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Petition started to remove Elder Holland as the commencement speaker


JAHS

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6 hours ago, webbles said:

I tracked down a website that tracks "commencement disinvitations".  They don't include SUU from this year in it so it obviously isn't complete but it does look like it is pretty decent - https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/campus-disinvitation-database.  It also tracks any type of disinvitation (such as speaker/teacher/etc).

Using that database, here's the number of disinvitations (either successful or unsuccessful) each year since 2000:

Interestingly, the number of disinvites went up until around 2014 and then started to go back down.  The site author wrote an opinion piece back in 2018 about this - https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/06/29/universities-politically-controversial-commencement-speakers-student-protest-column/734068002/  He thinks that the reason why the number of disinvites has gone back down isn't because we are becoming more accepting of the invitations but because the universities are growing "increasingly leery of inviting speakers who might offend the most vocal part of their student body or their faculty."

Considering there are over 5,000 universities in the US, it is still a very small percentage.  I personally think it is great that universities are paying more attention to who they choose as their commencement speakers.  This is college graduation where all students are expected to participate, not some group sponsoring a lecture series that is more optional to attend.  

I also don't think that a commencement event is the proper place to try and spin some kind of "we love everyone.  We are all children of God.  Just not everyone is equal." kind of message when actions show otherwise.  But since Elder Holland has no intention of not speaking, I have a feeling this is what he will try and spin his message.  

For many in the LGBT community, that kind of message feels totally hollow and insincere given the actual actions the Church has taken and continues to take among students at BYU and general Church policies.  There is no room for gay companionship married or not within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  That has been made perfectly clear.

I get that faithful members are perfectly ok with this kind of stance.  Hopefully faithful members can also see why that would not be an acceptable stance for those that are gay who are still members of the student body and really want nothing to do with the Church, including hearing Church leaders speak at their commencement.

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On 3/24/2023 at 1:07 PM, california boy said:

To many, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most anti LGBT religion in America and has done thing and said things that they won't forget.

😆😆😆😆

Who besides deluded exmos would say such a thing? 

Off the top of my head...Westboro Baptists, all the churches that voted against the latest LGBTQ rights/religious freedom bill, etc. etc.

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6 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

😆😆😆😆

Who besides deluded exmos would say such a thing? 

Off the top of my head...Westboro Baptists, all the churches that voted against the latest LGBTQ rights/religious freedom bill, etc. etc.

Are you really that clueless about how the LGBT community views the Church in general?

From Wikipedia

 

Among the public[edit]

The controversial policies for LGBT persons has made an impression on the general public. A 2003 nationwide Pew Research Center survey of over 1,000 LGBT Americans found that 83% of them said the LDS Church was "generally unfriendly towards lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people" surpassed only by "the Muslim religion" at 84%.[188] Additionally, in May 2008 a Georgia Tech gay-rights manual referred to the LDS Church as "anti-gay." After two students sued the school for discrimination, a judge ordered that the material be removed.[194]

Protests[edit]

The policies and treatment of LGBTQ individuals have prompted several protests and mass resignations including the following:

  • November 2, 2008 – Hundreds of people gathered at the Salt Lake City library in a protest of Prop 8 organized by LDS mothers of gay children.[200][201][202]
  • November 6, 2008 – In Los Angeles over two thousand people protested at the LDS temple over the LDS Church's heavy involvement in the recent passing of California's Prop 8 banning same-sex marriage.[203]
  • November 7, 2008 – Three days after Prop 8 passed nearly five thousand protesters gathered at the Salt Lake Temple.[204]That evening a candlelight vigil by about 600 mothers of LGBT children was also held at the Salt Lake Temple.[202][201][200]
  • October 7, 2010 – Thousands of individuals surrounded Temple Square in protest of Boyd K. Packer's "Cleansing the Inner Vessel" conference address in which he characterized same-sex physical attractions as impure and unnatural tendencies that could be overcome.[13]
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6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Are you really that clueless about how the LGBT community views the Church in general?

