Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

How else does God guide people without appealing to the inner compass (the light of Christ) that we are all born with? Not possible.

Yes, everyone is given the light of Christ. I mentioned this in my first response to you. But there are serious limitations to how much guidance one receives from the light of Christ. There’s a reason why there is so much confusion and wickedness in the world.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I am addressing the correct identification of the power of the Holy Ghost by someone who has not been taught to pray and receive answers from the scriptures or the prophets, as I did. When you trace the origins of our knowledge of this to the scriptures, you also have to trace that their contents came from conversations with angels and God.

Yes, the knowledge in the scriptures originally comes from angels and God himself. But as I stated before God does not speak face to face or send angels to most of humanity. He doesn’t guide each individual with their own personal face to face meetings with him and angels. Instead he speaks to prophets in this way and they write his words down as scripture or deliver them in person. 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, pogi said:

The scriptures and prophets are critical

Yes, very critical. Without them we would all dwindle in unbelief. 

2 hours ago, pogi said:

but we are not expected to follow blindly.

No one is saying that we are expected to blindly follow. We exercise faith by applying the teachings of the scriptures and prophets in our lives until we gain a perfect knowledge of their truthfulness. We also pray and ask God for guidance and confirmation as taught by the scriptures and prophets. 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, everyone is given the light of Christ. I mentioned this in my first response to you. But there are serious limitations to how much guidance one receives from the light of Christ. There’s a reason why there is so much confusion and wickedness in the world.

Yes, the knowledge in the scriptures originally comes from angels and God himself. But as I stated before God does not speak face to face or send angels to most of humanity. He doesn’t guide each individual with their own personal face to face meetings with him and angels. Instead he speaks to prophets in this way and they write his words down as scripture or deliver them in person. 

These are not subjects I was addressing. I was addressing the correct identification of the power of the Holy Ghost by someone who has not been taught to pray and receive answers from the scriptures or the prophets, as I did. 

Edited by CV75
Link to comment
On 3/17/2023 at 1:38 PM, mfbukowski said:

How do you know the scriptures are true?

Without personal testimony you have a dusty book with weird stories written thousands of years ago

^^^This^^^

On 3/17/2023 at 8:38 PM, mfbukowski said:

I deduced [true principles] by the spirit and then found a church that fit close enough which the spirit told me to accept.

I still do that with every teaching I hear.

In God I trust; everyone else must conform to the spirit or out they go....

And anyone can find these principles in their hearts through inspiration.

^^^And This^^^

By way of illustration -

There's this concept called the Adam-God Theory, which was put forward by Church leaders who have access to the Light of Christ, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures, the temple, the counsel of fellow members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, visions, angels, Jesus Chirst (as head of the Church and Source of the aforementioned Light), and presumably even God the Father.

And this same Adam-God Theory was subsequently rejected and labelled heresy by Church leaders who have access to the Light of Christ, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures, the temple, the counsel of fellow members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, visions, angels, Jesus Christ (as head of the Church and Source of the aforementioned Light), and presumably even God the Father.

Thus we see that being able to claim multiple avenues and levels of divine guidance does not guarantee the claimants' conclusions are correct. Having access to multiple avenues and levels of divine guidance arguably increases the odds, but it is obviously no guarantee.

Nor are there any guarantees that similar mistakes never found their way into the scriptures (regardless of whether Brigham Young or Spencer W. Kimball was correct on the topic of Adam-God).

Imo one of the great strengths of the LDS paradigm is its emphasis on, justification of, and instruction in putting ALL teachings to an Alma Chapter 32-style test.

With that lead-in, let's now look @MustardSeed's post:

On 3/16/2023 at 10:33 AM, MustardSeed said:

Ever since I was a child, I have been asking how to interpret scripture. The only thing that I can make sense of is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and to interpret scripture personally for me alone through that relationship.

I think the laws of God are sometimes written with greater clarity in our hearts than they are in the words passed down to us as scripture, hence the wisdom of placing one's relationship with Christ first, and using that as a lens through which to interpret and apply scripture.  But note that, the day will come when we follow the law that is written in our hearts, not needing any external teacher.  As the Lord said to Jeremiah:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel....

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

Maybe we are actually drawing closer and closer to that day?

Edited by manol
Link to comment
57 minutes ago, CV75 said:

These are not subjects I was addressing. I was addressing the correct identification of the power of the Holy Ghost by someone who has not been taught to pray and receive answers from the scriptures or the prophets, as I did. 

