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Redefining Marriage to it's Biblical Definition


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It is interesting to me that 22 is mentioned twice in Ether 3.  Just a coincidence?

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16 And the friends of Jared and his brother were in number about twenty and two souls; and they also begat sons and daughters before they came to the promised land; and therefore they began to be many.…. 

20 And accordingly the people were gathered together. Now the number of the sons and the daughters of the brother of Jared were twenty and two souls; and the number of sons and daughters of Jared were twelve, he having four sons.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

A man can have serial wives each with a number of children without polygamy. Death in childbirth was common and if he married women of childbearing years rather than his own age, he could easily have over twenty kids during his lifetime.  There is also the possibility of adoption and fostering increasing the number of children a patriarch/leader might have. 
 

The terms for sons and daughters may be more generic and mean descendants as well.

Possible.   I am just saying if I was going to play the odds, polygamy is most likely.  Polygamy back in those days was not seen as bad like it is today.    Is it more likely that brother of Jared married wife 1, she has 5 kids, she dies, he married wife 2, she has 8 kids, she dies, he married wife 3, and so on OR he just has 3 or 4 wives and had 22 kids.  Then Orihah comes on the scene and engages in serial wives again with 31 kids?   At some point we have to start seriously considering that polygamy is involved here in not serial wives.

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40 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Possible.   I am just saying if I was going to play the odds, polygamy is most likely.  Polygamy back in those days was not seen as bad like it is today.    Is it more likely that brother of Jared married wife 1, she has 5 kids, she dies, he married wife 2, she has 8 kids, she dies, he married wife 3, and so on OR he just has 3 or 4 wives and had 22 kids.  Then Orihah comes on the scene and engages in serial wives again with 31 kids?   At some point we have to start seriously considering that polygamy is involved here in not serial wives.

Triplets ran in the family.

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2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Possible.   I am just saying if I was going to play the odds, polygamy is most likely.  Polygamy back in those days was not seen as bad like it is today.    Is it more likely that brother of Jared married wife 1, she has 5 kids, she dies, he married wife 2, she has 8 kids, she dies, he married wife 3, and so on OR he just has 3 or 4 wives and had 22 kids.  Then Orihah comes on the scene and engages in serial wives again with 31 kids?   At some point we have to start seriously considering that polygamy is involved here in not serial wives.

My guess is fostering and adoption by leader or it’s referring to descendants, so grandkids as well would be more likely than serial wives for 22 kids, but polygamy might be what was done, which might very well mean God tolerated it, but wasn’t happy about it.

There is no praising either of the daddies for having so many kids iirc. It is just a statement of fact. 

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12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Polygamy is regulated.  It can be practiced incorrectly.

You are missing the point. It isn't whether or not it occurs in the Book of Mormon in a context where it isn't bad. It's the fact that the Book of Mormon never has anything good to say about it. That is all I was saying. If you have to read it into the text in this way, you have already lost that argument.

This is not a commentary on whether polygamy can be commanded by God. Or whether polygamy is inherently good or bad. It is simply that the Book of Mormon presents a single view of polygamy and does so consistently.

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On 3/3/2023 at 8:50 PM, carbon dioxide said:

it was practiced among the Jaredites.  The brother of Jared has 22 kids and Orihah had 31 kids.   Now I am going to play the odds here that both of them had multiple wives to have that many kids and the text says both of those men were righteous. 

Always came away from those chapters with the same impression

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On 3/2/2023 at 3:24 PM, Calm said:

How do you see it as possible that it once was viewed as revelation?

Many false doctrines have been viewed as revelation, in this church and others. Which is even the official stance of the church, with many things that were viewed as revelation at the time now consigned to them "speaking as men".

 

On 3/2/2023 at 4:46 PM, InCognitus said:

What are your views on the Bible?  Do you hold the same opinion about polygamy as practiced in the Bible?  And, on what basis do you define polygamy as "evil, blasphemous", or a "satanic practice"?  (These are honest questions, I'm just wanting to understand how you understand these things).