From Wikipedia

 

Among the public[edit]

The controversial policies for LGBT persons has made an impression on the general public. A 2003 nationwide Pew Research Center survey of over 1,000 LGBT Americans found that 83% of them said the LDS Church was "generally unfriendly towards lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people" surpassed only by "the Muslim religion" at 84%.[188] Additionally, in May 2008 a Georgia Tech gay-rights manual referred to the LDS Church as "anti-gay." After two students sued the school for discrimination, a judge ordered that the material be removed.[194]

Protests[edit]

The policies and treatment of LGBTQ individuals have prompted several protests and mass resignations including the following:

  • November 2, 2008 – Hundreds of people gathered at the Salt Lake City library in a protest of Prop 8 organized by LDS mothers of gay children.[200][201][202]
  • November 6, 2008 – In Los Angeles over two thousand people protested at the LDS temple over the LDS Church's heavy involvement in the recent passing of California's Prop 8 banning same-sex marriage.[203]
  • November 7, 2008 – Three days after Prop 8 passed nearly five thousand protesters gathered at the Salt Lake Temple.[204]That evening a candlelight vigil by about 600 mothers of LGBT children was also held at the Salt Lake Temple.[202][201][200]
  • October 7, 2010 – Thousands of individuals surrounded Temple Square in protest of Boyd K. Packer's "Cleansing the Inner Vessel" conference address in which he characterized same-sex physical attractions as impure and unnatural tendencies that could be overcome.[13]

 

That's worse than this?

godhatessigns.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

 

That's worse than this?

godhatessigns.jpg

 

27 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

 

That's worse than this?

godhatessigns.jpg

Westboro Baptists is one single congregation.  It is not a religion.  

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40 minutes ago, california boy said:

Are you really that clueless about how the LGBT community views the Church in general?

I don't think anyone is clueless about the Church's opinion on this this unless they have been living under a rock. The church has at least agreed that people have the legal right to marry who they want. 
The Church will always defend what it believes and will not allow outside influence to change core doctrines unless God reveals it to His prophets. This is what Elder Holland is talking about.

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49 minutes ago, california boy said:

Westboro Baptists is one single congregation.  It is not a religion.  

There are a lot of religions that don't permit same sex relationships. It's easier to pick on small denominations like the LDS.

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58 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

There are a lot of religions that don't permit same sex relationships. It's easier to pick on small denominations like the LDS.

Not that many "small" religions have a multi-billion dollar stash to fund anti-same-sex-marriage initiatives like Prop. 8. The Church has somewhat changed course on that issue, but has a long way to go before the LBGTQ+ community will forget that effort.

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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Not that many "small" religions have a multi-billion dollar stash to fund anti-same-sex-marriage initiatives like Prop. 8. The Church has somewhat changed course on that issue, but has a long way to go before the LBGTQ+ community will forget that effort.

All that's exaggerated. There are limits to what churches can spend on political activities, and the church never exceeds that limit. It's just a pretext for bullying smaller groups.

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9 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

There are a lot of religions that don't permit same sex relationships. It's easier to pick on small denominations like the LDS.

Really?  You think the LDS are just getting picked on for no reason at all?

Can you name another religion that spent $40 million and provided 70% of the workforce to work to take away gay couples civil rights in California.  

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14 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

All that's exaggerated. There are limits to what churches can spend on political activities, and the church never exceeds that limit. It's just a pretext for bullying smaller groups.

Now the church is being bullied by *checks notes* a very small percentage of the population in a state where the church members outnumber said group several times over? And bullying the church because it is small? In Utah? Really? Who is the big fish religion in Utah the lgbt community is afraid to pick on?

This has ‘Goliath desperately trying to be David‘ energy.

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11 hours ago, california boy said:

Can you name another religion that spent $40 million and provided 70% of the workforce to work to take away gay couples civil rights in California.  

More like $190,000.

https://mormonr.org/qnas/t2msB/the_church_and_prop_8?gclid=Cj0KCQjw8qmhBhClARIsANAtbofhO2_wcJ-_XSygd7d7yNR6GSdqf54Mexia_E7FnS-ZiPpKabs_oX0aAn61EALw_wcB

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2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

The Church itself donated $190,000.  According to Protect Marriage, who ran the yes on Prop 8 estimates another $20 million came directly from members.  So over half of the money going towards Prop 8, which took away the civil rights of gay couples came from Mormons.

