Mediumship or Spirit Channeling

[Senator]

What is the church's position?  I'm not finding much online.

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Senator said:

What is the church's position?  I'm not finding much online.

Are you watching the Netflix series about Tyler Henry too?

I just started watching it last night and it definitely raises questions. I've never seen anything quite like it in how consistently spot on he is.  He seems to have a very genuine spirit about him.  I am always super cautious with buying into this stuff wholesale as there are so many frauds out there, but this kid seems legit.   I can't explain what I am seeing unless there is some big behind the scenes scam going on.   The comfort and healing that he provides is really touching.     

Edited February 16, 2023 by pogi

[Calm]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Are you watching the Netflix series about Tyler Henry too?

I just started watching it last night and it definitely raises questions. I've never seen anything quite like it.  I am always super cautious with buying into this stuff wholesale as there are so many frauds out there, but this kid seems legit.  I can't explain what I am seeing unless there is some big behind the scenes scam going on.  The comfort and healing that he provides is really touching.     

In what way does he seem legit?

[The Nehor]

It doesn’t have one.

Here, have a thing:

Warning: Clip contains profanity and psychics being humiliated in scenes that are “very funny”.

 

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Senator said:

What is the church's position?  I'm not finding much online.

 

I am reminded me of Elder Ballard's October 2017 General Conference talk which included the following counsel:

 

Quote

 

We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. We must be watchful and heed the counsel of Jesus to His disciples as He answered these questions: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [and I add woman] deceive you.”9

 

Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders.

• Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.
• Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.10
• Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
• Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.

In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.

 

An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”11

 

The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”12

 

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.

___________

9. Matthew 24:3–4.

10. See Doctrine and Covenants 26:2; 28:13; 43:6–7.

11. Church spokesman Eric Hawkins, Sept. 2016.

12. Handbook 2, 21.3.6.

 

 

See also this article from LDS Daily: Gospel Q&A: What Is the Church’s Stance on Psychics, Mediums, Astrology, and Tarot Cards?

 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

doesn’t have one.

They along with Tarot Cards, ouija boards and fortune telling had a bad reputation in my youth in California and Illinois, tools of the devil and all.  I don’t know if there was anything official about staying away from them.  Haven’t seen anything about them in a long time. 
 

Did a search on church’s website for ouija boards and while I was directed to the Topical Guide page Evil Spirits, the only real hit were nonEnglish.  Looks like there was a warning in the olde Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2 about them.  Don’t recognize the other words, so might have something about trying to contact the dead. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

In what way does he seem legit?

There is kind of an ineffable quality of genuineness and humble confidence about him.  He seems a lot more clear and specific with his impressions, with near perfect precision.  It is not like he is seeking/fishing, like I have seen with other mediums, he speaks as if he already knows the other person will identify with what he is saying.   In some ways, his spirit kind of reminds me of the Dalai Llama in how he is no respecter of persons.  In other words, even though he is just a young kid, he is not intimidated by incredibly powerful people and celebrity status.  He approaches the rich and powerful with the same genuine spirit and quality that he treats the lower-class minority mother who lost her child and is seeking for answers in solving the open case.  Maybe it is his youth and innocence (he looks like a young Macaulay Culkin) looking face, but his character seems genuine. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

Anytime you open yourself up to a spirit other than your own or the Lord's you are playing with fire.  Period.

[Calm]

Here is the handbook quote mentioned in the article:

Quote

38.6.12

The Occult

“That which is of God is light” (Doctrine and Covenants 50:24). The occult focuses on darkness and leads to deception. It destroys faith in Christ.

The occult includes Satan worship. It also includes mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Such activities include (but are not limited to) fortune-telling, curses, and healing practices that are imitations of the priesthood power of God (see Moroni 7:11–17).

Church members should not engage in any form of Satan worship or participate in any way with the occult. They should not focus on such darkness in conversations or in Church meetings.

