Lesson 13 - The Sabbath and the Sacrament

[marineland]

I'm into lesson 13 of the manual (Religion 275) and had some questions.

Page 60 - In this lesson, students will learn that the Book of Mormon teaches that the members
of Christ's Church are to gather together on the Sabbath day and enjoy the sacred privilege of 
partaking of the sacrament. 

The Book of Mormon mentions 'sabbath day' a few times but it seems to always be in the context of
Saturday, the Jewish sabbath - Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 13:16-19; 18:23).

Is there any evidence this changed to Sunday or was a 'Sunday' when Jesus is said to have visited 
the Nephites?

Also, I couldn't find any mention that the Book of Mormon teaches members to gather together only 
on the Sabbath day to partake of the sacrament. There is only one stipulation for taking the 
sacrament and that is of being worthy (Mormon 9:29).

Page 62 - Remind students that the resurrected Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament when He 
visited the Nephites in Bountiful. 

Remind students that Moroni recorded the words that the followers of Jesus Christ used when 
blessing the sacrament. Consider inviting students to scan the sacrament prayers in Moroni 4:3 
and 5:2 and underline phrases that relate to the principle written on the board.

Remind students that when Jesus visited the Nephites on the day after He instituted the sacrament, 
He again administered the ordinance to them. Invite a few students to taking turns reading aloud 
from 3 Nephi 20:3–9.

There is no indication on what 2 days the Lord is said to have appeared to the Nephites for the
sacrament but I found the events in 3 Nephi chapters 18-20.

The administration of the sacrament initially occurs in 3 Nephi 18:3-5,8-9.  That event shows a
significant contrast with the biblical model.  In the Nephite example, the sacrament was more like 
a meal. They ate until they were filled and they drank until they were filled.  This does not 
resemble a commemorative act.  The second administration of the sacrament occurs in 3 Nephi 20.
A similar thing occurs again (the disciples first, then the multitude).

Unlike the Mormon account, the New Testament disciples did not all finish first by partaking of 
the bread until they were filled before the rest of the crowd ate until they were filled.  Neither 
did all the disciples finish first by drinking until they were full before distributing to the 
crowd until they drank too until they were filled.

Thank you for your comments.

[Dario_M]

So what is your suggestion now? That we better not use the sacrament anymore on sunday because some scriptures are proving a differend believe. 

Well i (ME) believe that the sacrament is a really important and holy part of the church service so. When i take it it makes me clean again. If drink the water it gives me a little bapizing again. It helps me beter to repent of my sins that i have committed in that whole week that have finaly past.

So...please just let the sarcament be how it always used to be if you don't mind. And don't change any of it. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dario_M

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 13 of the manual (Religion 275) and had some questions.

Page 60 - In this lesson, students will learn that the Book of Mormon teaches that the members
of Christ's Church are to gather together on the Sabbath day and enjoy the sacred privilege of 
partaking of the sacrament. 

The Book of Mormon mentions 'sabbath day' a few times but it seems to always be in the context of
Saturday, the Jewish sabbath - Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 13:16-19; 18:23).

Is there any evidence this changed to Sunday or was a 'Sunday' when Jesus is said to have visited 
the Nephites?

Also, I couldn't find any mention that the Book of Mormon teaches members to gather together only 
on the Sabbath day to partake of the sacrament. There is only one stipulation for taking the 
sacrament and that is of being worthy (Mormon 9:29).

Page 62 - Remind students that the resurrected Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament when He 
visited the Nephites in Bountiful. 

Remind students that Moroni recorded the words that the followers of Jesus Christ used when 
blessing the sacrament. Consider inviting students to scan the sacrament prayers in Moroni 4:3 
and 5:2 and underline phrases that relate to the principle written on the board.

Remind students that when Jesus visited the Nephites on the day after He instituted the sacrament, 
He again administered the ordinance to them. Invite a few students to taking turns reading aloud 
from 3 Nephi 20:3–9.

There is no indication on what 2 days the Lord is said to have appeared to the Nephites for the
sacrament but I found the events in 3 Nephi chapters 18-20.

