Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

surely a just and loving God will help people overcome the temptation to engage in this sinful practice.

Or, a just loving God wouldn't consider it sin to live in a loving committed relationship with the one you love. 

22 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

 I have a close family member who delayed going on mission because of this, overcame his struggles with the help of counseling and loving support from his family, and has now been happily married to a woman for over 10 years. They have four beautiful children together. 

I think Californiaboy used to fit in this category...until he didn't.  Let me ask you something, how many old (as in they have lived their life) gay people do you know who are active and remained active members of the church?  I am not talking about bisexuals but people who are as gay as I am straight.  How many are there out there?  I have never in my life known one single old celibate gay person in the church.  The church does not encourage marrying a woman anymore.  They learned their lesson with that one - no, a loving God doesn't always help people overcome their struggles.

22 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But what if he changed and wanted this for himself? What if he got to a place were he was no longer struggling with same-sex attraction the way he was in the past and is genuinely ready for a loving committed marriage to a woman? Would you still be against this? If so, why?

I would never encourage him to marry a woman unless he was bisexual.  Too many broken stories/homes.

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

So he's stuck? Either have different partners (unsafe) or have one partner for life (marriage) and get ex'd? I guess it could be married in spirit and have just one partner...too bad polygamy you have several partners. How safe (mentally and physically) was that? My advice to our friend Dario is to find the one permanent partner and hopefully cherish that. 

Thank you that is sweet advice of you. 🥰

But whatever i will do..or it is civil marriage or keeping it with one night stands my church may never find it out anyway. That's really important for me. Right now the people there that know me think that i am inactive (because i told them so) and i wanna keep it that way. I wanna stay a member of the church. I don't wanna be an outsider like i whas bevore. I allready feel like i'm differend. But!...at least i can say that i am a Mormon, a member of the LDS church (also on paper). That makes me equal with the rest of the Mormon members. And that makes me feel more comfortable in the church. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

If he continues to have different partners he should be ex'd too.  Just the same as if I had different partners.

Chastity is not optional.

Well...that's not on you to decide that for me anyway. Who do you think you are actually? 🎭

[Grug the Neanderthal]

56 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I have no reason to trust that you care about me. I just got very vulnerable with you and you twisted things to support your agenda. This is not good faith discussion.

I didn’t twist things at all. I asked you a couple of questions to better understand your perspective and hopefully help you to better understand mine. That’s all. I’m sorry that this offends you. 

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you that is sweet advice of you. 🥰

But whatever i will do..or it is civil marriage or keeping it with one night stands my church may never find it out anyway. That's really important for me. Right now the people there that know me think that i am inactive (because i told them so) and i wanna keep it that way. I wanna stay a member of the church. I don't wanna be an outsider like i whas bevore. I allready feel like i'm differend. But!...at least i can say that i am a Mormon, a member of the LDS church (also on paper). That makes me equal with the rest of the Mormon members. And that makes me feel more comfortable in the church. 

I hope that someday there will be a place for you in the church where you can be civilly married (at least) without hiding, and without having your membership in jeopardy.  I think we may get there.  I don't think there is any legitimate doctrinal reason or revelation which says it can't be so. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Or, a just loving God wouldn't consider it sin to live in a loving committed relationship with the one you love. 

If this relationship includes homosexual sex, then God does consider this to be a sin. 

36 minutes ago, pogi said:

Let me ask you something, how many old (as in they have lived their life) gay people do you know who are active and remained active members of the church?  I am not talking about bisexuals but people who are as gay as I am straight.  How many are there out there?  I have never in my life known one single old celibate gay person in the church.  The church does not encourage marrying a woman anymore.  They learned their lesson with that one - no, a loving God doesn't always help people overcome their struggles.

I don’t believe in using labels like gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. to permanently define who people are. 

I know people who struggle with same-sex attraction who are active at church and have chosen to live a life of celibacy and have done so for many years. I also know people who have overcome their struggles with same-sex attraction and are now happily married to a member of the opposite sex.

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I don’t believe in using labels like gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. to permanently define who people are. 

The church is fine using those labels.  Do you not use heterosexual or straight as a label for yourself at times?  While there may be some minor fluidity, people don't generally move far from their underlying orientation.  There is a reason that the Church doesn't recommend that gay people marry people of the opposite sex anymore - it's called experience. 