Where did you learn that there was a God, how to pray, that there is a Holy Ghost, or that you should pray to find out which church to join?

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did you learn that there was a God, how to pray, that there is a Holy Ghost, or that you should pray to find out which church to join?

This exactly.  Without scripture we'd be no more accurate in our faith than an ancient culture praying to the sun in the sky or our ancestors for a good harvest.

Scripture provides the record of who God is and how he operates with mankind.  Without it we'd know nothing of Christ, the Holy Ghost, resurrection etc.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did you learn that there was a God, how to pray, that there is a Holy Ghost, or that you should pray to find out which church to join?

Not from the scriptures, as valuabe as they are.

Edited by CV75
Link to comment
57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This exactly.  Without scripture we'd be no more accurate in our faith than an ancient culture praying to the sun in the sky or our ancestors for a good harvest.

Scripture provides the record of who God is and how he operates with mankind.  Without it we'd know nothing of Christ, the Holy Ghost, resurrection etc.

This is incorrect, as valuable as the scriptures are.

Edited by CV75
Link to comment
4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, very critical. Without them we would all dwindle in unbelief. 

No one is saying that we are expected to blindly follow. We exercise faith by applying the teachings of the scriptures and prophets in our lives until we gain a perfect knowledge of their truthfulness. We also pray and ask God for guidance and confirmation as taught by the scriptures and prophets. 

Yep, sounds like Alma 32 to me - plant the seed (“apply the teachings”) and we “know” what is good and the will of the Lord by the fruits.   Isn’t that exactly what I said?  It seems you agree with my original comment in the end.

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yep, sounds like Alma 32 to me - plant the seed (“apply the teachings”) and we “know” what is good and the will of the Lord by the fruits.  

Yes, indeed. You plant the word of God received from the scriptures and prophets and then it grows from faith to a perfect knowledge. 

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Isn’t that exactly what I said?  It seems you agree with my original comment in the end.

I think the difference (and it’s a big one) is that you believe that testing the word leads to setting aside or reinterpreting teachings in the scriptures, while I hold that testing the word will confirm the truth of the teachings in the scriptures. 

 

Link to comment
55 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did you learn about this things?

From someone else right? And where did they learn about these things? 

There are plenty of cultures throughout the world that pray to God and have no knowledge or even access to scriptures. 

Your assumption is demonstratively false.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, indeed. You plant the word of God received from the scriptures and prophets and then it grows from faith to a perfect knowledge. 

No, not just from the scriptures and prophets, but from all sources truth.  Many people live without scripture and prophets but live with God inside of them.  I remember as a missionary we would teach in the first discussion, how we may all call God by a different name but it is all the same Supreme Being.  

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think the difference (and it’s a big one) is that you believe that testing the word leads to setting aside or reinterpreting teachings in the scriptures

If it doesn't bear fruit then we shouldn't just blindly trust that it is a good fruit.  In such a case, yes, we should set it aside or interpret it in a way that does bear fruit.  Why press forward in a fruitless and blind faith?

 

Edited by pogi
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Please name a culture that has zero access to the scriptures that prays to God and has any understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Are you suggesting that God and his directing light is absent from people and cultures who have never been introduced to scripture or prophets?   They have no concept of God inspired morality found in the gospel of Jesus Christ?   On what basis will these people be judged at final judgment if not from what they did with the light they have been given, I wonder?  

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did you learn about this things?

From someone else right? And where did they learn about these things? 

I was advised by someone who was about to join the Church to someday, when I was interested in religion, pray to know what to do concerning the Church as he described it (as having a prophet and twelve apostles; the original Church restored). This was a brief conversation before we went our separate ways. He did not cite scripture. We did not talk about "what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth."

He learned about the Church from the missionaries. I do not know the role the scriptures played in his conversion; he did not mention them -- he didn't even mention the Book of Mormon. I can guess that he and the missionaries were more familiar with the scriptures than I, but whatever they learned from the scriptures isn't the point; what I learned from them is the point, which is nothing at the time since I did not have them at the time.

Jospeh Smith read James 1:5-6. Many thousands of other people had read it too, but they didn't have a Vision. Something else was working on/in Jospeh. I hadn't read it at all and yet I had my experience. The Lord led me to that point through various other means and life experiences that drew me to want to ask Him which church to join, but no scripture to "know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth" (quoted from your post). I did not even meet with the missionaries or visit a ward/branch.

