Faith

[Pyreaux]

16 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m confused.  My understanding was that the retention rate for converts was low. 

My understanding is 75% of members are converts, other than those who simply went inactive, those whose faith crisis is what lead them to the church, via revelation, one would think they would be less likely have another crisis, at least over a member born in the church but not converted to it, can be more of a timebomb I'd think.

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

My understanding is 75% of members are converts

Have a reference for this?  

Edited February 19, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Have a reference for this?  

Off the top of my head, I recall the 2015 update of the 2004 Ford Interfaith group article.

Interfaith Insights & Inspirations

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Quick Facts & Interesting Tidbits

On this day 175 years ago, September 14, 1840, Joseph Smith Sr. died; his son was the LDS Church's founding prophet.

The church has since grown nearly a thousand fold -- enjoy the following about this now thriving church!

 

OVERVIEW

·   Named “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, nicknames are “LDS” or “Mormon”

·   Not claiming standing from age-old descent, from councils, or from just reading the Bible, the LDS Church is rather unique in declaring that the Lord restored the full original Christian church, guided once again through prophetic revelation

·   Core focus is that Jesus Christ & His teachings bring happiness in this life & exaltation in the next with your family

 

HISTORY

·   In 1820 14-yr-old Joseph Smith proclaimed a vision of God & Christ foretelling the long-prophesied full Christian restoration

·   Organized in upstate New York in 1830, the church moved to near Cleveland, then near Kansas City, & then to rural Illinois

·   Fleeing violent Illinois mobs, Mormons began their subzero February escape across a frozen Mississippi River in 1846

·   Though 4-6,000 died en route, 70,000 pre-railroad Mormon pioneers settled Salt Lake City & 600 other Western communities

 

SALT LAKE CITY

·   Temple Square, laid out just four days after 1847 pioneer arrival, has 5 million annual visitors, more than the Grand Canyon

·   The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the world’s most famous, broadcast on 1500 stations, started 29 days after pioneer arrival

·   The iconic granite Salt Lake Temple took 40 years to build; there are now 148 temples worldwide with another 25 underway

·   Salt Lake City is home of the world's largest genealogy database, it can be visited online or at 4,800 libraries

 

FAMILY

·   LDS believe that marriage & family can be eternal & are central to God's plan for our happiness

·   On Monday nights, LDS worldwide hold "Family Home Evening", a program started 100 years ago in 1915

·   A Pew survey showed LDS as the most married & least divorced Christian U.S. sect after Anabaptists (Amish, etc.)

·   Utah is the single most married, largest family, largest house, highest birth rate, most kids with both parents, lowest illegitimacy, lowest births into poverty, lowest child poverty, & youngest (average age 29.2 vs. 38.9 for Michigan) of all 50 states

 

HEALTH CODE

·   Believing an 1833 health code was inspired, LDS avoid alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs, coffee, & tea (herbal tea is ok)

·   This health code also teaches grains (especially wheat), fresh fruits & vegetables, & sparing use of meat

·   A 2008 UCLA study of 26,000 people showed that active LDS live longer than white Americans, men by 9.8 years & women by 5.6 years; the differences were even much greater for LDS who better lived various LDS tenets

·   Utah is 50th in smoking, tobacco, marijuana, alcohol, drunk driving, heart attacks, hypertension, high cholesterol, cancer deaths, Cesareans, sick days, child obesity, youth inactivity, & 49th in adult inactivity, diabetes, heart disease, strokes, & ER visits

 

EDUCATION

·   Some 397,000 high school students attend a daily gospel study class, usually starting 6-6:30AM

·   Some 347,000 college students attend a weekly Institute of Religion class at 2,500 locations worldwide

·   Utah is 50th in spending per pupil (31st in teacher salary), but rates above average in most educational metrics

·   New in 2001, LDS in 63 developing countries can get low-rate college loans; over 60,000 loans have been made

 

BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY, PROVO UTAH

·   BYU Provo, with 30,000 students, is America's largest single-campus private college

·   From 110+ countries, 70% of students are bilingual, 32% study one of 55 languages, & 2,000 study abroad in 55 countries

·   BYU’s unparalleled Independent Study program offers over 550 courses to 130,000 students in over 90 countries

·   BYU national championships in the last 20 years include: five in rugby (including the last four), three in men’s volleyball, four in women’s cross country, four in combined racquetball, nine in women’s racquetball, & 20 in ballroom dance

·   College rankings vary by source & year; “cherry-picking” some of the best recent year BYU rankings:

+ Sometimes rated #1 in accounting, rate of student acceptees that enroll, students who pray, & in being “stone cold sober”