12 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I know people who struggle with same-sex attraction who are active at church and have chosen to live a life of celibacy and have done so for many years. I also know people who have overcome their struggles with same-sex attraction and are now happily married to a member of the opposite sex.

In other words, your answer is no, you don't know anyone who has done so for a life-time.  Me neither.  I don't think we are unique.

Edited March 15, 2023 by pogi

[Dario_M]

43 minutes ago, pogi said:

I hope that someday there will be a place for you in the church where you can be civilly married (at least) without hiding, and without having your membership in jeopardy.  I think we may get there.  I don't think there is any legitimate doctrinal reason or revelation which says it can't be so. 

Yeah indeed, i don't think there is 1 doctrine that says i may not be gay. I have looked into the Doctrine's And Covenands and nowhere have i read something about being gay is forbidden and a sin such as murder. It whas more about the first en second priesterhood and what it really means to receive those powers. Nothing about being gay at all. I have read it fast though. So maybe i have mist something. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Hello …. he’s a person …. He can hear you, and he’s trying to figure it out 

I realize this.

Repentance is a process and can take a lifetime.  Accepting our Savior and desiring to follow him is the first best step and good for him for taking it.

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Well...that's not on you to decide that for me anyway. Who do you think you are actually? 🎭

I am absolutely nobody and my opinion counts for nothing.

But every member carries the same responsibility.

D&C 20:37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

D&C 20:80 Any member of the church of Christ transgressing, or being overtaken in a fault, shall be dealt with as the scriptures direct.

 

 

[Dario_M]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I realize this.

Repentance is a process and can take a lifetime.  Accepting our Savior and desiring to follow him is the first best step and good for him for taking it.

I am absolutely nobody and my opinion counts for nothing.

But every member carries the same responsibility.

D&C 20:37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

D&C 20:80 Any member of the church of Christ transgressing, or being overtaken in a fault, shall be dealt with as the scriptures direct.

 

 

Okay but? Whas that a Doctrine or?? I don't read anything about guy people excuse e moi. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This is a discussion, not an argument. I have been completely civil with you. But if you don’t care to answer my questions or acknowledge that I can have a different perspective than you do without being "atrocious" that’s your right. 

The problem you are having on this board is that you make assumptions and then consider those assumptions to be correct to the point where you ascribe your beliefs to God himself.  For example, you said this.

Quote

If homosexual relationships are forbidden by God, which they are

See how you change the IF statement to be one of fact and used God to assert that fact?

There has been no revelation from God where God said that same sex couples should not be allowed to marry in the temple.  If you got such a revelation, please quote it.  Heck, if you have a revelation from God that says same sex relationships are a sin, then quote that one too.  If you got a revelation from God saying that the Church should not recognize gay marriage, then hey quote that one too.

Because all we have now is the personal opinion of fallible Church Leaders who have been dead wrong before about who should be allowed into the temple and marry and who should not.

It is fine to have your own personal opinion on any doctrinal subject.  It is quite wrong to assert your opinion is the same as God's when no such revelation has come.  The Church has made that mistake over and over again.

Can you see why people get annoyed at you for stating your own personal opinions and then ascribing those opinions as coming from God?  

 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I didn’t twist things at all. I asked you a couple of questions to better understand your perspective and hopefully help you to better understand mine. That’s all. I’m sorry that this offends you. 

Which is more likely though, 1-that MS is the kind of person that gets offended when someone "asks her a couple of questions to better understand her perspective and to help her better understand theirs".....

Or, 2-you responded poorly and are reaping the consequences of such a response?

(It's number 2.  Because no one gets offended by being asked questions in an attempt to create understanding)

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Okay but? Whas that a Doctrine or?? I don't read anything about guy people excuse e moi. 

Yes, the law of Chastity is doctrine for both gay and straight members.  Both can be excommunicated for having sex outside of marriage.  But gay people are in a tougher situation because they can also be excommunicated for having sex within a same sex marriage.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

The church is fine using those labels.

No, not really. It wasn’t until the last couple of years that the church said that it was okay for individuals to identify with these labels. Before this the church was strongly opposed to using these labels at all and instead used “struggling with same-sex attraction.” Which was the correct approach in my opinion. 

