healing the Shame that Binds You", that emotion I felt finally had a name.  The book was astonishing to me and it felt like magic that someone could so perfectly describe what I experienced in that prayer and throughout the undercurrent of my life.   I was mostly a happy kid and adult.  But there was always a undercurrent of loneliness and the feeling that no one really knew me.  I couldn't ever explain it because I had lots of friends and family relationships.  It was a mystery to me. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I agree with this, but I don't understand it relative to the use of pornography.  I think this sort of shame usually arises as a consequent effect (of using pornography), but you seem to be suggesting it is a antecedent or cause.  Am I reading your correctly?

Yes, you are reading me correctly.  Toxic shame is always the antecedent or cause of all addiction, I don't care what you are addicted to.  Again, see John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds You.   I am not usually one to paint with such a broad stroke and make universal and generalizing statements such as this, but I am convinced that it is true.  I think shame is the least understood and most secret and hidden source of most of the worlds problems today - not just addiction.  I am convinced this is true and I think it is spelled out in the garden experience.  

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think in our day and age, most exposure to pornography is precipitated by curiosity and burgeoning sexual feelings associated with puberty.  The ease of access then turns the idly curious foray into a sequence of them, and over time a pattern emerges.  A habit, or an addiction.  This can happen to people who feel great about themselves as much as those who feel terrible about themselves.

I don't disagree.  Addicts aren't intentionally going out looking for porn or other substances/behaviors to numb internal pains.  Many honestly can't recognize these root issues in themselves and may not identify with the pain due to successful coping mechanisms to hide it even from themselves.  It's too painful to identify it and sit with it.  But it will manifest in certain ways, they will usually be super over-achievers (more than human), or underachievers with low self-esteem (less than human) and they will all identify with feeling lonely and perhaps even unknown by loved ones.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Hmm.  I would like to see some empirical data on this.  My sense is that, for some, having feelings of isolation, guilt, self-dislike/loathing, etc. may well precede the use of pornography, but that plenty of happy and well-adjusted people start looking at it in their teens, and end up with pornography habits/addictions, such that the isolation, guilt, etc. are consequent, rather than antecedent, to the use of pornography.

All of my bishops would have classified me as "happy" and "well-adjusted" too.  Every. Single. One.  None of them were concerned about addiction with me.  That is the thing about those suffering from toxic shame - they wear masks incredibly convincingly.  When I revealed my inner-most feelings as I worked through these issues to develop open and honest intimacy with those I loved the most - my closest allies and closest loved ones were flabbergasted.  They NEVER knew the real me until that moment that I came out of hiding.  I couldn't let them in before.  I don't think I really fully understood the real me either as I was so successful at tucking it away with coping mechanisms that evolved into addiction.   I didn't go out seeking it.  It found me.  I thought the same thing of myself - this is just a natural and normal curiosity for a teenager.  No biggie!  I can quit anytime.   I'm happy!  I swear! 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by pogi

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Hmm.  I would like to see some empirical data on this.  My sense is that, for some, having feelings of isolation, guilt, self-dislike/loathing, etc. may well precede the use of pornography, but that plenty of happy and well-adjusted people start looking at it in their teens, and end up with pornography habits/addictions, such that the isolation, guilt, etc. are consequent, rather than antecedent, to the use of pornography.

If you really are interested in understand the underlying cause of addictive behaviors including porn addictions or sexual addictions I recommend this book:

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts-Close Encounters with Addiction

 

Quote

 

From street-dwelling drug addicts to high-functioning workaholics, the continuum of addiction cuts a wide and painful swath through our culture.

Blending first-person accounts, riveting case studies, cutting-edge research and passionate argument, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction (available for order in Canadian and U.S. editions. UK Edition: Out October 2018) takes a panoramic yet highly intimate look at this widespread and perplexing human ailment.

Countering prevailing notions of addiction as either a genetic disease or an individual moral failure, Dr. Gabor Maté presents an eloquent case that addiction – all addiction – is in fact a case of human development gone askew.

