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Premortal and postmortal Sacrament Ordinance?

nuclearfuels

By nuclearfuels
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nuclearfuels Mentor

nuclearfuels

Posted
Posted (edited)

Wondering what type of premortal and postmortal ordianance we may have / did / might have / might in the future also participate in. Open to your thoughts and opinions with the understanding that we're basing some of that on our experience, study, testimony, prayer, and opinion and are not speaking for the Church.

I don't recall being taught or reading that premortal bodies eat but my little girl told me:

Of course, they eat. 

What do they eat then?

Angel food cake. :)

-

Perhaps if we didn't eat, we raised our right hands to support Jehovah after this/something similar:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this Anointment (of Jehovah) to the souls of all those who sustain it that they may do so in anticipation of the body and the blood of thy Son, which shall be shed for them, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember Him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

If we did eat, was it like this?

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread(?) to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in anticipation of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember Him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water? to the souls of all those who drink? of it, that they may do it in anticipation of the blood of thy Son, which shall be shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember Him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Edited by nuclearfuels
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Pyreaux Mentor

Pyreaux

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Posted (edited)

My first thought was this sounded real silly, but thinking more of the possibility ...

Lazarus and the rich man depict spirits with tongues that thirst for water, fingers that can hold water. The Lord as a spirit has a meal with Abraham and other times brandishes a sword. Paul ascends into heaven as a possible spiritual body that was apparently indistinguishable from his physical body. The Spirit of Samuel was an “old” man in a “coat” or priestly robe. The spiritual realms seem very similar to ours. Spirits seem rather tactile, if only to other spiritual beings and spiritual objects, as spirits even wear cloths. Might it be too wild that there could be a spiritual bread or other spiritual analogs of earth, a figurative sacrament of sorts. Was it a figurative "War" in heaven, a war of words that somehow forced Satan out of heaven?

Do spirits have any similar properties of their physical counter parts, they are certainly depicted as still having physical properties. Spirits might not have enough substance to shake a hand, but they can still make winds, transport Elijah, Ezekiel, and Jesus around, and wrestle Jacob and Joseph Smith.

Edited by Pyreaux
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Durangout Community Regular

Durangout

Posted
Posted

Those who receive the Melchezdec priesthood were fore-ordained to receive it.        I think that is was an actual physical ordination to receive the MP during mortality.  Much like in the temple we fore-ordain individuals to become something in the future.

There was a talk by E Maxwell alluding to this but of course I can’t find it now…

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InCognitus Grand Master

InCognitus

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4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

My first thought was this sounded real silly, but thinking more of the possibility ...

Lazarus and the rich man depict spirits with tongues that thirst for water, fingers that can hold water. The Lord as a spirit has a meal with Abraham and other times brandishes a sword. Paul ascends into heaven as a possible spiritual body that was apparently indistinguishable from his physical body. The Spirit of Samuel was an “old” man in a “coat” or priestly robe. The spiritual realms seem very similar to ours. Spirits seem rather tactile, if only to other spiritual beings and spiritual objects, as spirits even wear cloths. Might it be too wild that there could be a spiritual bread or other spiritual analogs of earth, a figurative sacrament of sorts. Was it a figurative "War" in heaven, a war of words that somehow forced Satan out of heaven?

Do spirits have any similar properties of their physical counter parts, they are certainly depicted as still having physical properties. Spirits might not have enough substance to shake a hand, but they can still make winds, transport Elijah, Ezekiel, and Jesus around, and wrestle Jacob and Joseph Smith.

I agree with what you're saying about spirits having similar appearance to their physical counterparts, but some of the examples you list may be explained by other possibilities.  For example:

  1. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and as such it may include symbolism that isn't necessarily part of reality (although it would be teaching true principles in every way).
  2. The "Lord" having a meal with Abraham:  I think it is Abraham having a meal with three physical men who are the Lord's representative (i.e. like a visit from his stake presidency, or translated beings with physical bodies - remember Enoch and his people).  When Abraham addresses these men in Genesis 18:3, the JST changes "My Lord" to brethren.  And later in chapter 19, two of the men are called "angels", but the Hebrew (and Greek) word for "angel" simply means messenger (which could be mortal men or heavenly beings or translated beings).  In verse 12 of chapter 19, the JST changes "And the men said unto Lot..." to "And these holy men said unto Lot...".   
  3. Paul's ascent into heaven:  When he says "whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth", this could be a vision experience and he wasn't sure if it was physical or not.  But it does seem to support your point about sometimes not being able to tell the difference between the spirit and physical body.
  4. The spirit of Samuel:  This is a good example of the spirit realm having the appearance of the physical realm.
  5. The wrestle with Jacob:  There was a whole thread devoted to this topic early last year, here.  I think Jacob was dealing with either a mortal messenger of God, or an angel of God that is a translated being, having a physical body, and I explained my reasoning in this post here. 
  6. The power over the elements:  This is true of any being who is given God's priesthood power (whether a spirit, mortal man, translated being, resurrected person). 