The administration of the sacrament initially occurs in 3 Nephi 18:3-5,8-9.  That event shows a
significant contrast with the biblical model.  In the Nephite example, the sacrament was more like 
a meal. They ate until they were filled and they drank until they were filled.  This does not 
resemble a commemorative act.  The second administration of the sacrament occurs in 3 Nephi 20.
A similar thing occurs again (the disciples first, then the multitude).

Unlike the Mormon account, the New Testament disciples did not all finish first by partaking of 
the bread until they were filled before the rest of the crowd ate until they were filled.  Neither 
did all the disciples finish first by drinking until they were full before distributing to the 
crowd until they drank too until they were filled.

Thank you for your comments.

The Eucharist ordinance and an Agape meal was never a Sabbath Day event when it was implemented, it was always a Lord's Day event, and since Gentiles were forbidden to observe the Sabbath, Sunday served as the "First [Sabbath]" of the Week for Gentiles, and later Jewish Christians also as they were gradually all forced out of the synagogues. We also follow the concept of the superseding Higher Law of Christ in which there is no regard for a specific holy day, "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." (Romans 14:6). The D&C 20:75 instructed us to do the sacrament "often", so we do it every week; in the US on a Sunday, in Israel on a Saturday, and in Jordan on a Monday for convenience.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 13 of the manual (Religion 275) and had some questions.

Page 60 - In this lesson, students will learn that the Book of Mormon teaches that the members
of Christ's Church are to gather together on the Sabbath day and enjoy the sacred privilege of 
partaking of the sacrament. 

The Book of Mormon mentions 'sabbath day' a few times but it seems to always be in the context of
Saturday, the Jewish sabbath - Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 13:16-19; 18:23).

Is there any evidence this changed to Sunday or was a 'Sunday' when Jesus is said to have visited 
the Nephites?

Also, I couldn't find any mention that the Book of Mormon teaches members to gather together only 
on the Sabbath day to partake of the sacrament. There is only one stipulation for taking the 
sacrament and that is of being worthy (Mormon 9:29).

Page 62 - Remind students that the resurrected Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament when He 
visited the Nephites in Bountiful. 

Remind students that Moroni recorded the words that the followers of Jesus Christ used when 
blessing the sacrament. Consider inviting students to scan the sacrament prayers in Moroni 4:3 
and 5:2 and underline phrases that relate to the principle written on the board.

Remind students that when Jesus visited the Nephites on the day after He instituted the sacrament, 
He again administered the ordinance to them. Invite a few students to taking turns reading aloud 
from 3 Nephi 20:3–9.

There is no indication on what 2 days the Lord is said to have appeared to the Nephites for the
sacrament but I found the events in 3 Nephi chapters 18-20.

The administration of the sacrament initially occurs in 3 Nephi 18:3-5,8-9.  That event shows a
significant contrast with the biblical model.  In the Nephite example, the sacrament was more like 
a meal. They ate until they were filled and they drank until they were filled.  This does not 
resemble a commemorative act.  The second administration of the sacrament occurs in 3 Nephi 20.
A similar thing occurs again (the disciples first, then the multitude).

Unlike the Mormon account, the New Testament disciples did not all finish first by partaking of 
the bread until they were filled before the rest of the crowd ate until they were filled.  Neither 
did all the disciples finish first by drinking until they were full before distributing to the 
crowd until they drank too until they were filled.

Thank you for your comments.

I see only one question mark; here is my reply: The Sabbath was made for man, not vice-versa. We do not know the name of the weekday of the Nephite Sabbath. As to additional observations: 1) Some churches, notably Catholic, practice their version of the sacrament multiple times a day, daily. 2) The so-called Biblical model allows the sacrament to entail or be part of a larger feast (1 Corinthians 11*), as was the Last Supper (the Passover Feast at the time).

* Communal Banqueting Practice in Early Christ Group in Corinth | Bible Interp (arizona.edu)

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 13 of the manual (Religion 275) and had some questions.

Page 60 - In this lesson, students will learn that the Book of Mormon teaches that the members
of Christ's Church are to gather together on the Sabbath day and enjoy the sacred privilege of 
partaking of the sacrament. 

The Book of Mormon mentions 'sabbath day' a few times but it seems to always be in the context of
Saturday, the Jewish sabbath - Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 13:16-19; 18:23).