Yes, I hold the same opinion regarding the Bible.

The following basis;

The Book of Mormon; "For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the Scriptures: for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his Son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Wherefore, thus saith the Lord: I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might rise up unto me a righteous branch, from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: for there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none: For I, the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women. And whoredoms is an abomination before me: thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people: otherwise, they shall hearken unto these things. For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people, in the land of Jerusalem; yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me, against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts; for they shall not lead away captive, the daughters of my people, because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction: for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto they of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things, which ye ought not have done. Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascendeth up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

But behold, I, Jacob, would speak unto you that are pure in heart. Look unto God with firmness of mind, and pray unto him with exceeding faith, and he will console you

in your afflictions, and he will plead your cause, and send down justice upon those who seek your destruction.

O ye that are pure in heart, lift up your heads and receive the pleasing word of God, and feast upon his love; for ye may, if your mind are firm, forever. But, wo, wo, unto you that are not pure in heart; that are filthy this day before God; for except ye shall repent, the land is cursed for your sakes; and the Lamanites, which are not filthy like unto you, (nevertheless, they are cursed with a sore cursing) shall scourge you even unto destruction. And the time speedily cometh that except ye repent, they shall possess the land of your inheritance, and the Lord God will lead away the righteous out from among you. Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate, because of their filthiness and the cursings which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you: for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fathers, that they should have, save it were one wife; and concubines they should have none; and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. And now this commandment they observe to keep it; wherefore, because of this observance in keeping this commandment. the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people. Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands, and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you, is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your Great Creator?"

The Prophet Joseph; "As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of
Latter­day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and
other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. This is to
notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his
iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April
next, to make answer to these charges."

“I preached in the grove and pronounced a curse upon all adulterers and fornicators, and
unvirtuous persons and those who have made use of my name to carry on their
iniquitous designs.”

"“Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families
to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a
community of wives, which things are an abomination in the sight of God."


“Gave instruction to try those who were preaching teaching or practicing the doctrine of
plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice thereof— No man
shall have but one wife.”

"[John Bennett] reached out his hand to Br. Joseph and said, will you forgive me,
weeping at the time; he said Br. Joseph, I am guilty, I acknowledge it, and I beg of you
not to expose me, for it will ruin me; Joseph replied, Doctor! why are you using my name
to carry on your hellish wickedness? Have I ever taught you that fornication and adultery
was right, or polygamy or any such practices? He said you never did.”

 

and Polygamy was received as a revelation of Satan by the Brethren of the Secret Priesthood, who imported it into the church along with blood oaths and robbery. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Always came away from those chapters with the same impression

Then it was likely part of their downfall. One of the problems with polygynous aristocracy is that the aristocracy gets way too big for the commoners to support. The Jaredite dynastic struggles would also take on a new dimension.

The evidence is inconclusive though.

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FYI , the record for the number of children from 1 woman is  69 from , I believe, 27 pregnancies. 

One should also note that slavery was a well accepted societal practice in biblical times, so much so that rules were given, by prophets . to regulate it. 

Also, in our much more enlightened times , there are about 30 million slaves in the world. More than in ancient times. But polygamy is the evil Satanic practice. 

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1 hour ago, Jaydes said:

the Brethren of the Secret Priesthood, who imported it into the church along with blood oaths and robbery. 

These are?

I assume you believe Joseph never practiced polygamy (I have no intent trying to persuade you otherwise, just want to understand your full reasoning as some details are unfamiliar to me)?

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34 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

FYI , the record for the number of children from 1 woman is  69 from , I believe, 27 pregnancies. 

One should also note that slavery was a well accepted societal practice in biblical times, so much so that rules were given, by prophets . to regulate it. 

Also, in our much more enlightened times , there are about 30 million slaves in the world. More than in ancient times. But polygamy is the evil Satanic practice. 

I suspect Jaydes believes there can be more than one evil Satanic practice.

Human trafficking/slavery is one of our modern day horrors.

