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The Problem w LDSMen


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3 minutes ago, Rain said:

@Dario_M I am ok if you didn't like my post,  but honestly, even a native English speaker would have had a hard time reading my post and giving any thought to it in the time you downvoted it.  I barely had time to post it before you downvoted.  Like I said, I am ok with the downvote, but if you do it so quickly then it makes me feel you really don't want to understand what I feel and that will help me determine my future talking with you.

Excuse me! I have read it all. And i understood it all. I'm not argee with it. 

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6 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Excuse me! I have read it all. And i understood it all. I'm not argee with it. 

So what did you disagree with?  I made several points there.  Which one did you disagree with and why?

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5 minutes ago, Rain said:

So what did you disagree with?  I made several points there.  Which one did you disagree with and why?

Everything. And i don't need to explain myself to you i find. Right? My knowlege whas just such enough that i understood what you where talking about. But i didn't liked it. I hope that..... you....can forgive me. 😘

Edited by Dario_M
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3 hours ago, pogi said:

I guess the INFP (Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving) men  just don't make the cut with their strong aversion to conflict.  Many others would prefer a book with a cup of tea over real adventure.  What should we do with them? 

Poor P. Allen Smith is doomed:

P. Allen Smith's Roses & Rose Garden - Flower Magazine

Horticulture is not just  a female sport. Adventure can be found in many places. 

Interesting enough I am introverted especially at church. But when I sail into a foreign Harbor I can make friends with the first people I meet. Why is that?

Why did the show Survivor become a hit?

Edited by rodheadlee
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8 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Horticulture is not just  a female sport. Adventure can be found in many places. 

Interesting enough I am introverted especially at church. But when I sail into a foreign Harbor I can make friends with the first people I meet. Why is that?

Maybe you are one of those introverted extroverts. 😊

https://www.diaryofanintrovertng.com/blog/introverted-extrovert

Edited by bluebell
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24 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Everything. And i don't need to explain myself to you i find. Right? My knowlege whas just such enough that i understood what you where talking about. But i didn't liked it. I hope that..... you....can forgive me. 😘

Nope, you don't need to explain yourself. Honestly, this means to me that you don't care if we understood each other or not. If that's how you feel I'm fine with it.  

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20 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

... Interesting enough I am introverted especially at church. But when I sail into a foreign Harbor I can make friends with the first people I meet. Why is that? ...

'Cause you're both/all Sailors, Dude! :DB:)   (I'm afraid I'm neither talented nor intrepid enough ever to find myself sailing into the same harbor you have any time soon (perhaps I'll take it up in the next life?).  However, you can sit with me at Church ... any time!)

:friends: 

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4 hours ago, pogi said:

I guess the INFP (Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving) men  just don't make the cut with their strong aversion to conflict.  Many others would prefer a book with a cup of tea over real adventure.  What should we do with them? 

Poor P. Allen Smith is doomed:

P. Allen Smith's Roses & Rose Garden - Flower Magazine

In these novels that I read a very macho leader of a nation waits in his hothouse for hours waiting for a flower to bloom. It only blooms for one day every 3 years. So he waits in there for it to bloom so he can collect pollen and create a hybrid species. To me that is Adventure.

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33 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

In these novels that I read a very macho leader of a nation waits in his hothouse for hours waiting for a flower to bloom. It only blooms for one day every 3 years. So he waits in there for it to bloom so he can collect pollen and create a hybrid species. To me that is Adventure.

That great and all, but what does it have to do with masculinity?  If anything of interest, including horticulture, can be viewed as an 'adventure" and "sport (not sure how get there)" why is this being boxed in as a "masculine" trait as opposed to a feminine trait?  Makes no sense.   By the way, I have read John Eldridge's book and this is not what he is talking about.  He is talking about rough, risk taking adventure, competition, sport, and battle.  Like a grown up version of boy-scouts survival courses.  He thinks that all men need it to be happy. I disagree.  He is concerned about the feminization of men today.  The problem then becomes an issue of what is masculine and what is feminine.  Once you draw those lines, then exclusion and judgment begins with in-crowds at church and out-crowds.  Is that really where we want to go in the church?  Sure we can liven up Elder's quorum, but do we really want to create a measuring stick of what a real man is and what a real man needs?

I noticed that you downvoted my post about belonging and how defining masculinity could inhibit that sense of belonging for many.  What is your problem with that?