Is there any evidence this changed to Sunday or was a 'Sunday' when Jesus is said to have visited 
the Nephites?

Also, I couldn't find any mention that the Book of Mormon teaches members to gather together only 
on the Sabbath day to partake of the sacrament. There is only one stipulation for taking the 
sacrament and that is of being worthy (Mormon 9:29).

Page 62 - Remind students that the resurrected Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament when He 
visited the Nephites in Bountiful. 

Remind students that Moroni recorded the words that the followers of Jesus Christ used when 
blessing the sacrament. Consider inviting students to scan the sacrament prayers in Moroni 4:3 
and 5:2 and underline phrases that relate to the principle written on the board.

Remind students that when Jesus visited the Nephites on the day after He instituted the sacrament, 
He again administered the ordinance to them. Invite a few students to taking turns reading aloud 
from 3 Nephi 20:3–9.

There is no indication on what 2 days the Lord is said to have appeared to the Nephites for the
sacrament but I found the events in 3 Nephi chapters 18-20.

The administration of the sacrament initially occurs in 3 Nephi 18:3-5,8-9.  That event shows a
significant contrast with the biblical model.  In the Nephite example, the sacrament was more like 
a meal. They ate until they were filled and they drank until they were filled.  This does not 
resemble a commemorative act.  The second administration of the sacrament occurs in 3 Nephi 20.
A similar thing occurs again (the disciples first, then the multitude).

Unlike the Mormon account, the New Testament disciples did not all finish first by partaking of 
the bread until they were filled before the rest of the crowd ate until they were filled.  Neither 
did all the disciples finish first by drinking until they were full before distributing to the 
crowd until they drank too until they were filled.

Thank you for your comments.

Through a modern revelation from God given to the prophet Joseph Smith on Sunday, August 7, 1831, the Lord revealed to the Latter-Day Saints that the Sabbath Day is to observed on Sunday, the first day of the week, even the day on which the Savior rose from the dead.

9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself ^aunspotted fromthe world, thou shalt go to the house of ^bprayer and offer up thy ^csacraments upon my ^dholy day;

10 For verily this is a ^aday appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;

11 Nevertheless thy ^avows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;

12 But remember that on this, the ^aLord’s day (remember it was Sunday), thou shalt offer thine ^boblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, ^cconfessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

13 And on this day (it was Sunday) thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy ^afasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy ^bjoy may be full. (Doctrine and Covenants 59)

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

The Book of Mormon mentions 'sabbath day' a few times but it seems to always be in the context of
Saturday, the Jewish sabbath - Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 13:16-19; 18:23).

Is there any evidence this changed to Sunday or was a 'Sunday' when Jesus is said to have visited 
the Nephites?

Also, I couldn't find any mention that the Book of Mormon teaches members to gather together only 
on the Sabbath day to partake of the sacrament. There is only one stipulation for taking the 
sacrament and that is of being worthy (Mormon 9:29).

It doesn't matter what day we take the sacrament as long as it is done regularly.  Whether it is Sunday, Saturday, or some other day of the week, it makes no difference.

When the church was organized on April 6, 1830, they partook of the sacrament.  It was a Tuesday.  We typically meet weekly and partake of the sacrament on Sunday now because it works well with our culture (in many parts of the world), but it isn't a requirement of the reason we take the sacrament.  I understand that the General Authorities of the church meet regularly on Thursday to take the sacrament, since they travel and are typically doing conferences on Sundays.  So I don't see there being any problem with whatever day they chose to take the sacrament in the Book of Mormon.

A good resource on this is the Church History Topic:  Sacrament Meetings.

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

The administration of the sacrament initially occurs in 3 Nephi 18:3-5,8-9.  That event shows a
significant contrast with the biblical model.  In the Nephite example, the sacrament was more like 
a meal. They ate until they were filled and they drank until they were filled.  This does not 
resemble a commemorative act.  The second administration of the sacrament occurs in 3 Nephi 20.
A similar thing occurs again (the disciples first, then the multitude).

Unlike the Mormon account, the New Testament disciples did not all finish first by partaking of 
the bread until they were filled before the rest of the crowd ate until they were filled.  Neither 
did all the disciples finish first by drinking until they were full before distributing to the 
crowd until they drank too until they were filled.