+ For total students going on to graduate school: #11 for medical, #6 for law, #5 for doctorates, & #1 for dental school

 

WOMEN

·   Organized in 1842, the "Relief Society", the world’s largest women's organization, meets every Sunday & has many activities

·   Women preach from the pulpit & serve in various positions, from teachers to organization presidents

·   Wyoming was first to allow women to vote; Utah was second, two months later, in 1870

·   America's first female state senator, first female mayor with all-female city council, first female U.S. senator without any family connection (from Florida), & first black Republican congresswoman, were all LDS

 

ACTIVE CONGREGATIONS

·   Sunday services entail a three-hour block of three meetings; nearly 30,000 congregations exist worldwide

·   Everyone has a calling in highly vibrant LDS organizations; surveys shows exceptionally high LDS congregational involvement

·   Most churches have an indoor basketball gymnasium with a theater stage to host a wide variety of meals & activities

·   Teens have the most fun: weekly activities, sports, dances, service projects, youth conferences, weeklong camps, etc.

 

FINANCES

·   Members tithe 10%; a Penn study of 2600 LDS said 88% of active LDS tithe fully compared to 4% of American Christians

·   Local clergy (no career positions) & all other congregational positions are unpaid (janitorial is unpaid, maintenance is hired)

·   The paid positions in Salt Lake are known as low-salaried; funds are frugally used & tightly audited, the church has no debt

 

MEMBER ASSISTANCE

·   Members receive monthly visits from a “home teacher”, a friend who is available for any help you may ask for

·   Customarily, hands show up when moving, dinners show up when sick, & visitors show up when hospitalized

·   The church runs 115 employment centers, 101 home food storage centers, 82 counselling centers, & 42 thrift stores

·   LDS in need obtain church welfare in the form of groceries and/or bills paid; LDS donate monthly to this welfare program

·   The church has a few hundred farms either for investments or for its welfare program; many LDS donate time on welfare farms

 

GIVING BACK

·   A Penn study said active LDS give nine times as many volunteer hours as other Americans, 57% of it for religious purposes

·   Started in 1998, “Mormon Helping Hands” is a program where local members work on various public service projects

   + Some large one-day efforts: 65,000 Californians in 2014, 100,000 Africans in 2007, & 120,000 Brazilians in 2011

·   Worldwide there are 10,000 unpaid welfare/humanitarian service missionaries, these are often retired couples

·   An analysis of 2012 tax returns shows Utahns gave away 6.6% of their income, a median of $6,182; no other state was close

 

HUMANITARIAN AID

·   Humanitarian aid is given to people of all faiths; the church pays all overhead so that donations go 100% to recipients

·   The church provides rapid emergency relief to disasters worldwide, usually responding to 100-150 disasters annually

·   The church drilled wells & created water systems for many millions of people in many thousands of villages worldwide

·   Large-scale worldwide medical aid includes giving immunizations, wheelchairs, vision care, & neonatal healthcare training

 

SHARING CHRIST’S GOSPEL

·   Over 85,000 missionaries serve in 160+ countries; over a quarter are female; most are college-age but some are retired couples

·   Unpaid & paying their own way, most work 65 hours a week for 18-24 months, often learning one of over 50 different languages

·   Polynesians are the most LDS (~15%), Africa has the highest growth rate, & Latin America has the most growth (49% of total)

·   The church reached one million in 1947, membership now exceeds 15.5 million; over 5,000 join weekly worldwide

 

MEMBERSHIP DISTRIBUTION

·   Some 2014 year end LDS memberships:

   + U.S. 6,466k – by Region: East 287k (0.45%), Midwest 442k (0.65%), South 1,049k (0.93%), West 4,688k (6.2%)

   + Other English Countries: New Zealand 110k, Australia 144k, U.K. 186k, Canada 192k

   + Latin America: Ecuador 229k, Guatemala 255k, Argentina 432k, Peru 557k, Chile 579k, Brazil 1,289k, Mexico 1,368k

   + Other: South Africa 61k, Ghana 62k, Tonga 63k, Samoa 76k, Korea 87k, Japan 128k, Nigeria 130k, Philippines 711k

   + By World Region: Africa 460k, Europe 504k, Oceania 520k, Asia 1,087k, Latin America 6,108k, U.S./Canada 6,658k

·   Each continent’s country with the highest rate of LDS: United States, Chile, Portugal, Cape Verde, Philippines, & Tonga

·   Worldwide about 60% are not Caucasian; about 70% are converts, which is a bit unusual for a faith

 

PRESIDENTIAL LDS TIDBITS

·   Appreciating Millard Fillmore’s treatment of the LDS, Utah named its first capital city “Fillmore” & its county “Millard”