Dr. Maté, who for twelve years practiced medicine in Vancouver’s notorious Downtown Eastside – North America’s most concentrated area of drug use, begins by telling the stories of his patients, who, in their destitution and uniformly tragic histories, represent one extreme of the addictive spectrum. With his trademark compassion and unflinching narrative eye, he brings to life their ill-fated and mostly misunderstood struggle for relief or escape, through substance use, from the pain that has tormented them since childhood. He also shows how the behavioural addictions of society’s more fortunate members – including himself – differ only in degree of severity from the drug habits of his Downtown Eastside patients, and how in reality there is only one addiction process, its core objective being the self-soothing of deep-seated fears and discomforts.

Turning to the neurobiological roots of addiction, Dr. Maté presents an astonishing array of scientific evidence showing conclusively that:

1. addictive tendencies arise in the parts of our brains governing some of our most basic and life-sustaining needs and functions: incentive and motivation, physical and emotional pain relief, the regulation of stress, and the capacity to feel and receive love;
2. these brain circuits develop, or don’t develop, largely under the influence of the nurturing environment in early life, and that therefore addiction represents a failure of these crucial systems to mature in the way nature intended; and
3. the human brain continues to develop new circuitry throughout the lifespan, including well into adulthood, giving new hope for people mired in addictive patterns. Dr. Maté then examines the current mainstream.

 

https://drgabormate.com/book/in-the-realm-of-hungry-ghosts/

 

I think you will find many of your assumptions and preconceived notions about addictions will be turned on their head.

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If you really are interested in understand the underlying cause of addictive behaviors including porn addictions or sexual addictions I recommend this book:

Sounds like a good book.  

Quote

Countering prevailing notions of addiction as either a genetic disease or an individual moral failure, Dr. Gabor Maté presents an eloquent case that addiction – all addiction – is in fact a case of human development gone askew.

Quote

 there is only one addiction process, its core objective being the self-soothing of deep-seated fears and discomforts.

Bingo!

It doesn't sound like he comes out and names the beast that is those "deep-seated fears and discomforts", but John Bradshaw identifies it as toxic shame.  I agree 100% that there is only one addiction process and it is correctly identified as "human development gone askew" resulting in "deep-seated fears and discomforts".  That is exactly it.    

[why me]

The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn movie being made in real time. It can be quite boring. One sees all the imperfections of the actors or 'talent' as they are called in the industry. And as humans are not perfect, the scene being shot is much different than the finished product. And for the actors it is just a job.

[Teancum]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Bingo!

It doesn't sound like he comes out and names the beast that is those "deep-seated fears and discomforts", but John Bradshaw identifies it as toxic shame.  I agree 100% that there is only one addiction process and it is correctly identified as "human development gone askew" resulting in "deep-seated fears and discomforts".  That is exactly it. 

It is a good book.  He focuses on trauma quite a bit especially child hood trauma which does drive feelings of shame. It is a long book but well written and worth the read for anyone interested. And while his experience is with severe drug addicts he expands his experience to other addictions and compulsions, even his own workaholic issues as well as what he feels is a compulsive behavior he has had with buying classical music.  He also focuses on better ways to work with those that have addictions, and in particular the ones society views as more notorious and that often cause those so addicted to be looked upon as moral failures.

[CV75]

I think the Church's emotional resilience course [Emotional Resilience (churchofjesuschrist.org)] would help many who struggle with porn, and of course the addiction recovery program and outside professional treatment as warranted. The Church's offerings are a good place to start because their application would help a sufferer access correct doctrine, the gift of the Holy Ghost and spiritual gifts directed at their particular personal needs and help them succeed in any avenue the Lord directs them to pursue. The Comforter is the ultimate Balm of Gilead.

I am reminded of the oft-cited principle, whatever the cause of the hole: “There is a God–shaped vacuum in the heart of each man, which cannot be satisfied by any created thing but only by God the Creator, made known through Jesus Christ.”  God Sized Hole John 4:13-14 ESV – Faith Fellowship St Pete

Edited March 23 by CV75

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, why me said:

The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn movie being made in real time. It can be quite boring. One sees all the imperfections of the actors or 'talent' as they are called in the industry. And as humans are not perfect, the scene being shot is much different than the finished product. And for the actors it is just a job.