There is a significant contrast with the Book of Mormon event in 3 Nephi 18 and anything shown in the Bible because of one important difference:  The resurrected Jesus was there personally and was teaching the disciples how to administer the sacrament.  The same thing is true of the 3 Nephi 20 event.  Both of these are special occasions, where Jesus was there personally and was giving them instructions.  There is simply no event in the Bible that compares to this.  But in the Bible there is a similar pattern, since Jesus gave the sacrament to his disciples first (Matthew 26.26-27) and later the disciples gave it to others (Acts 2:42).

As for being "filled", it wasn't because they were eating a meal.  They were using the word "filled" in the same sense that Jesus explained it in 3 Nephi 20:8:  "And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled."

[Kenngo1969]

I'll note, in what, perhaps, is an illustration of the old adage, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do," that students studying at Brigham Young University's Jerusalem Center celebrate the Sabbath on the same day of the week as their Jewish hosts* do: on Saturday.  And, while I don't know for sure, it wouldn't surprise me if, in areas of the world in which Islam predominates, members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't celebrate the Sabbath on Friday, just as their Muslim hosts do.

I cannot, alas, locate this bit of correspondence now, but a few years ago, I carried on a short correspondence with an erstwhile poster here (whose screen name, unfortunately, I cannot recall) who had converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints  from a faith that worships on Saturday, and who expressed confusion at the thought that he felt the Holy Spirit confirmed to him that worshipping on Saturday is good, whereas, now, he felt the same thing about worshipping on Sunday.  My response was, that perhaps the Lord, through His Holy Spirit, simply was endeavoring to assure this poster that, yes, He has a day, and/or that setting aside time specially to worship Him is a good thing.

Perhaps, with regard to the Sabbath day and the need for adaptation that may arise due to varying individual circumstances, the Lord feels the same way about such adaptation as He does about the substances used for the Sacrament.  With regard to the latter subject, He told Joseph Smith in Doctrine and Covenants Section 27, Verse 2:

Quote

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

Similarly, perhaps it "mattereth not" so much to the Lord when we worship as that we do it "with an eye single to [His] glory" and in remembrance of Him.  Recall, too, that the Apostles meet every Thursday, I believe it is, in the Temple, and, in that meeting, they administer and partake of the Sacrament.

__________________

*Surely, while Jews are not "hosting" Brigham Young University students in the sense of providing them shelter and other hospitality directly, it is only by leave of the Jewish government and the Jewish people that BYU students are able to study at the Center in the first place.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

note, in what, perhaps, is an illustration of the old adage, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do," that students studying at Brigham Young University's Jerusalem Center celebrate the Sabbath on the same day of the week as their Jewish hosts* do: on Saturday.  And, while I don't know for sure, it wouldn't surprise me if, in areas of the world in which Islam predominates, members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't celebrate the Sabbath on Friday, just as their Muslim hosts do.

In Hong Kong they celebrate the Sabbath every day of the week to accommodate all the full time housekeepers, etc who have one day off a week and it’s not Sunday.***  I am grateful that all these women’s needs are seen as more important than a tradition that even the Lord, well, especially the Lord, teaches is meant to be adaptable.  The Sabbath is to spiritually refresh us, provide us with a day devoted to God, not provide God with a day full of devotions to him (though hopefully that is the result since it would be one sign of us making wise use of the Sabbath).  Yet another witness that God’s work as a loving Father is centered on man’s progress.

I love Mark 2:27.  I think it a perfect snapshot of God’s relationship with his children.  It shows what he values most, how he has created the world and the gospel to meet the needs of his children, how worship is to be driven by love and not satisfying an ego driven deity that only cares about humanity because of what they give in worship or entertainment value.

***They also open the temple on Sunday several times a year for those whose day off is Sunday.

https://www.deseret.com/2014/4/11/20539188/lds-church-meetings-held-every-day-of-the-week-in-hong-kong

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[marineland]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:36 PM, CV75 said:

2) The so-called Biblical model allows the sacrament to entail or be part of a larger feast (1 Corinthians 11*), as was the Last Supper (the Passover Feast at the time).

In the biblical example of Christ (the Last Supper), the commemoration (or memorial portion) occurs after the meal.