As for the war in heaven, I don't think they used tanks and missiles.  Maybe an air cannon or two.  Who knows?  :) 

Edited by InCognitus
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Pyreaux Mentor

Pyreaux

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I agree with what you're saying about spirits having similar appearance to their physical counterparts, but some of the examples you list may be explained by other possibilities.  For example:

  1. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and as such it may include symbolism that isn't necessarily part of reality (although it would be teaching true principles in every way).
  2. The "Lord" having a meal with Abraham:  I think it is Abraham having a meal with three physical men who are the Lord's representative (i.e. like a visit from his stake presidency, or translated beings with physical bodies - remember Enoch and his people).  When Abraham addresses these men in Genesis 18:3, the JST changes "My Lord" to brethren.  And later in chapter 19, two of the men are called "angels", but the Hebrew (and Greek) word for "angel" simply means messenger (which could be mortal men or heavenly beings or translated beings).  In verse 12 of chapter 19, the JST changes "And the men said unto Lot..." to "And these holy men said unto Lot...".   
  3. Paul's ascent into heaven:  When he says "whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth", this could be a vision experience and he wasn't sure if it was physical or not.  But it does seem to support your point about sometimes not being able to tell the difference between the spirit and physical body.
  4. The Spirit of Samuel:  This is a good example of the spirit realm having the appearance of the physical realm.
  5. The wrestle with Jacob:  There was a whole thread devoted to this topic early last year, here.  See my response here.  I think Jacob was dealing with either a mortal messenger of God, or an angel of God that is a translated being, having a physical body.  
  6. The power over the elements:  This is true of any being who is given God's priesthood power (whether a spirit, mortal man, translated being, resurrected person). 

As for the war in heaven, I don't think they used tanks and missiles.  Maybe an air cannon or two.  Who knows?  :) 

I think the water of Abraham's Bosom is probably the gospel.

I also think It was likely a messenger possessed by the spirit of the Lord that ate with Abraham.

These are largely my assumptions on the ability of spirits to consume. Though the Lord appeared as a man to Gideon and had a meal, but his manner of consuming it was to set it on fire.

There seems to be some ability to interact with matter at least in unconventional ways and results. Contact with the Holy Ghost brought a clay golem to life as flesh. The pre-incarnate Jesus physically touching the Sixteen Stones for the Brother of Jarod with his finger turned them into tzohar stones. Maybe that was because that was how the Brother of Jarod asked him to do it, but what charades if touching the stones wasn't actually possible, but was an illusion. There would be a difference if Spirit-Jesus tossed the stones... like Michael tossed Satan out of heaven.

 

Edited by Pyreaux
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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

Some ordinances aren't necessary when Christ is actually present.

And while resurrected Christ ate food.

These principles are both in scripture and provide answers to this topic.

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Pyreaux Mentor

Pyreaux

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Meaning?

Back when he was a preincarnate spirit being, there were divine royal figures Isaiah called Immanuels (Isa 8:8). They can become possessed by the spirit of the Lord, and speak as though they are the Lord, and apparently in such times it is even justified to worship the figure as his avatar. In the coronation of Solomon, Solomon sits on the Lord's throne, and they worshipped King Solomon, because he was the Lord.

"And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king." (1 Chron 29:20)

I think one such priest came, like Melchizedek, and stood in place of the Lord and ate Abraham's breadcakes.

Edited by Pyreaux
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blackstrap Veteran

blackstrap

Posted
Posted (edited)

So , a resurrected body CAN eat but MUST it?

I see no reason for the sacrament pre-mortality or , for that matter, post the final resurrection.

NDEs that I have read often say they see relatives as they were in life but most say they don't see themselves with bodies. I wonder why that is. 

Edited by blackstrap
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Dario_M Mentor

Dario_M

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Posted

Why is it that people constantly wanna change things?  I just wanna keep the sacrament how it is now on this very moment. If i go to church i just wanna eat some bread 🍞 And drink some water💧 and my Sacrament feels compleet. I don't think we need to change that. 

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nuclearfuels Mentor

nuclearfuels

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On 2/27/2023 at 8:19 PM, JLHPROF said:

1. Some ordinances aren't necessary when Christ is actually present.

2. And while resurrected Christ ate food.

3. These principles are both in scripture and provide answers to this topic.

1. He gave the Sacrament to His Disciples, the Nephites, and likely the Lost Tribes. Messiah and Christ mean Anointed One, suggesting He was anointed / called by God the Father / Elohim to serve as the Savior. We likewise are ordained in mortality to callings. 

2. Premortally there were Resurrected Beings, Intelligences, and Spirits (spirit bodies). Postmortally it will be the same. So, not sure I get your point here.

3. Yes. and here we are.

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm sorry. I don't get it. 

 

Pyreaux using the Spirit of Samuel as evidence is not that great since if the Lord didn’t answer Saul when he prayed correctly, why would Saul get an answer when he used the forbidden ways?  There is the possibility it was a scam by the witch who knew the king and guessed what he was there for or it was a false spirit. 

Edited by Calm
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