Sorry but this is about one of the most silly suggestions I think I have ever seen anyone make.

[Hamilton Porter]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, real, maskless, shameless, vulnerable, deep and genuine connection is the key.  A person needs to feel seen for who they are, nasty warts and all, examined from the inside out (too many don't allow this to happen because of the shame) and accepted/loved anyway.  It is not about connections made at a club and one-night stands. 

I mean, the connection doesn't have to be perfect to be an improvement over a connection with an inanimate iphone. Of course, from an LDS perspective a one-night stand is far more sinful. But it's up to the guy what kind of connection with women he wants to pursue.

In Japan, you have a whole generation of men addicted to porn who aren't even attracted to real women. 

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I mean, the connection doesn't have to be perfect to be an improvement over a connection with an inanimate iphone. Of course, from an LDS perspective a one-night stand is far more sinful. But it's up to the guy what kind of connection with women he wants to pursue.

In Japan, you have a whole generation of men addicted to porn who aren't even attracted to real women. 

If he is an addict, it ain’t gonna help.  He is safer sticking to the phone than trying to get sexual attention from real women in an attempt to heal himself.  

I had lots of friends/girl friends but there was always an undercurrent of loneliness and feeling unknown/unseen.  When you are operating from behind a mask ”connections” are only to the character you are hiding behind.  Nothing but genuine intimacy will do.  Any other “improvement” is just a distraction from the work of the real thing.

True intimacy is anything but “perfect”, but they are open, vulnerable and honest.

Edited March 23 by pogi

[Hamilton Porter]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

If he is an addict, it ain’t gonna help.  He is safer sticking to the phone than trying to get sexual attention from real women in an attempt to heal himself.  

If someone is meeting women, is he still an addict?

I don't know. Kissing a beautiful woman you just met is very therapeutic. Just my experience, I guess.

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

If someone is meeting women, is he still an addict?

I don't know. Kissing a beautiful woman you just met is very therapeutic. Just my experience, I guess.

If he was an addict before, yes.  Meeting and kissing a girl/s without doing other work won’t change that.  It’s all still part of the mask.  Its superficial and fleeting passion.  Nothing healing about it. Of course it will feel really good.  So does porn.  That doesn’t mean you are healing.

 

Edited March 24 by pogi

[webbles]

I found another article about this study that looks like it has more details - https://www.psypost.org/2023/01/pornography-use-tends-to-have-a-negative-association-with-relationship-stability-study-finds-64694

It describes a little of who the participants were:

Quote

The researchers used the online data collection firm Qualtrics to recruit a sample of 3,750 U.S. adults (71% female and 28% male) who were currently in a committed relationship. The mean age of the sample was 38 years old and the average relationship length was 8.75 years.

The participants indicated how often in the last 12 months they had viewed or used different types of pornography, reported how satisfied they were with various aspects of their relationship, and completed an assessment of relationship stability. They also completed a measure of perceived addiction to pornography (e.g. “I feel unable to stop my use of online pornography”).

Finally, the participants indicated whether spirituality was an important part of life, how often they prayed, and how important they considered their religious faith to be. The responses were averaged to create a religiosity score.

It is interesting that a large majority (71%) of the participants were female.

The article also mentions two takeaways:

Quote

The first main takeaway is that regardless of individual factors, pornography use tended to have a negative effect on the stability of relationships

Quote

The second main takeaway is that these individual factors can exaggerate the negative effect of pornography use on relationship quality

The first one is interesting because it is specifically talking about "stability" and not "quality".  They mention it later that there is "no direct relationship found between pornography use and relationship satisfaction".

So, pornography has a negative effect to the stability of relationships but doesn't have a direct relationship to the satisfaction in relationship.  But once you add in religion or addiction, then it negatively affects satisfaction in addition to the stability.  I'm curious on why stability would be negatively effected but not satisfaction.