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't know. Self-described "alpha males" like Nick Adams are an endless source of hilarity. 

No true alpha male has to be self-described. That fact will be evident.

Edited by rodheadlee
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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if a lot of this just depends on region?

I have grown up around LDS men and they are/were all, for the most part, very rugged, physically capable, and outdoorsy. But I also grew up in northern Wyoming and in Montana, surrounded by mountains, ranch, land, and farmland. So the majority of men I know hunt and fish and camp and ride dirt bikes, and fix old tractors and build sheds, and go shooting for fun, etc.  I went to school with many guys who helped calve before coming to school at 8 in the morning (sometimes showing up with iffy fluids on their boots).  This was as true for the member boys as the nonmember ones  

None of this makes them more emotionally, or mentally stable or better than men who were raised in more white-collar, artistic environments. They do match typical ideas of masculinity though. Especially the kind that the men in the video seem to be promoting.

But none of that really has to do with their membership in the church though. They are who they are because of the culture that they’ve been raised in not because of the environment of their Elder’s Quorum. 

Yeah the demographics matter. My last Elder quorums Ward all the guys wore $2,000 suits, just guessing, I'm pretty scruffy. I'm doing good to find a shirt and tie with no stains on them. It came about like that because the marina I lived in was in a Tony section of town. We pretty much had nothing in common.

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9 minutes ago, pogi said:

That great and all, but what does it have to do with masculinity?  If anything of interest, including horticulture, can be viewed as an 'adventure" and "sport (not sure how get there)" why is this being boxed in as a "masculine" trait as opposed to a feminine trait?  Makes no sense.   By the way, I have read John Eldridge's book and this is not what he is talking about.  He is talking about rough, risk taking adventure, competition, sport, and battle.  Like a grown up version of boy-scouts survival courses.  He thinks that all men need it to be happy. I disagree.  He is concerned about the feminization of men today.  The problem then becomes an issue of what is masculine and what is feminine.  Once you draw those lines, then exclusion and judgment begins with in-crowds at church and out-crowds.  Is that really where we want to go in the church?  Sure we can liven up Elder's quorum, but do we really want to create a measuring stick of what a real man is and what a real man needs?

I noticed that you downvoted my post about belonging and how defining masculinity could inhibit that sense of belonging for many.  What is your problem with that?

The definition needs to be inclusive not exclusive.

PS I don't know who John Eldridge is.

Edited by rodheadlee
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17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I haven't had time to view the speaker yet. One thing I will say is I do feel lonely in the church whenever I'm there. I would also suggest that you women not womensplain the way you always tell us not to mansplain. Perhaps take a better look at what he is saying.

 

I agree that we need to make sure we don't womansplain.  Mansplaining is often so common for us that we sometimes miss when it is going the other way.  

------

I know I hoped for so long for activities or friends for my husband.  I never expected to live this long and didn't  want him lost when the time came.  It took me decades to realize what was happening - he is a huge introvert and would have hated to have all the activities I wanted for him, but I very much get some men would love it.  He sometimes comes home from church meetings and complains the leaders are extroverts! lol

Anyway, he now has a coworker that he clicks with and he sometimes sheepishly comes home and says he was "talking with Brian" again.  And you know, as long as we didn't have plans I'm thrilled he has a friend to talk with!

Edited by Rain
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1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah the demographics matter. My last Elder quorums Ward all the guys wore $2,000 suits, just guessing, I'm pretty scruffy. I'm doing good to find a shirt and tie with no stains on them. It came about like that because the marina I lived in was in a Tony section of town. We pretty much had nothing in common.

Yes! It really can make a difference.

My parents still live in the same ward where I grew up, and most of the leader ship in that stake the men have beards. Bishops, elders, quorum presidents, etc..

Here in Utah, especially in the valley,, I don’t know that any stake president would let a bishop have a beard. Our old state presidency wouldn’t let anyone in leader ship have one, and when my husband was called to be in a bishopric, no one could believe that they allowed him to serve and didn’t make him shave.

But the reason that they didn’t make him shave was because the Bishop specifically said “I want him as my counselor and I don’t want him to have to shave.”

It’s important that we don’t just give lip service to the idea that we’re all unique and can be ourselves in this church. We like to advertise all of our members that are bearded, or have tattoos, or otherwise stand out from the latter-day Saint norm, but in church our culture is ‘conform conform conform’ a lot of the time.