The reference in 1 Corinthians 11 shows they were abusing this by overeating and getting drunk.  They turned the
"meal" portion into gluttony even before partaking of the memorial portion..

"When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.  For in eating every one taketh
before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink
in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?"

[CV75]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

In the biblical example of Christ (the Last Supper), the commemoration (or memorial portion) occurs after the meal.

The reference in 1 Corinthians 11 shows they were abusing this by overeating and getting drunk.  They turned the
"meal" portion into gluttony even before partaking of the memorial portion..

"When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.  For in eating every one taketh
before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink
in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?"

They also left some people out.

[marineland]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:21 PM, InCognitus said:

But in the Bible there is a similar pattern, since Jesus gave the sacrament to his disciples first (Matthew 26.26-27) and later the disciples gave it to others (Acts 2:42).

I would respectfully disagree. The pattern you cite is not comparable to how it occurred in the Book of Mormon
though.  A small set of disciples ate first, then gave to the other disciples.  Then this same small set of disciples
drank first, then gave to the rest of the other disciples.  

"And it came to pass that he brake bread again and blessed it, and gave to the disciples to eat. And when they
had eaten he commanded them that they should break bread, and give unto the multitude" (vv. 3-4)

 

On 3/20/2023 at 3:21 PM, InCognitus said:

As for being "filled", it wasn't because they were eating a meal.  They were using the word "filled" in the same sense that Jesus explained it in 3 Nephi 20:8:  "And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled."

Your reference in 3 Nephi 20:8 is a feeding in the spiritual sense.  The passages which I provided indicate
a meal in a physical sense, which involves the distribution of the bread and wine (water/grape juice) in a
specific sequence to two groups of people.  

For example.  In our church, we don't have a specific group of people that first partakes of his body and then
when they are finished, the emblem is passed unto the rest of the people so they too can partake. Likewise,
we don't have a specific group of people that then partakes of his blood and then when they are finished, the 
emblem of his blood (grape juice) is given unto the rest of the people so they too can drink.

Viewing verses 3-4 again.

"And it came to pass that he brake bread again and blessed it, and gave to the disciples to eat. And when they
had eaten he commanded them that they should break bread, and give unto the multitude".

From what I remember of my last visit to an LDS ward, the bread is already broken prior to the sacrament meeting.
This is the same in the church I attend. 

But we don't come together for a meal, but rather for a memorial or commemoration. We have a meal before or
after attending church.  We don't have one person designated to break the bread to give to a small set of disciples
who first eat and are filled and then when they are finished eating they are commanded to break bread so they can
give it to the other members in the church.  Even women who host "home churches" are allowed to administer the
emblems.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

I would respectfully disagree. The pattern you cite is not comparable to how it occurred in the Book of Mormon
though.  A small set of disciples ate first, then gave to the other disciples.  Then this same small set of disciples
drank first, then gave to the rest of the other disciples.  

"And it came to pass that he brake bread again and blessed it, and gave to the disciples to eat. And when they
had eaten he commanded them that they should break bread, and give unto the multitude" (vv. 3-4)

Can you show me anywhere in the entire Bible where the resurrected Jesus appeared and administered the sacrament in front of an entire crowd of people, and he was at the same time training the twelve disciples on how to administer the sacrament?   If you can't find anything like that in the Bible, then how can you compare this to the procedure in the Bible?

In the Bible, Jesus FIRST gave the bread and wine to his twelve apostles privately (Matthew 26.26-27), showing them how to do it.  THEN later the twelve apostles gave it to multitudes (Acts 2:42).  In the Book of Mormon Jesus FIRST gave the bread and wine to the twelve disciples, showing them how to do it, THEN the disciples gave the bread and wine to multitudes.  It's exactly the same procedure, but the only difference is that the resurrected Jesus was there personally in front of the multitude at the same time he was training his disciples.

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Your reference in 3 Nephi 20:8 is a feeding in the spiritual sense.  The passages which I provided indicate
a meal in a physical sense, which involves the distribution of the bread and wine (water/grape juice) in a
specific sequence to two groups of people.  