 

For me, I think the most interesting takeaway is:

Quote

“We looked at both mainstream pornography use and the use of more aggressive forms of pornography and surprisingly found little differences between them,”

I would have thought that more aggressive forms of pornography would have a stronger effect. 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, why me said:

The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn movie being made in real time. It can be quite boring. One sees all the imperfections of the actors or 'talent' as they are called in the industry. And as humans are not perfect, the scene being shot is much different than the finished product. And for the actors it is just a job.

Nice, so a fireside where you just show uncut footage?

This won’t work. It might take the veneer off of porn but if you are dealing with an addiction being disillusioned with the industry isn’t going to solve it. I have talked to people who act in porn films and most of them say they just prefer the amateur content when they watch it or switch to written erotica. I have no reason to believe they were clinical addicts.

[Tweed1944]

I once saw a comment that research had shown that couples that prayer together achieved greater pleasure in the act of love. Women love  emotional intimacy.  Movies have o much skin which is why I loved the Green Mile. When Tom Hanks infection is cured and he goes home to make love to his wife you don't get an eyeful of naked flesh. 

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Tweed1944 said:

I once saw a comment that research had shown that couples that prayer together achieved greater pleasure in the act of love. Women love  emotional intimacy.  Movies have o much skin which is why I loved the Green Mile. When Tom Hanks infection is cured and he goes home to make love to his wife you don't get an eyeful of naked flesh. 

That is a difficult issue because I think that skin shouldn't be seen as dirty, evil, and porn in and of itself.  That is my concern with this study - people might react by becoming even more aggressive with their   I think that attitude only exacerbates the shame and stigma.  I remember as a young kid my mom would change the channel during underwear or perfume commercials.  She would say in disgust "I wish they wouldn't show this stuff on tv".   I could sense from her that there was something really evil and wrong about it which made me feel all the worse about myself for being naturally intrigued by the opposite sex and sexuality in general.   "There must be something really wrong with me", I would think.  "Good kids wouldn't be attracted to this".  "I am the bishops son, I need to repent for wanting to see it."   Toxic shame and self-beliefs can begin with subtle messages that parents might not even realize they are feeding.  

Kids need to know that their sexual attraction and curiosity is healthy and normal and not sinful and wrong.  They need to know that sexuality is good and beautiful.  That the human body is good and beautiful.  Kids seeing some skin is not going to turn them into addicts, but stigmatizing it, hiding it as if it is poison, and shaming for it might.  It is not the skin that is the problem, it is our unhealthy perceptions of ourselves in relation to it that is the problem.  Kid's are going to be exposed and they need to know the healthy way to feel about themselves after seeing it.   Of course they need to learn boundaries and what is appropriate and what is not, and that is a line that each parent must decide for themselves, but whatever it is, the most important thing is that the kid understands that what they are feeling is normal and is not evil or sinful, even if the material is inappropriate, and they need to be given tools on how to react to those feelings when they arise in healthy ways. 

Edited March 24 by pogi

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

That is a difficult issue because I think that skin shouldn't be seen as dirty, evil, and porn in and of itself.  That is my concern with this study - people might react by becoming even more aggressive with their   I think that attitude only exacerbates the shame and stigma.  I remember as a young kid my mom would change the channel during underwear or perfume commercials.  She would say in disgust "I wish they wouldn't show this stuff on tv".   I could sense from her that there was something really evil and wrong about it which made me feel all the worse about myself for being naturally intrigued by the opposite sex and sexuality in general.   "There must be something really wrong with me", I would think.  "Good kids wouldn't be attracted to this".  "I am the bishops son, I need to repent for wanting to see it."   Toxic shame and self-beliefs can begin with subtle messages that parents might not even realize they are feeding.  

Kids need to know that their sexual attraction and curiosity is healthy and normal and not sinful and wrong.  They need to know that sexuality is good and beautiful.  That the human body is good and beautiful.  Kids seeing some skin is not going to turn them into addicts, but stigmatizing it, hiding it as if it is poison, and shaming for it might.  It is not the skin that is the problem, it is our unhealthy perceptions of ourselves in relation to it that is the problem.  Kid's are going to be exposed and they need to know the healthy way to feel about themselves after seeing it.   Of course they need to learn boundaries and what is appropriate and what is not, and that is a line that each parent must decide for themselves, but whatever it is, the most important thing is that the kid understands that what they are feeling is normal and is not evil or sinful, even if the material is inappropriate, and they need to be given tools on how to react to those feelings when they arise in healthy ways. 