Edited by bluebell
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To me, the video felt too much like a long drawn out sales pitch (I listened to ~20 minutes of it). It also left me wondering more specifically what masculine qualities even are? I think there are such qualities though I'm not sure how I would describe them. Are there those on this forum who believe there is no such thing as masculine qualities?

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3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Except when wild canines are put into cages. I guess that’s something to emulate. 

You are not an alpha male until you are incarcerated? Makes some sense. Possibly also if you come from an abusive and controlling environment. That would actually make those incredibly screwed up cult of abuse Spartans more likely to be alpha males

Edited by The Nehor
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38 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

To me, the video felt too much like a long drawn out sales pitch (I listened to ~20 minutes of it). It also left me wondering more specifically what masculine qualities even are? I think there are such qualities though I'm not sure how I would describe them. Are there those on this forum who believe there is no such thing as masculine qualities?

In theory I believe there are masculine qualities, but when I try to come up with a good list it is left blank.  I can definitely tell you what I love in my husband - I can't believe of how much of the physical load he has taken for me the last 3 weeks, but a lot of that has to do with the state our bodies are in more than what is masculine.

Edited by Rain
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1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

there is no such thing as masculine qualities?

Depends on what you mean by that.

If you mean a quality that is only appropriate in a male, while I am open to the possibility there are a few of those, it would really depend on what you are including (the ability to write in snow while peeing is the only masculine only trait I can think of at the moment and even that is debatable).  I need something concrete in order to explore the possibility.  Did you have a trait in mind we could discuss?

Logic was presented as a masculine trait in my youth.  I was very good at logic and math.  The fact that I was unusual was hammered into me by teachers and fellow students.  It contributed greatly to me feeling like an outsider, not fitting in with the girls because I was masculine (just brain wise, physically I was first quite petite and then puberty hit and the curves came in abundance) and not fitting in with the boys because I was a girl.  I am also aware of and have been for a long time due to my psych classes that there are general differences between male and female brains and when it comes to medical differences, doctors being unaware of the differences has contributed greatly to ramping up the severity of my issues through misdiagnosis and inappropriate treatments (or the lack of them).  So inherent vs cultural as well as false male-female differences in our society is an important subject for me.

If masculine is just used as another category label for the more objective/rational side vs emotional/intuitive, then of course there are masculine traits.  But if by masculine one means it is normal in a male and unusual in a female, there are substantially fewer of those.  But there are differences between biological males and females that it is essential we pay attention to in medical research and treatment.  Men were having back surgery after useless surgery because they weren’t diagnosed with fibromyalgia (it was thought to occur in a ratio of 9 females to 1 male, where now that there is greater recognition of how fibro presents in males it is closer to a 2 to 1 ratio).  Heart attacks in females were going undetected because of the same issues, familiarity with how males present but not females.  Females and males experience different kinds of pain in different ways.  Now they can actually view brain activity and see how pain centers (something shared between males and females) light up, they are better at identifying differences.

I am not sure how useful the term “masculine” is for shared traits though as it is too often taken to imply it is a good trait for a male to have and inappropriate for a female, the reverse being true for feminine.

Edited by Calm
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39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Or alpha males don’t exist at all.

I guess it's all in the definition.

Some examples would be Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Ernest Shackleton. I'm sure many arguments could be held over this. Er um, discussions

Edited by rodheadlee
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10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I guess it's all in the definition.

Some examples would be Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Ernest Shackleton. I'm sure many arguments could be held over this. Er um, discussions

It’s an interesting topic. Like, what is the difference between Ben Franklin and Marie Curie that makes him an alpha male but her not?

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12 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I guess it's all in the definition.

Some examples would be Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Ernest Shackleton. I'm sure many arguments could be held over this. Er um, discussions

But there isn’t a definition. Just people who supposedly fit the description.

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21 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Is there a meaning where you would agree there are such qualities?

I edited my post.  Maybe that helps, but until you define what you mean by masculine, how can I tell you if I think such exist or don’t?

It is like asking me if I like the color red.  Unless I know what color you are thinking about when you say “red”, the answer is yes and no.  I love some colors that have the label red and others I don’t, a few I even hate.

So at the moment…do I agree there are masculine qualities?   Yes and no.

Edited by Calm
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