The newsroom says this part was updated recently:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/handbook-update-july-2020?imageView=General-Handbook_Cover.jpg

[Calm]

This is from the 2010 handbook, page 196

Quote

21.4.8 Occult Affiliation
Church members should not engage in any form of Satan worship or affiliate in any way with the occult. “Such activities are among the works of darkness spoken of in the scriptures. They are designed to destroy one’s faith in Christ, and will jeopardize the salvation of those who knowingly promote this wickedness. These things should not be pursued as games, be topics in Church meetings, or be delved into in private, personal conversations” (First Presidency letter, Sept. 18, 1991).
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/08702_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Of course, most who engage in such probably don’t connect it with Satan.  “Occult” is a pretty broad label.   There are plenty who would label our priesthood blessings as “occult”.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

It’s not my thing for sure. I can’t imagine a church activity involving an ouija board being approved, like girls camp.  Our girls got hollered at for face cards five years ago from our very staunch b/w girls camp president . Fortunately our stake president was in attendance and he put her in her place. That said I have no doubt that a Ouija board activity would not have flown. Fwiw. Imo. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by MustardSeed

[LoudmouthMormon]

When folks are talking about fringe supernatural things, I always like to point something out: The Ouija Board is currently mass-produced by the Hasbro toy company, makers of Transformers and My Little Pony.

Quote

Gather around the board, if you dare, and unlock secrets from a mysterious and mystifying world. You have questions, and the spirit world has answers and the uncanny Ouija board is your way to get them. What DO you want to know? Grab a friend and ask the board a question, using the included planchette, but be patient and concentrate because the spirits can't be rushed. Handle the Ouija board with respect, and it won't disappoint you! Hasbro gaming, and Ouija are trademarks of Hasbro.

It seems like every year I point this out, there are fewer and fewer angry people who opine passionately about the dangers of playing with occultic forces we don't understand.  Happy to see your response @JLHPROF!  Keep the fire burning!

 

Another fun story: 

I lived in a ward where the Relief Society president was a practicing phrenologist.  When visiting her socially once, she gave my wife and I a half-hearted sales pitch about how some early church leaders swore there was something to it.

 

My practical opinion on the subject:   If you're looking to dabble in hidden unseen powers, ominous or otherwise, you don't really need to spend any money on it.  Wiccanism is mostly free - just go find a Wiccan, and buy her lunch.  I suggest the 'dancing in meadows casting white magic spells' kind, and not the 'gloomy goth' kind, just because the 1st gets you out in nature more, and the 2nd tends to spread angsty depression.  Just keep in mind that whatever you're doing with this stuff, you're looking in directions away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Either God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so anyone who hearkens to His word can have everlasting life, or your deceased Aunt Martha wants you to be careful of dating that Scorpio with bad skin.  Pick one.

Edited February 16, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Senator]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you watching the Netflix series about Tyler Henry too?

    

Actually no, but a family member is trying her hand at it.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Senator said:

Actually no, but a family member is trying her hand at it.

Energy healing of the Julie Rowe variety comes very close imo, the idea being for some that the spirits surrounding one causing health and other issues, may be dead ancestors.  I can’t remember if they are just claimed to be seen and released or actually communicated with.  But the purpose is different, as one is for healing and the other is intended for communication. 

[Pyreaux]

Divination methods and devices are technically legal if distinguished from witchcraft, priestcraft, and pagan entities. We believe in visions, interpreting dreams, prophesying with astrological signs, and certain divining devices like seer stones (crystals) and lots (dice). But its culturally taboo now than in the early church. Most particular methods counseled against, mostly from the local level are variant spirit summoning, particularly the Ouija because when summoning a random spirit, you risk inviting evil spirits, and you could have trouble getting rid of them without a priest rededicating the building. I believe its can be morally okay, but I would still leave it to those born with that spiritual gift, as I don't have the necessary experience to do it safely. We fear that even when summoning certain good spirits, a wicked imposter could appear, and so you'd need the gift to discern spirits.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Energy healing of the Julie Rowe variety comes very close imo, the idea being for some that the spirits surrounding one causing health and other issues, may be dead ancestors.  I can’t remember if they are just claimed to be seen and released or actually communicated with.  But the purpose is different, as one is for healing and the other is intended for communication. 