How do you know whether the passage you provided isn't talking about being filled in a spiritual sense?  It doesn't say it's not a spiritual sense.  But you are interpreting it in a physical sense.  Since their history was written after the fact by compiling the records (See 3 Nephi 26:12-14), do you think Mormon (the editor) would not have used being "filled" in the same sense that Jesus explained it in 3 Nephi 20:8?  In that verse, Jesus clearly is talking about partaking of the very bread and wine that they were eating and drinking in 3 Nephi 18:9 and 3 Nephi 19:13.  Jesus explained how they were "filled".  So we have your interpretation compared to Jesus.

1 hour ago, marineland said:

For example.  In our church, we don't have a specific group of people that first partakes of his body and then
when they are finished, the emblem is passed unto the rest of the people so they too can partake. Likewise,
we don't have a specific group of people that then partakes of his blood and then when they are finished, the 
emblem of his blood (grape juice) is given unto the rest of the people so they too can drink.

The way the Book of Mormon described the process was for two special occasions when Jesus was teaching them how to administer the sacrament.  He had to explain it to the twelve disciples first so that they would know how to give it to the multitude, and he used the same pattern as used in the Bible.  After Jesus was gone they didn't continue this same process (see Moroni 4 and 5, and Moroni 6:5-6).  It was only while Jesus was training them that this happened.

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Viewing verses 3-4 again.

"And it came to pass that he brake bread again and blessed it, and gave to the disciples to eat. And when they
had eaten he commanded them that they should break bread, and give unto the multitude".

From what I remember of my last visit to an LDS ward, the bread is already broken prior to the sacrament meeting.
This is the same in the church I attend. 

The bread isn't already broken in a Latter-day Saint ward.  The priests stand up at the beginning of the sacrament hymn, and they begin breaking the bread while the congregation is singing the hymn. 

1 hour ago, marineland said:

But we don't come together for a meal, but rather for a memorial or commemoration. We have a meal before or
after attending church.  We don't have one person designated to break the bread to give to a small set of disciples
who first eat and are filled and then when they are finished eating they are commanded to break bread so they can
give it to the other members in the church.  Even women who host "home churches" are allowed to administer the
emblems.

In the Book of Mormon, they didn't describe it as a meal anywhere in the text.  And they were only "filled" in a spiritual sense, as Jesus clearly explained.

Edited March 23, 2023 by InCognitus

[Pyreaux]

The Last Supper of Jesus was rather unique, being a Seder meal, in which the meal's bread was unbroken, being a whole offering, and was one of the only offerings not offered by a priest. The Lord's Supper came after and was a priestly kin to Shewbread, the "Bread of God" (not "for God") eaten as holy communion to impart holy contagion to priests alone to remember the everlasting covenant.

Since Passover comes only once a year, it was not exactly what Jesus was doing among the Nephites. Jude speaks of the Agape meal shared among Christians as a modifiable custom, the Eucharist was often a part of the agape meal, difficult to distinguish them (Jude 1:12) later modified by being separated from the Eucharist do to issues at Corinth (1 Corinthians 11:17–34).

In The Didache, the Eucharist was still a communal meal for gathered Christians, "When you have had your fill, give thanks in this way: ...To man, You have given for and drink to enjoy that they may give You thanks. But, to us, You have graciously given spiritual food, drink, and eternal life through Your Son" (Didache 10:1-3),

Edited March 24, 2023 by Pyreaux

[theplains]

19 hours ago, marineland said:

Even women who host "home churches" are allowed to administer the
emblems.

Marineland,

I agree with you in that point.  But we shouldn't put the entire focus on specifics in regards to exact
phrases and exact methods to describe the special part of the Last Supper. Doing so puts us in danger
of legalism or a meaningless ritual.  Even those two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their special
encounter in a brief "breaking of the bread" by Christ (Luke 24:30).  Each faith (LDS, Protestant, Catholic)
do it a little differently but the meaning is the same.  I'll include @InCognitus here since I would agree with
most, if not all, of what he said to you.

[marineland]

On 3/23/2023 at 4:59 PM, InCognitus said:

Can you show me anywhere in the entire Bible where the resurrected Jesus appeared and administered the sacrament in front of an entire crowd of people, and he was at the same time training the twelve disciples on how to administer the sacrament? 