You have a really good understanding of this topic IMO.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

That is a difficult issue because I think that skin shouldn't be seen as dirty, evil, and porn in and of itself.  That is my concern with this study - people might react by becoming even more aggressive with their   I think that attitude only exacerbates the shame and stigma.  I remember as a young kid my mom would change the channel during underwear or perfume commercials.  She would say in disgust "I wish they wouldn't show this stuff on tv".   I could sense from her that there was something really evil and wrong about it which made me feel all the worse about myself for being naturally intrigued by the opposite sex and sexuality in general.   "There must be something really wrong with me", I would think.  "Good kids wouldn't be attracted to this".  "I am the bishops son, I need to repent for wanting to see it."   Toxic shame and self-beliefs can begin with subtle messages that parents might not even realize they are feeding.  

Kids need to know that their sexual attraction and curiosity is healthy and normal and not sinful and wrong.  They need to know that sexuality is good and beautiful.  That the human body is good and beautiful.  Kids seeing some skin is not going to turn them into addicts, but stigmatizing it, hiding it as if it is poison, and shaming for it might.  It is not the skin that is the problem, it is our unhealthy perceptions of ourselves in relation to it that is the problem.  Kid's are going to be exposed and they need to know the healthy way to feel about themselves after seeing it.   Of course they need to learn boundaries and what is appropriate and what is not, and that is a line that each parent must decide for themselves, but whatever it is, the most important thing is that the kid understands that what they are feeling is normal and is not evil or sinful, even if the material is inappropriate, and they need to be given tools on how to react to those feelings when they arise in healthy ways. 

This.

[smac97]

On 3/23/2023 at 10:47 AM, jkwilliams said:

That makes perfect sense. My point wasn't that porn is "healthy" or "positive," but that people who seem to have the worst problem with it tend to be the ones who blow it way out of proportion.

This is an interesting comment, thank you for sharing.  I struggle with understanding the proper sense of "proportion" that ought to be attached to viewing pornography.  The "proportion" in this case seems to be quite an "eye of the beholder" thing.  Some people think that looking at porn is no big deal. 

A faithful Latter-day Saint man may rationalize his behavior that way, but what about his wife?  Can it be easily said that a woman who feels a profound sense of betrayal arising from her husband's addiction to pornography is "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have an acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, but with a lot of effort and help he overcame it.  He even co-wrote a book about his experience with his wife.  Years later, however, his wife filed for divorce and took every opportunity to point out his addiction during the proceedings.  Was she being opportunistic?  Or, putting aside the religious argument (about forgiveness), was she justified in harboring resentments about it?

I have another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and was not able to fully overcome it.  His wife hung on for quite a while, but they eventually divorced.  Was she justified in that?  Or was she "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have yet another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and over a course of years was able to overcome it.  He was a convert to the Church, and the addiction went back to his teen years.  Interestingly, he was seemingly more bothered by it than his wife was.  She was unhappy with his relapses, but recognized his efforts, and also felt that a years-long addiction might take years to overcome, so she had quite a bit of patience with it.  She was, overall, pretty sanguine during his efforts, and while I don't like to say that she didn't "blow it way out of proportion," her calm and patience and continuing support were central to this man's efforts to overcome his addiction.  

I'm not really presenting an argument here.  Just collating data, as it were.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A faithful Latter-day Saint man may rationalize his behavior that way, but what about his wife?  Can it be easily said that a woman who feels a profound sense of betrayal arising from her husband's addiction to pornography is "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

Yes, that would be blowing it out of proportion.  She is not to be blamed for this perspective, but no woman should EVER take a clinical addiction personally and view it as a "betrayal".   My wife almost left me for that reason.  Spouses need serious support through this.   As if dealing with addiction in a marriage is not hard enough, when one takes it personally and has a terribly skewed perspective of the issue, it makes it that much more difficult.   My wife had to detoxify from all the cultural and church narratives about porn-users she grew up with.  She is actually quite upset at the church for the unnecessary trauma she went through as she was faced with my addiction.  She sees now that what she was taught was really damaging to both the addict and the spouse and was harmful to our relationship, creating unnecessary hardships and struggles.  This all seems to all be born out by the data showing that religion exacerbates hardship and relationship difficulties with this issue and increases risk for divorce.    