·   Abraham Lincoln helped the LDS obtain the Nauvoo Charter; he checked out the Book of Mormon from the Library of Congress

·   Warren G. Harding once asked for & received a nighttime LDS priesthood blessing for his sick wife

·   Lyndon B. Johnson was extraordinarily close to LDS President David O. McKay, often calling him; of the three American flags from his inauguration, he kept one, gave the second to his vice president, & the third to President McKay

 

GRAB BAG

·   The U.K. had 44,000 converts by 1851 (12,000 Utahns in 1851, many from the U.K.); by 1869 32,000 had emigrated

·   Recent news articles have said the church is planning a city of 500,000 near Orlando on some of its 770,000 Florida acres

·   Utah is first in computers, financial literacy, church attendance, & birthplace of leading scientists (including TV’s inventor)

·   LDS Scouting started in 1913, 23% of Boy Scouts are LDS; Utah leads all states in total (not just rate of) Eagle Scouts

·   Hawaii's #1 tourist site, the Polynesian Cultural Center, hires BYU Hawaii college students from many Polynesian islands

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

2015 update of the 2004 Ford Interfaith group article.

Where did you find this?  I am curious about the background to it. 

[manol]

Last Friday Bernard Gui wrote:

On 2/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Do you believe Christ, in person, told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men/women that he is? If so, how do you come to this belief while rejecting his other words to them?

To which I wrote back:

On 2/17/2023 at 11:47 AM, manol said:

Before I reply, just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you, can you tell me which of Christ's other words to the Nephites I'm rejecting? 

Bernard, I haven't heard back from you with the clarification I was asking for, so I'll just go ahead and reply to the part that was clear to me:

On 2/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Do you believe Christ, in person, told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men/women that he is?

I don't know whether the Book of Mormon is historically accurate and if so to what extent, but in my opinion it has many great teachings which stand on their own merits.  The teaching that we should "be the same manner of men [and women] that Christ is" is one such teaching. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, manol said:

Last Friday Bernard Gui wrote:

To which I wrote back:

Bernard, I haven't heard back from you with the clarification I was asking for, so I'll just go ahead and reply to the part that was clear to me:

I don't know whether the Book of Mormon is historically accurate and if so to what extent, but in my opinion it has many great teachings which stand on their own merits.  The teaching that we should "be the same manner of men [and women] that Christ is" is one such teaching. 

 

Yes, I have been thinking about my response. I could go over some of your posts looking for examples, but for what purpose? It’s curious to me that you have long left the Church but continue to speak enthusiastically on some topics - as if you were still an active member, even admonishing and encouraging those who are members, but quite dismissive on other matters. The ambivalence is interesting. But thank you for explaining that you pick and choose what you agree or disagree with in the Book of Mormon. 

When Jesus said we should be like him, do you agree with his teachings on what we must do to achieve that? I’m referring to his gospel that he lays out in great detail in the Book of Mormon…faith in him, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, baptism of fire by the Holy Ghost, partaking of the sacrament, and enduring in faith to the end? He said this was the only way we can be like him. Is this a great teaching that has merit? If not, why not?

Edited February 20, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, I have been thinking about my response. I could go over some of your posts looking for examples, but for what purpose? It’s curious to me that you have long left the Church but continue to speak enthusiastically on some topics - as if you were still an active member, even admonishing and encouraging those who are members, but quite dismissive on other matters. The ambivalence is interesting. But thank you for explaining that you pick and choose what you agree or disagree with in the Book of Mormon.

Wel uhm... he is not the only one that does that. I also do that. And what is the problem with doing that anyway?

But The book of Mormon is an interesting book for sure. I have read the whole thing. With the Bible i never came so far. 

But i don't believe everything  that the Book of Mormon is telling me. No.

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

 

When Jesus said we should be like him, do you agree with his teachings on what we must do to achieve that?

But we will never be like him because we are HUMANS. Eveyone. Also YOU. Dang why are some later-day-saints don't get that? 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

I’m referring to his gospel that he lays out in great detail in the Book of Mormon…faith in him, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, baptism of fire by the Holy Ghost, partaking of the sacrament, and enduring in faith to the end? He said this was the only way we can be like him. Is this a great teaching that has merit? If not, why not?

Maybe if we are in heaven oneday we will be like him. But as long as we are here on earth we are nothing like him. Nobody. If you really think that then you simpely just believe a lie. This world is clearly not made for saints.🎭

You can think that BECAUSE you have your white garments on and other people don't have those garments on their body that you are differend and better then those other people. But it makes no differends i find. The only thing what is more different about you now is that you will judge other people more easaly. Because they are not standing on the same standaards as you are. 