The whole Gay Mormon campaign where the church said that it was fine to openly identify as gay and lesbian and remain celibate was a complete disaster. Every single one of the people the church used for testimonials ended up caving and pursuing homosexual relationships in a very short amount of time. 

5 hours ago, pogi said:

In other words, your answer is no, you don't know anyone who has done so for a life-time.  Me neither.

No, in other words you didn’t ask a legitimate question. Since the church has only said that it’s okay for members to openly identify as gay or lesbian as long as they remain celibate in the past couple of years, we shouldn’t expect to know any really old members who have openly identified as being gay or lesbian their entire adult lives, but remained celibate or married someone from the opposite sex. 

Instead, I’m sure both of us know many individuals who have had struggles with same-sex attraction, who decided to live chaste lives to the end and kept their same-sex attractions to themselves. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Which is more likely though, 1-that MS is the kind of person that gets offended when someone "asks her a couple of questions to better understand her perspective and to help her better understand theirs".....

Or, 2-you responded poorly and are reaping the consequences of such a response?

(It's number 2.  Because no one gets offended by being asked questions in an attempt to create understanding)

No, it’s definitely number 1. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

There has been no revelation from God where God said that same sex couples should not be allowed to marry in the temple.  If you got such a revelation, please quote it.  Heck, if you have a revelation from God that says same sex relationships are a sin, then quote that one too.

Let’s start with these:

God disapproves of homosexual sex. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/homosexual-behavior?lang=eng

God defines celestial marriage as being between a man and a woman. 
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/marriage-celestial?lang=eng

And then when we’re done with these, we can go through dozens of official statements from prophets of God, whose calling it is to declare the will of God. And when the servants of God speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, this constitutes the mind and will of God:

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68)

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, not really. It wasn’t until the last couple of years that the church said that it was okay for individuals to identify with these labels.

Sorry bro, don’t confuse your “don’t say gay” politics with the churches position.

How can you say that the church is not ok with it when you acknowledge that they are ok with it.  I didn’t say that they have always been ok with it.  I said they are ok with it. 
 

From the church:

Are God’s promised blessings available to gay people?

Does the plan of salvation apply to gay people?
 

The use of the word ”gay” by the church is not in question.  To say “no, not really” is either disingenuous or blind.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/individuals?lang=eng

Note “gay” in the link name.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Sorry bro, don’t confuse your “don’t say gay” politics with the churches position.

How can you say that the church is not ok with it when you acknowledge that they are ok with it.  I didn’t say that they have always been ok with it.  I said they are ok with it. 
 

From the church:

Are God’s promised blessings available to gay people?

Does the plan of salvation apply to gay people?
 

The use of the word ”gay” by the church is not in question.  To say “no, not really” is either disingenuous or blind.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/individuals?lang=eng

Note “gay” in the link name.

 

 

From the link you shared it’s clear that the church doesn’t really use the word gay as a label for someone who is exclusively attracted to the same sex in the way you are suggesting:

How do I know if I’m gay?

Things to think about

 

If you’re asking yourself whether you’re gay, you’ve probably experienced same-sex attraction and are wondering how to interpret these feelings. Sexual desires are complex and shaped by many factors. While a romantic, emotional, or sexual attraction can signal a sexual orientation, you should not automatically assume that it does. Sexual desire can be fluid and changeable. If you are questioning, you should not feel pressured or rushed to reach conclusions about your sexuality.

Words mean different things to different people, and the definition of a word can change throughout our lives. What does the word gay mean to you? Is it a feeling? An identity? A lifestyle? The usage of the word gay has been changing as society and culture change. Identifying as gay may mean you experience same-sex attraction but choose not to act on these feelings. Or maybe this label describes how you express yourself emotionally, physically, sexually, or politically. If you’re wondering what someone means when they say, “I’m gay,” just ask them.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

From the link you shared it’s clear that the church doesn’t really use the word gay as a label for someone who is exclusively attracted to the same sex in the way you are suggesting:

How do I know if I’m gay?