The commemorative act in the latter portion of the Last Supper is not a matter of training on how to administer
the sacrament.  If it were, then Christian women would not be allowed to administer it.  I provided the example
earlier where Christian females in non-LDS churches are allowed to administer it.
 

On 3/23/2023 at 4:59 PM, InCognitus said:

In the Book of Mormon, they didn't describe it as a meal anywhere in the text.  And they were only "filled" in a spiritual sense, as Jesus clearly explained.

Let's look at verse 8 that you quoted - "And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body 
to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger
nor thirst, but shall be filled".

In this spiritual sense, the "filled" in 3 Nephi 20 occurs after eating and drinking.  Two conditions are met to
be "filled".

I would say 3 Nephi 18:4 talks of being "filled" in a physical "meal" sense - which is before they had partaken
of the wine. One condition was met to be "filled".

And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should give unto the multitude.

[InCognitus]

27 minutes ago, marineland said:

The commemorative act in the latter portion of the Last Supper is not a matter of training on how to administer
the sacrament.

I think it is exactly that, Jesus the eternal teacher.

28 minutes ago, marineland said:

If it were, then Christian women would not be allowed to administer it.  I provided the example
earlier where Christian females in non-LDS churches are allowed to administer it.

Just because other churches do things doesn't mean it is the way that Jesus trained his disciples to do things.

29 minutes ago, marineland said:

Let's look at verse 8 that you quoted - "And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body 
to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger
nor thirst, but shall be filled".

In this spiritual sense, the "filled" in 3 Nephi 20 occurs after eating and drinking.  Two conditions are met to
be "filled".

I would say 3 Nephi 18:4 talks of being "filled" in a physical "meal" sense - which is before they had partaken
of the wine. One condition was met to be "filled".

And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should give unto the multitude.

We've already discussed this.  Mormon, the person who abridged the text, was using "filled" in 3 Nephi 18:4-5 in the same sense as Jesus taught in 3 Nephi 20:8

The Bible tells us the same thing:  "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."  (John 6:35)

This is not about eating a meal, it's about being filled spiritually.

[Saint Bonaventure]

The Catholic Church has allowed female altar servers since the 1990s. These persons assist the priest.

Lay persons--both male and female--can be Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. This means that under certain circumstances, properly trained lay people can distribute communion. I received the Eucharist from a woman during COVID, as California's COVID restrictions required the Eucharist to be distributed too quickly for some parishes with a single priest and maybe no deacons.

In an LDS context, though, don't you all pass the bread and wine amongst the congregation? Doesn't that mean that everyone--men, women, boys, girls, visitors, pass the Sacrament?

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Saint Bonaventure
Too much confusing Catholic speak

[Pyreaux]

Yes, and women administer more officially, like olden day deaconesses, by administering to other women in the Temple ordinances. The boys ordained as Deacons (helpers) need to at least stand there ushering or wait for the trays, so they have more priestly duties, and that is their big duty. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

The Catholic Church has allowed female altar servers since the 1990s. These persons assist the priest.

Lay persons--both male and female--can be Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. This means that under certain circumstances, properly trained lay people can distribute communion. I received the Eucharist from a woman during COVID, as California's COVID restrictions required the Eucharist to be distributed too quickly for some parishes with a single priest and maybe no deacons.

In an LDS context, though, don't you all pass the bread and wine amongst the congregation? Doesn't that mean that everyone--men, women, boys, girls, visitors, pass the Sacrament?

In the past, I believe young women were allowed to distribute the sacrament trays when the young men weren’t available.  It is the blessing by the priests that is the necessary priesthood duty.  I believe deacons passing the sacrament is to help them prepare for those roles and is a policy rather than doctrine.

 But I may be wrong, it isn’t something I studied.

There has been at least one approved practical modification done that have the young women taking the trays from the deacons and carrying them into a female only space, the mother’s lounge (for breastfeeding if you are not familiar with those).

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/10/03/whats-this-mormon-girls/

It was discussed in the past here a couple of times, including here:  https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71159-and-they-came-to-passthe-sacrament/

I believe I have seen documentation of the claim in the 1940s young women were allowed to pass the sacrament due to the shortage of young and older men in some wards, it may even be in that thread as I just read the first page.