Both are peddled for profit.

[OGHoosier]

19 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Divination methods and devices are technically legal if distinguished from witchcraft, priestcraft, and pagan entities. We believe in visions, interpreting dreams, prophesying with astrological signs, and certain divining devices like seer stones (crystals) and lots (dice). But its culturally taboo now than in the early church. Most particular methods counseled against, mostly from the local level are variant spirit summoning, particularly the Ouija because when summoning a random spirit, you risk inviting evil spirits, and you could have trouble getting rid of them without a priest rededicating the building. I believe its can be morally okay, but I would still leave it to those born with that spiritual gift, as I don't have the necessary experience to do it safely. We fear that even when summoning certain good spirits, a wicked imposter could appear, and so you'd need the gift to discern spirits.

Back in the first century they picked a member of the Quorum of the Twelve via lots (Acts 1:15-26). 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

When folks are talking about fringe supernatural things, I always like to point something out: The Ouija Board is currently mass-produced by the Hasbro toy company, makers of Transformers and My Little Pony.

It seems like every year I point this out, there are fewer and fewer angry people who opine passionately about the dangers of playing with occultic forces we don't understand.  Happy to see your response @JLHPROF!  Keep the fire burning!

 

Another fun story: 

I lived in a ward where the Relief Society president was a practicing phrenologist.  When visiting her socially once, she gave my wife and I a half-hearted sales pitch about how some early church leaders swore there was something to it.

 

My practical opinion on the subject:   If you're looking to dabble in hidden unseen powers, ominous or otherwise, you don't really need to spend any money on it.  Wiccanism is mostly free - just go find a Wiccan, and buy her lunch.  I suggest the 'dancing in meadows casting white magic spells' kind, and not the 'gloomy goth' kind, just because the 1st gets you out in nature more, and the 2nd tends to spread angsty depression.  Just keep in mind that whatever you're doing with this stuff, you're looking in directions away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   Either God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so anyone who hearkens to His word can have everlasting life, or your deceased Aunt Martha wants you to be careful of dating that Scorpio with bad skin.  Pick one.

There's a modern day trend to assume all incidents of "demon possession" should be labelled as mental illness.  Even among faithful believers we often assume we can have the spirit of the Lord, but we rarely assume anyone is influenced by other spirits.
It's much more common than we care to believe.
I happen to believe in scriptures where even the Savior says evil spirits are very real and can be cast out.

[Peacefully]

What about Water Witches? 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Senator said:

What is the church's position?  I'm not finding much online.

From the Handbook: 38. Church Policies and Guidelines (churchofjesuschrist.org)

38.6.12

The Occult

“That which is of God is light” (Doctrine and Covenants 50:24). The occult focuses on darkness and leads to deception. It destroys faith in Christ.

The occult includes Satan worship. It also includes mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Such activities include (but are not limited to) fortune-telling, curses, and healing practices that are imitations of the priesthood power of God (see Moroni 7:11–17).

Church members should not engage in any form of Satan worship or participate in any way with the occult. They should not focus on such darkness in conversations or in Church meetings.

I would count mediumship and spirit channeling as mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even good things such as comfort, relief, guidance and healing are out of harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ when they do not lead to a spiritual witness of Christ and the restoration or otherwise contribute to the building Zion. I attribute the light of Christ to all good motivations and discoveries that help people in all areas of temporal salvation. But the light of Christ, once one experiences it, can be imitated or manipulated, intentionally or ignorantly, to contra-gospel ends, just as truth can be (e.g., D&C 93:38-39).