Things to think about

 

If you’re asking yourself whether you’re gay, you’ve probably experienced same-sex attraction and are wondering how to interpret these feelings. Sexual desires are complex and shaped by many factors. While a romantic, emotional, or sexual attraction can signal a sexual orientation, you should not automatically assume that it does. Sexual desire can be fluid and changeable. If you are questioning, you should not feel pressured or rushed to reach conclusions about your sexuality.

Words mean different things to different people, and the definition of a word can change throughout our lives. What does the word gay mean to you? Is it a feeling? An identity? A lifestyle? The usage of the word gay has been changing as society and culture change. Identifying as gay may mean you experience same-sex attraction but choose not to act on these feelings. Or maybe this label describes how you express yourself emotionally, physically, sexually, or politically. If you’re wondering what someone means when they say, “I’m gay,” just ask them.

What way am I suggesting?  You never asked me.  Where does it say the church is not ok with people using it how they want?

The church seems to be ok with people using the word however they want - “just ask them”

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

What way am I suggesting?  

You said:

6 hours ago, pogi said:

The church is fine using those labels.

This is not accurate. The church doesn’t really use gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. as labels for people. Definitely not in the way you were suggesting in the comment I responded to:

7 hours ago, pogi said:

how many old (as in they have lived their life) gay people do you know who are active and remained active members of the church?  I am not talking about bisexuals but people who are as gay as I am straight. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

You said:

This is not accurate. The church doesn’t really use gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. as labels for people. Definitely not in the way you were suggesting in the comment I responded to:

I agree with Pogi and the others, and not with you on the use of same sex attraction label, because most gays don't believe it's an attraction only, they feel they've been born with it and the thought of being with the opposite sex is as bad as you probably feel about having to marry someone of the same sex. 

Think....if the church said you need to love/marry someone of the same sex as you, in an alternative existence, how would that feel? Well that's how it feels to those that are gay. But I doubt you will understand, possibly. But I do think you have a point that the church prefers to use "same sex attracted" more than using "gay". And Elder Bednar would agree with you as well when he said in a talk that there are no gay members of the church and didn't like the label as well. I feel for you Grug, once again and feel you get slightly gas lit here and on the topic of asking if Joseph Smith taught the Adam God theory, because it's very possible.  ETA: When Elder Bednar was speaking with the youth at sort of a fireside, not really a talk. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Let’s start with these:

God disapproves of homosexual sex. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/homosexual-behavior?lang=eng

God defines celestial marriage as being between a man and a woman. 
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/marriage-celestial?lang=eng

And then when we’re done with these, we can go through dozens of official statements from prophets of God, whose calling it is to declare the will of God. And when the servants of God speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, this constitutes the mind and will of God:

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68)

Those may be the position of the Church leaders.  Of course I agree with that.  We all know the opinion of Church leaders.  We all know current doctrine taught by Church leaders.  I have never claimed that God does not approve of marriage between a man and a woman.  There are scriptures that claim to be revelations from God on whether he approves of mixed oriented marriages.  

God never has said whether marriage between a man and a woman is the only form of marriage he accepts.  

But nothing you quoted said that doctrine currently taught by Church leaders concerning same sex marriage came by revelation from God.  Your opinion about Same Sex Marriage did not come from a revelation from God.  You just agree with the current opinion of Chruch leaders.  Yet you changed an IF question to one from God.  God has NEVER said if he approves of Same Sex Marriage or not.  

Edited March 16, 2023 by california boy

[Grug the Neanderthal]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I do think you have a point that the church prefers to use "same sex attracted" more than using "gay". And Elder Bednar would agree with you as well when he said in a talk that there are no gay members of the church and didn't like the label as well. I feel for you Grug, once again and feel you get slightly gas lit here and on the topic of asking if Joseph Smith taught the Adam God theory, because it's very possible.  

Yeah, it’s too bad certain individuals resort to gaslighting. I think it’s just a defense mechanism to avoid having to actually address arguments they don’t have a good answer to. I guess it could also be a way of expressing their disdain for individuals who hold views they find threatening or offensive. It is what it is. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

God has NEVER said if he approves of Same Sex Marriage or not.

Yes he has. He doesn’t approve of it and never will. The scriptures are very clear that God is not okay with homosexual sex. The scriptures are also clear that God defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. 

 

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It is what it is. 

I disagree.

It is it never what it is, it is always something else, and usually it is what it's not.

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by mfbukowski