Edited by Calm
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44 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

FYI , the record for the number of children from 1 woman is  69 from , I believe, 27 pregnancies. 

And apparently the dad married after his first wife died at age 76 (Russian peasant btw) and his second wife had 18 more.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-prolific-mother-ever

I wonder what the mother thought about it.  With all but a couple surviving, she must have had extraordinary health and a great diet.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Always came away from those chapters with the same impression

Agreed.

There's also the possibility however slight that Lehi was a polygamist. We know that Ishmael's five daughters married Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Nephi and Zoram. We don't know if there were any other people on the trip who could have married Lehi however we do know that Nephi differentiated between his mother and the mother of Joseph and Jacob born in the wilderness. We also know that Laman, Lemuel, Nephi and Sam were old enough to marry before Jacob and Joseph were born. The odds of Sariah still being of childbearing age when all of her four sons were married is unlikely. It is more likely either that Lehi was widowed and Jacob and Joseph were born to a second wife or he married a plural life.

It's not conclusive. It is still a possibility.

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3 hours ago, Jaydes said:

Polygamy was received as a revelation of Satan by the Brethren of the Secret Priesthood, who imported it into the church along with blood oaths and robbery. 

Utter nonsense and certainly not history.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

These are?

I assume you believe Joseph never practiced polygamy (I have no intent trying to persuade you otherwise, just want to understand your full reasoning as some details are unfamiliar to me)?

The Brethren of the Secret Priesthood was essentially a secretive cult that took root in Joseph Smith's church behind the scenes, especially in England, comprised of Heber Kimball, Brigham Young, the Quorum of the Twelve, William Clayton, Newell Whitney, Hosea Stout, and some others. It believed that it was the recipient of a new and sacred priesthood that authorized it to perform polygamous marriages, and in such doctrines as AGD, Blood Atonement, Blood Oaths, etc- and was heavily inspired by the Cochranite Church, and revelations Brigham Young and others claim to have received abroad. They also had a habit of embezzling church funds, and were also known as "the Secret Chamber".

Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a monogamist who condemned polygamy (albiet not as harshly as Hyrum and Rigdon).

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.

There's also the possibility however slight that Lehi was a polygamist. We know that Ishmael's five daughters married Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Nephi and Zoram. We don't know if there were any other people on the trip who could have married Lehi however we do know that Nephi differentiated between his mother and the mother of Joseph and Jacob born in the wilderness. We also know that Laman, Lemuel, Nephi and Sam were old enough to marry before Jacob and Joseph were born. The odds of Sariah still being of childbearing age when all of her four sons were married is unlikely. It is more likely either that Lehi was widowed and Jacob and Joseph were born to a second wife or he married a plural life.

It's not conclusive. It is still a possibility.

I think you are judging them by marriage ages and spacing these days. She easily could have had the four boys with 6 years. Let’s be generous and say she had her first at 18 (could have been a couple of years younger easily).  The oldest son gets married when 18 and Nephi 6 years later, making Sarai 42. Not unreasonable to have two more, especially given the Lord blessing the women to give plenty of breast milk for the wee ones. 

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

I think you are judging them by marriage ages and spacing these days. She easily could have had the four boys with 6 years. Let’s be generous and say she had her first at 18 (could have been a couple of years younger easily).  The oldest son gets married when 18 and Nephi 6 years later, making Sarai 42. Not unreasonable to have two more, especially given the Lord blessing the women to give plenty of breast milk for the wee ones. 

Just raising a logical possibility.  Obviously not a certainty.

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I don’t think it is logical because the mother of Jacob and Joseph who is afflicted is one of Nephi’s “my parents”.

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and my parents being stricken in years, and having suffered much grief because of their children, they were brought down, yea, even upon their sick beds.. Because of their grief, and much sorrow, and the iniquity of my brethren, they were brought near even to be carried out of this time, to meet their God; yea, their gray hairs were about to be brought down to lie low in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast into a watery grave. And Jacob and Joseph also, being young, having need of much nourishment, were grieved because of the afflictions of their mother….

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/18?lang=eng

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