Quote

In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.

The Yes on 8 used that money for advertising that lied about the consequences and to instill fear into the general population if Prop 8 passed

Quote

 

To counter that, advertisements for the “Yes” campaign also used hypothetical consequences of same-sex marriage, painting the specter of churches’ losing tax exempt status or people “sued for personal beliefs” or objections to same-sex marriage, claims that were made with little explanation.

Another of the advertisements used video of an elementary school field trip to a teacher’s same-sex wedding in San Francisco to reinforce the idea that same-sex marriage would be taught to young children.

 

Church members also provided the majority of the manpower to pass Prop 8

Quote

Jeff Flint, another strategist with Protect Marriage, estimated that Mormons made up 80 percent to 90 percent of the early volunteers who walked door-to-door in election precincts.

I am not going to play some kind of game with you about the role the Church played in Prop8 It is very well documented.  And believe me, the Church's significant involvement in getting Prop 8 passed is well known, documented and not denied by the Church.  If you really are so clueless on this subject, I suggest you watch the movie Prop 8, The Mormon Proposition.  While some of what is in that movie may be up for debate, it does give an overall good idea into the Church's involvement in getting Prop 8 passed.

I do acknowledge that I originally said the Church contributed $40 million to Prop 8 which was actually the total amount spent on advertising.  What is accurate is that the Church and it's members contributed over $20 million which was over half of the total money raised for Prop 8.

Pretending that the LGBT community dislikes the Mormon Church more than any other Christian religion just because it doesn't believe in gay marriage is delusional. The Church's role in Prop 8 and the many extreme policies against gay members that the Church has exerted such as not baptizing underaged children of gay couples or not allowing gays to kiss, date, hug hold hands at BYU among other acts against the LGBT community all have fed into that conclusion.  There are plenty of reason why some students do not want an apostle from the  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and specifically Elder Holland to speak at their commencement.  This all didn't come out of thin air. And it is NOT just because the Church is an easy target. The Church has done plenty to earn that reputation all by itself by its actions and policies.

 

 

 

Edited by california boy
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Equality Utah supports allowing Elder Holland to speak.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/03/30/latter-day-saint-apostle-jeffrey-r/

Quote

Equality Utah, a LGBTQ civil rights organization, issued a statement last week saying SUU should let Holland speak, calling for “freedom of expression” and despite “vehemently” disagreeing with his past comments.

 

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On 4/3/2023 at 8:37 AM, california boy said:

The Church itself donated $190,000.  According to Protect Marriage, who ran the yes on Prop 8 estimates another $20 million came directly from members.  So over half of the money going towards Prop 8, which took away the civil rights of gay couples came from Mormons.

The Yes on 8 used that money for advertising that lied about the consequences and to instill fear into the general population if Prop 8 passed

Church members also provided the majority of the manpower to pass Prop 8

 

If money decides votes than Prop 8 should have not passed as more money was spent to defeat Prop 8 than those who supported it.  In the end, the Church did not pass Prop 8.   The voters of California, the vast majority who were not LDS voted for Prop 8.   This should come as no surprise as the voters in California in 2000 passed Prop 22 in 2000 which banned same sex marriage.  Did the Church do much to pass Prop 22 in 2000?    Prop 8 simply was a rerun of what happened earlier.  You can blame the Church all you want on Prop 8 but the reality is both Prop 22 and Prop 8 were passed by the voters of California.   I would contend the church should not have bothered with Prop 8.  It was going to pass anyway as SSM at that time was being voted down in other states as well and the same voters who voted for 22 were going to vote for Prop 8.  Not much had changed in California at that time.