[Senator]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There's a modern day trend to assume all incidents of "demon possession" should be labelled as mental illness.  Even among faithful believers we often assume we can have the spirit of the Lord, but we rarely assume anyone is influenced by other spirits.
It's much more common than we care to believe.
I happen to believe in scriptures where even the Savior says evil spirits are very real and can be cast out.

I'll take today's rationality over yesteryear's superstitious witch burnings any day.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There's a modern day trend to assume all incidents of "demon possession" should be labelled as mental illness.  Even among faithful believers we often assume we can have the spirit of the Lord, but we rarely assume anyone is influenced by other spirits.
It's much more common than we care to believe.
I happen to believe in scriptures where even the Savior says evil spirits are very real and can be cast out.

When they found that evil spirits apparently respond better to modern medicine and therapy than to exorcism, you are right - that started a new trend. 

What are the symptoms of true demonic possession (foaming at the mouth, lunatic behavior, etc?) and how can you decipher it from mental illness?  

If being a medium is a high risk factor for demonic possession, then why don't we see more full-on demonic possessed mediums foaming at the mouth and behaving like wild lunatics?

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by pogi

[Pyreaux]

58 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Back in the first century they picked a member of the Quorum of the Twelve via lots (Acts 1:15-26). 

Exactly.

They also practiced Astrology, prophecy with astrological signs and wonders; Magi in Matthew 2:1–12, Jesus in Luke 21:25. The patriarchs and anointed kings also practiced Divination; Joseph in Genesis 44:5, 15; Saul in 1 Sam 14:41. Only the Israelites after the sin of the golden calf are forbidden to divine by a new law from Moses. Until King Saul forbid non-Israelite, as the "witch of Endor" is the only spirit medium in Israel until Saul's law. She was a Midianite. Patriarchs, Non-Israelites, any Israelite initiated reborn of God instead of Israel like Kings and Christians didn't fall under Israel's curse of the Mosaic law against divination.

There is also Alchemy in Leah's love mandrakes Genesis 30:16, in the fish potion of Tobias in Tobit 8:3.

 

[SkyRock]

There is a spiritual world.  In it are the dead and evil spirits.   There may be a whole lot more. 

We as humans do not understand fully our bodies and the world. 

I heard a story of an expert on the science of learning who said that online learning is worse than in person, even if the student is extremely diligent, because "there is just something about being in the same room as the teacher."

There is a group of Buddhist monks, that train for decades for a test.   The test is simple: go up in winter to a certain valley by a frozen body of water.   Cut into the ice.  Take off all clothes.   Dip blanket in freezing water.   Put frozen blanket around person.   The monk must warm up the blanket until dry.   Repeat 6 more times.   Untrained people would freeze to death in minutes.  Doctors have seen this test conducted and verified that the monks can do it.  Is that magic?  Or just training and tapping into some other force. 

Near death experiences are almost identical.   

Drug trips seem to tap into something. 

Some forms of meditation seem to connect into something "more".

I read an article in the Atlantic on the VA using reiki with great success to heal PTSD and other issues.  

Some Christians, including LDS, have made a study of the Bible as to prophecy and how the stars might be signs according to prophecy, especially but not only Revelations.  

Robert Wright's book,  "Why Buddhism is True", discusses the practical application of Buddhist practices that work.   It isn't about the truth of Buddhist religion.

Every acupuncture and much of traditional Chinese medicine works and acupuncture points do align with various nerves and connections. 

And so forth. 

Some things, like Satanism and magic appear to be completely wrong.   Will practicing Buddhist style meditation interfere with one's connection to the Holy Ghost?  I really doubt it.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Senator said:

I'll take today's rationality over yesteryear's superstitious witch burnings any day.

Witchburning didn't really become a thing until the Protestant Reformation. I suspect it took off as a chest-beating exercise between rival faiths to show off their satan-smashing power. Where were all the witches in the rest of Catholic history? Did Martin Luther open the gates of hell and let them out?