Matthew 11:27; John 5:19, 30; John 8:18–28. The Son doeth nothing but what He see the Father doeth

[nuclearfuels]

Matthew 11:27; John 5:19, 30; John 8:18–28

Is the Savior teaching here:

1. "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become."

- God was once a man on an earth and held the same calling (Savior, Messiah) that Jesus holds for those within His jurisdiction?

2. Jesus is ministering the way His Father did

3. The Father is personally teaching the Savior what to do, how to do it, etc.

It is the grand truth that in all that Jesus came to say and do, including and especially in His atoning suffering and sacrifice, He was showing us who and what God our Eternal Father is like, how completely devoted He is to His children in every age and nation. In word and in deed Jesus was trying to reveal and make personal to us the true nature of His Father, our Father in Heaven. (Jeffrey R. Holland, “The Grandeur of God,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2003, 70)

Edited March 8 by nuclearfuels
Added Elder Holland reference

[Pyreaux]

John 5:19, 30 Jesus can do nothing but what he sees His Father do.

G#991: βλέπω blépō to see; suggests the power of seeing, seeing in secret, where men see nothing, Matthew 6:4 "your Father which seeth in secret"

G#4160: ποιέω poieó do, act, suggests the imitation of his actions or following his path, so in a past tense.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

John 5:19, 30 Jesus can do nothing but what he sees His Father do.

G#991: βλέπω blépō to see; suggests the power of seeing, seeing in secret, where men see nothing, Matthew 6:4 "your Father which seeth in secret"

G#4160: ποιέω poieó do, act, suggests the imitation of his actions or following his path, so in a past tense.

Is the past tense of "do/make" used anywhere in these verses?

Greek, Ancient verb 'ποιέω' conjugated (verbix.com)

 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Is the past tense of "do/make" used anywhere in these verses?

Greek, Ancient verb 'ποιέω' conjugated (verbix.com)

I just assume in order to imitate the Father's actions would be after he had done them whenever that was, but it could also be immediately after his actions in a more present tense.

[JLHPROF]

John 5:19, 30 Jesus can do nothing but what he sees His Father do.

If this referred to the Father previously being a Savior to a world how would Jesus have "seen" that.  He wouldn't have been even a premortal spirit when it happened.

Home movies?

But Joseph also taught a similar idea:

"He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible...

What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”–to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious–in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before."

 

Joseph at the very least is teaching that the Father was born, worked out his probation, laid down his life and was resurrected.  He MIGHT also be saying that the Father overcame death in the same way the Savior did, as opposed to how we will be resurrected.

[Pyreaux]

My exact thoughts, with even a full reference, jolly good.

If He imitated God's path, how far back does the path go? Including the very decision to descend from his exalted spirithood into mortality (most imitated "actions" taken by the mortal Jesus I imagine as mortal actions; via living perfectly, dying particularly)? Is it exact as every step, and utterance (and statements about his Father) and even being crucified, or is this where choosing what actions he is imitating gets murky? The Father could had sacrificed himself, or let himself die to raise himself up, or did he just instantly transfigure himself the moment he inhabited flesh, and these could all be types and shadows, lite-imitations of the past. I would suppose it was generically similar, instead of exact as it raises a lot more questions, like; Jesus had to die to resurrect and so He lets a soldier kill him, if this is the exact path of the Father, then who killed the Father? Unless it was a part of an "endless round" or loop, if it happened before, it might happen again. However, I don't see that, we've disrupted the pattern if we've managed to escape the crucible of crucifixion. I then figure a generic path of death, resurrection and exhalation is the crucible, not the exact methods Jesus underwent. Jesus' methods are only varied because his method was for everyone's salvation and exaltation, on top of mere exaltation for himself. Salvation of all doesn't seem to be the purpose of the Father's mortal prohibition or else we wouldn't need Christ.

Edited March 9 by Pyreaux

[nuclearfuels]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:34 AM, Pyreaux said:

could also be immediately after his actions in a more present tense.

The Father was raising the dead on other worlds approximately near and before the time the mortal Messiah did the same?

[nuclearfuels]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If this referred to the Father previously being a Savior to a world how would Jesus have "seen" that.  He wouldn't have been even a premortal spirit when it happened.

Jehovah could have been taught premortally what the Father did and what the Mortal Messiah would have to do. Not sure He'd remember it after passing thru the veil but He could have been reminded/taught again during his mortal life.

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

He MIGHT also be saying that the Father overcame death in the same way the Savior did, as opposed to how we will be resurrected.

OK. Keys to the Resurrection or Atonement plus Resurrection?

 

[nuclearfuels]

21 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Is it exact as every step, and utterance (and statements about his Father) and even being crucified

This is my understanding of the verses in question. I could be wrong/limited/misinterpreting them though.

21 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Salvation of all doesn't seem to be the purpose of the Father's mortal prohibition or else we wouldn't need Christ.

Christ is the Savior for all inhabitants of everything He created via the priesthood. I dont understand why that phase with jurisdictional limits, priesthood, resurrection, Atonement would be any different for the Father. Couldn't the Father have followed His Father's / His Council's assignment / calling, created a universe, provided a means of redemption for the inhabitants, etc.? I dont' see how these diminsh anything the Savior did.

[Pyreaux]

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

The Father was raising the dead on other worlds approximately near and before the time the mortal Messiah did the same?

Well... We are talking about Seer abilities, technically it could be the future though seen as though it has happened, but I'm going to put my foot down and say it's the past, it makes the most sense to me.

[Pyreaux]

7 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

This is my understanding of the verses in question. I could be wrong/limited/misinterpreting them though.

Christ is the Savior for all inhabitants of everything He created via the priesthood. I dont understand why that phase with jurisdictional limits, priesthood, resurrection, Atonement would be any different for the Father. Couldn't the Father have followed His Father's / His Council's assignment / calling, created a universe, provided a means of redemption for the inhabitants, etc.? I dont' see how these diminsh anything the Savior did.

I'm just using clues I have to eliminate extreme interpretations. If saviorhood is an ongoing cycle, and God, for example was also crucified, why do we become deified without being crucified? We only have to die, likewise I would think crucifixion of the Father seems unnecessary, unless you take a strict interpretation of this verse.