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I have an acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, but with a lot of effort and help he overcame it.  He even co-wrote a book about his experience with his wife.  Years later, however, his wife filed for divorce and took every opportunity to point out his addiction during the proceedings.  Was she being opportunistic?  Or, putting aside the religious argument (about forgiveness), was she justified in harboring resentments about it?

I have another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and was not able to fully overcome it.  His wife hung on for quite a while, but they eventually divorced.  Was she justified in that?  Or was she "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have yet another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and over a course of years was able to overcome it.  He was a convert to the Church, and the addiction went back to his teen years.  Interestingly, he was seemingly more bothered by it than his wife was.  She was unhappy with his relapses, but recognized his efforts, and also felt that a years-long addiction might take years to overcome, so she had quite a bit of patience with it.  She was, overall, pretty sanguine during his efforts, and while I don't like to say that she didn't "blow it way out of proportion," her calm and patience and continuing support were central to this man's efforts to overcome his addiction.  

I'm not really presenting an argument here.  Just collating data, as it were.

Thanks,

-Smac

Certainly "addiction" is a concern in any relationship.  But it doesn't look like that is what jkwilliams was talking about. 

Edited March 24 by pogi

[Meadowchik]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is an interesting comment, thank you for sharing.  I struggle with understanding the proper sense of "proportion" that ought to be attached to viewing pornography.  The "proportion" in this case seems to be quite an "eye of the beholder" thing.  Some people think that looking at porn is no big deal. 

A faithful Latter-day Saint man may rationalize his behavior that way, but what about his wife?  Can it be easily said that a woman who feels a profound sense of betrayal arising from her husband's addiction to pornography is "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have an acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, but with a lot of effort and help he overcame it.  He even co-wrote a book about his experience with his wife.  Years later, however, his wife filed for divorce and took every opportunity to point out his addiction during the proceedings.  Was she being opportunistic?  Or, putting aside the religious argument (about forgiveness), was she justified in harboring resentments about it?

I have another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and was not able to fully overcome it.  His wife hung on for quite a while, but they eventually divorced.  Was she justified in that?  Or was she "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have yet another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and over a course of years was able to overcome it.  He was a convert to the Church, and the addiction went back to his teen years.  Interestingly, he was seemingly more bothered by it than his wife was.  She was unhappy with his relapses, but recognized his efforts, and also felt that a years-long addiction might take years to overcome, so she had quite a bit of patience with it.  She was, overall, pretty sanguine during his efforts, and while I don't like to say that she didn't "blow it way out of proportion," her calm and patience and continuing support were central to this man's efforts to overcome his addiction.  

I'm not really presenting an argument here.  Just collating data, as it were.

Thanks,

-Smac

When children young as seven think it might be better to die then risk sinning when they're eight, they are subjects of extremely unhealthy indoctrination. Fast forward a few years later when puberty and hormones come, and even the most chaste youth will be battling internally with what they're taught is evil sexual "temptation." 

This is an unhealthy environment to which (I am confident in guessing) your above anecdotes are very closely related. It is an environment where even in a marriage in the "covenant path," it is quite common for spouse to experience great difficulty enjoying the gift of sexuality given them, and very great difficulty not feeling shame.

Furthermore the patriarchal structure and gendered marital roles compound the dysfunctions. Namely those dysfunctions are

1)a hypero-obsession with worthiness and sin

2)which specifically emphasizes healthy sexual experiences as our spiritual enemies

3)then finally when sexual relationships are "God-ordained," they are so in a rigid paradigm of gender roles where the relationship is considered more successful when each spouse is obedient to the third party, the church (rather than the much more delicate and nuanced dynamic of loving each as human beings)

4)and where the church functions in a distinctly male-dominated leadership structure which therefore depends upon men's spiritual success. This type of structure will inevitably push and pull men who are struggling anywhere on the spectrum of sinfulness. It will shame men for perfectly healthy behaviour yet protect men who are abusive because it needs them to maintain its structure.