My point is very specific: Posted yesterday at 04:25 PM "...no one had taught me about the Holy Ghost as a witness of truth." Yet from my experience, and without scriptures, I correctly discovered what/who the Holy Ghost is, and recognized how he confirms truth, contrary to your claim that "Without the scriptures you wouldn’t even know what the Holy Ghost is or how to recognize how he confirms truth."

Feel free to ask more questions if I haven't been clear.

Link to comment
44 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that God and his directing light is absent from people and cultures who have never been introduced to scripture or prophets?

No, I’m not suggesting this. All people have the light of Christ to help guide them, but there are serious limitations to how much guidance they receive from this. It’s really just a basic moral compass, that is easily overshadowed by false traditions, incorrect cultural norms, and the influence of the adversary. 

Link to comment
On 3/17/2023 at 8:13 PM, JLHPROF said:

The most important principle, that Christ took upon him our sins, died, and was resurrected breaking the bonds of death would be unknown without scriptural history.  Nor would we understand the necessity of the atonement without them.

We would know nothing of any importance without the words of mortal men recorded in scripture telling us of their experiences with the Father and the Son.

That's no parable.

Please re- read the original post.

The point us that IF people did not BELIEVE the accounts in scripture, they would be of no effect whatsoever.

How can you not see this with your own eyes??  It's all around you!! PEOPLE ARE NOT LEAVING RELIGION BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT READ SCRIPTURE!!!

They are leaving because they do not BELIEVE scripture.

They think they contain fables.

The only way to combat that is not to keep insisting that they "really happened" -  but show that it is the LESSONS THEY TEACH have the power to exalt mankind not because they happened, but because the PRINCIPLES THEMSELVES ARE TRUE AND CAN CHANGE LIVES.

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
56 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think I understand you just fine. The information you received prior to praying originally came from the scriptures/prophets, even though these were not cited. 

Of course. 

That is the point!

I BELIEVED THE PRINCIPLES WITHOUT CARING WHERE THE CAME FROM.  I WAS AN ATHEIST!

I BELIEVED THE PRICIPLES And I still care not one iota who wrote them.

I am a philosopher, not a librarian or historian.  IDEAS are my life.

Link to comment
10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Where did you learn that there was a God, how to pray, that there is a Holy Ghost, or that you should pray to find out which church to join?

I learned about God and the Holy Ghost from my patents which eventually leads back to the scriptures.

If anything, the scriptures and prophets have been a hindrance to me on how to pray. My prayers were stilted till I quit doing as I was taught and read and just listened to God guide me in my prayers.

Sometimes scriptures and prayers are important to our learning.  Sometimes there is so much more that God gives us directly - whether we have heard of the scriptures or not.

Edited by Rain
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Rain said:

I learned about God and the Holy Ghost from my patents which eventually leads back to the scriptures.

If anything, the scriptures and prophets have been a hindrance to me on how to pray. My prayers were stilted till I quite doing as I was taught and read and just listened to God guide me in my prayers.

Sometimes scriptures and prayers are important to our learning.  Sometimes there is so much more that God gives us directly - whether we have heard of the scriptures or not.

Were it not so, no one would take the scriptures seriously.

All the values we supposedly live by in the USA like equality and inalienable rights come directly from Chrstian values, found in the New Testament.  We are all God's children

Did the Romans have those values as they threw people to the lions for amusement? Could that even happen today anywhere in the world?  Of course not!

But are all those people in the streets demonstrating for the right to do this or that, know or care about where these values come from?  NO!

They use the values OF Christianity to condemn Christianity! 

Ask an atheist if they believe in morals. Of course they do!  They would all be in prison if they did not, for doing heinous crimes. Hitler fell when the world rose up against his "value" system.

Where do all those values for good come from?

Scriptures.

Do the street mobs acknowledge that? Absolutely not.  They are living and believing scriptures pragmatically, wanting the right of this or that while denying scripture intellectually.

Suppose we could show them that in their hearts it is a still small voice which guides those beliefs?

They will ascribe it to the evolution of society.  Yes that is true! But what force guided evolution and gave us the savior (I believe) to give us those principles?  God of course! THAT IS BELIEF!

 

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...