Edited by carbon dioxide
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10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If money decides votes than Prop 8 should have not passed as more money was spent to defeat Prop 8 than those who supported it.  In the end, the Church did not pass Prop 8.   The voters of California, the vast majority who were not LDS voted for Prop 8.   This should come as no surprise as the voters in California in 2000 passed Prop 22 in 2000 which banned same sex marriage.  Did the Church do much to pass Prop 22 in 2000?    Prop 8 simply was a rerun of what happened earlier.  You can blame the Church all you want on Prop 8 but the reality is both Prop 22 and Prop 8 were passed by the voters of California.   I would contend the church should not have bothered with Prop 8.  It was going to pass anyway as SSM at that time was being voted down in other states as well and the same voters who voted for 22 were going to vote for Prop 8.  Not much had changed in California at that time.

I think you missed the whole point of why the Church is viewed as the most unfriendly Christian church against the LGBT community in the country.  It is not about Prop 8 passing. It is about the role the Church actively played in getting that proposition to pass.  When a Church goes to that extent to work towards taking away the civil rights of gay couples, it is very hard to view that Church as being an organization that likes gay couples.  Prop 8 is also not the ONLY thing the Church has done against the LGBT community.  Pretending that the Church is being picked on and hasn't done anything to earn that reputation is delusional.

You can argue that money doesn't win elections if you want.  But the fact of the matter is, money and fund raising is fundamental to every political race.  While money does not always determine an outcome, it is still a very vital part of a winning campaign.

 

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3 hours ago, california boy said:

When a Church goes to that extent to work towards taking away the civil rights of gay couples,...

At that time was it a given that gay couples' civil rights were being taken away or had the law not yet firmly established that indeed it was a civjl rights issue to begin with?

Edited by Vanguard
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13 hours ago, Vanguard said:

At that time was it a given that gay couples' civil rights were being taken away or had the law not yet firmly established that indeed it was a civjl rights issue to begin with?

The California State Supreme Court had already ruled that gay marriage was a civil right and gay marriage was already legal in the state of California.  Prop 8 took that civil right away from gay couples until it was reaffirmed by the United States Supreme Court as a civil right for all Americans.

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Quote

Now, with the 82-year-old Holland withdrawing because of the effects of COVID-19, and recent kidney dialysis, the Cedar City school has chosen three student speakers to replace him.

The speakers are: Aspen English, a communication and English double major, and Humanities and Social Sciences valedictorian; Kalli Ostermiller, a political science major; and Sarah J. Penner, a psychology major with a double minor in German and theatre arts.

Every year, one graduating senior speaks at SUU’s commencement ceremony. Penner, who is originally from Layton, was the event’s original student speaker, but English and Ostermiller were the other top finalists selected by the school’s student speaker selection committee.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2023/04/09/lds-apostle-jeffrey-holland-wont/


It'll be interesting to see how it goes with three student speakers. Could easily set the tone for future graduation ceremonies.

Edited by JustAnAustralian
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2 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:


It'll be interesting to see how it goes with three student speakers. Could easily set the tone for future graduation ceremonies.

I think i'd rather hear from someone other than three student speakers--someone with some actual life experience and the wisdom that comes with age.  But I guess when you don't have much time for a new plan that three student speakers are better than nothing.  Maybe.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think i'd rather hear from someone other than three student speakers--someone with some actual life experience and the wisdom that comes with age.  But I guess when you don't have much time for a new plan that three student speakers are better than nothing.  Maybe.

It's  a safe choice. What if they replace him with someone that the same group or some other group doesn't approve of? Those students probably already have talks written for the occasion.

Edited by JAHS
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10 hours ago, JAHS said:

It's  a safe choice. What if they replace him with someone that the same group or some other group doesn't approve of? Those students probably already have talks written for the occasion.

It is a safe choice, and I think the students are shooting themselves in the foot with all of the protests over graduation speakers if this is the result.

They’ve lost an opportunity to learn from a different perspective at the very least. And really gained nothing because now they’re going to hear from people who don’t know any more than they do.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It is a safe choice, and I think the students are shooting themselves in the foot with all of the protests over graduation speakers if this is the result.

They’ve lost an opportunity to learn from a different perspective at the very least. And really gained nothing because now they’re going to hear from people who don’t know any more than they do.

I think there is a whole lot of wisdom from their fellow student body actually.

Edited by Tacenda
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