Porn "addiction" is a symptom of these dysfunctions. It is a symptom of a worldview of unworthiness pressed into the minds of children. It is a symptom of toxic attitudes about sex. It is a symptom of sexist structures in the home and the church institution as a whole.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Meadowchik

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Yes, that would be blowing it out of proportion.  She is not to be blamed for this perspective, but no woman should EVER take a clinical addiction personally and view it as a "betrayal".   My wife almost left me for that reason.  Spouses need serious support through this.   As if dealing with addiction in a marriage is not hard enough, when one takes it personally and has a terribly skewed perspective of the issue, it makes it that much more difficult.   My wife had to detoxify from all the cultural and church narratives about porn-users she grew up with.  She is actually quite upset at the church for the unnecessary trauma she went through as she was faced with my addiction.  She sees now that what she was taught was really damaging to both the addict and the spouse and was harmful to our relationship, creating unnecessary hardships and struggles.  This all seems to all be born out by the data showing that religion exacerbates hardship and relationship difficulties with this issue and increases risk for divorce.    

110% agree with this one.

At the same time, it's a really hard balance to reach when I'm talking to people who feel betrayed by the porn use itself (not from the lying or other behaviors that can build up around porn addiction/shame). They'll talk about it and will literally describe it as cheating or like cheating and I've seen the emotional turmoil of cheating with IRL humans that range from legal concerns, STI checks, and severe relational breakdowns that take months to repair if not years and know it's definitely not. I know their beliefs are fueling their emotional distress but I also know that immediately dismissing it would be incredibly invalidating. Honestly, I still don't have a solid way to address that in therapy. Usually takes a few sessions before I'm even willing to broach it. 

 

With luv,

BD

[california boy]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:51 PM, why me said:

The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn movie being made in real time. It can be quite boring. One sees all the imperfections of the actors or 'talent' as they are called in the industry. And as humans are not perfect, the scene being shot is much different than the finished product. And for the actors it is just a job.

I am really curious why you feel like this is a cure for porn addiction.  Where did you get this idea?

My first job out of college was working for a motion picture company.  One of my jobs was directing the still photographer on the set.  So I have been on a lot of movie sets.  Yet I still have a passionate love for watching movies.  I saw all but one of the Oscar nominated best movies as well as all of the shorts and most of the animation nominees.  Being on set, and seeing how tedious and non glamorous making a movies is, never made me hate watching movies.  Quite the opposite.  I see the art and beauty of a carefully crafted movie when others just see a story.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

This is an interesting comment, thank you for sharing.  I struggle with understanding the proper sense of "proportion" that ought to be attached to viewing pornography.  The "proportion" in this case seems to be quite an "eye of the beholder" thing.  Some people think that looking at porn is no big deal. 

A faithful Latter-day Saint man may rationalize his behavior that way, but what about his wife?  Can it be easily said that a woman who feels a profound sense of betrayal arising from her husband's addiction to pornography is "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

I have an acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, but with a lot of effort and help he overcame it.  He even co-wrote a book about his experience with his wife.  Years later, however, his wife filed for divorce and took every opportunity to point out his addiction during the proceedings.  Was she being opportunistic?  Or, putting aside the religious argument (about forgiveness), was she justified in harboring resentments about it?

I have another acquaintance who had a long-term pornography addiction, and was not able to fully overcome it.  His wife hung on for quite a while, but they eventually divorced.  Was she justified in that?  Or was she "blow{ing} it way out of proportion"?

Church teaching in this area has historically been toxic and supported this view. It has thankfully shifted away from the idea that porn consumption is an attack on the spouse and their relationship.

This was a philosophy we copied from other churches. We should really stop doing this. Homosexuality being the result of sin or bad parenting, porn use being about the spouse not being enough, the curse of Cain being a thing……..we really should stop listening to them. It doesn’t seem to go that well.