Have a nice day My Lord Gui. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, I have been thinking about my response. I could go over some of your posts looking for examples, but for what purpose? It’s curious to me that you have long left the Church but continue to speak enthusiastically on some topics - as if you were still an active member, even admonishing and encouraging those who are members, but quite dismissive on other matters. The ambivalence is interesting. But thank you for explaining that you pick and choose what you agree or disagree with in the Book of Mormon. 

Thank you for writing back.  And yeah I'm even worse than a cafeteria Mormon... I'm a cafeteria ex-Mormon!

I may have been out of line about the word of wisdom, but I got the impression that rodheadlee was feeling condemned by it and wanted him to know that that's not how I see it, even though my vote counts for absolutely nothing, and even though he almost certain disagrees strongly with me about it.  The worth of souls is great (got that one from the D&C!), imo too great in this case for me to keep my mouth shut... but maybe spouting off like I did was immature on my part. 

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When Jesus said we should be like him, do you agree with his teachings on what we must do to achieve that? I’m referring to his gospel that he lays out in great detail in the Book of Mormon…faith in him, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, baptism of fire by the Holy Ghost, partaking of the sacrament, and enduring in faith to the end? He said this was the only way we can be like him. Is this a great teaching that has merit? If not, why not?

Imo the Gospel of Jesus Christ is primarily his teachings about who and what we are to be, such as:  Love God completely and without reservation; love your neighbor as yourself; judge not; forgive without keeping score; love your enemies and do good to all; give without expectation; seek first the kingdom of God; be the same manner of men and women as Christ; love one another as Christ loves us; Christ is the Vine and we are the branches; etc. 

Regarding repentance:  Our behavior arises from our thoughts; or to put it another way, our thoughts are CAUSE and our behavior is EFFECT. When our mood tells us that we have chosen wrongly, it is because we have perceived (judged) someone or something wrongly.  Imo we need to think honestly about what we have thought that God would not have us think, and what we have not thought that God would have us think.  From there we can search sincerely for what actions we have done, and/or what we have left undone, and correct our behavior accordingly.  So imo repentance is to change our minds to think like God's to the extent we are able to.

I am not convinced the church's ordinances in and of themselves have power beyond that which naturally arises from following the teachings they symbolize and/or convey.  For instance, baptism symbolizes the death of the person we were and our rebirth as a new creature in Christ, washed clean, and THAT concept is something I absolutely believe in.  But is baptism the ordinance in and of itself essential to enter the Kingdom of God?  Apparently not, because if it were, then the Church would be doing baptisms for the dead on behalf of children who died before the age of accountability. 

Personally I do not believe the Light of Christ is "less than" the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  I believe they are of the same Source and are not in competition with one another.  That being said, imo the ordinance of conferring the Gift of the Holy Ghost is BRILLIANT because it legitimizes for every church member their having direct access to God the Holy Spirit. 

Imo the Baptism of Fire is a topic beyond the scope of this reply, but yes it is something I believe in.  I do not think it is synonymous with the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost following baptism.

The sacrament - oboy.  Once again, imo the ordinance, or the act of partaking in and of itself, is not the critical factor; rather, it is the incredible principles being taught.  For now let's just look at the prayers themselves:

In the blessing on the bread, we witness that we are WILLING to do three things:  Take upon us the name of Christ; always remember him; and keep his commandments.  Imo this is all about where our hearts and minds and intentions are - this is what we are WILLING to do. 

In the blessing on the water, we witness what we ARE DOING:  We do always remember him.  We are not witnessing that we keep his commandments, because we'd all be lying!!  But the level we are supposed to be at is that we "do always remember" Christ.  My interpretation is that at a minimum we always have a program running in the background, or we always have a tab open (so to speak), and that program or that tab is "Jesus Christ".

When we are at the level we "witness" to in the blessings on the bread and water, we "may have his spirit to be with [us]".  The Holy Spirit does not dwell in unholy temples, so what does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit imply about who and what we are? 

"Enduring to the end" sounds frightening and stagnant and dreadful to me.  For now at least I've put the concept of "enduring to the end" on the back burner... not that I have any intention of bailing out, but I do not expect it to be sheer unabated misery.  I haven't figured out how to reconcile the words "enduring to the end" with a loving Father we have no need to fear, nor with a Savior whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light, nor with my experience of both.  I expect to always have the option of choosing light over darkness regardless of the external circumstances, and expect that if I do, the light will have its effects. 

But I could be wrong.

As for the specifics of exactly what it means to be "the same manner of man or woman as Christ", I'm still working on that.   I think it has to do with the Vine being within the branch, rather than the branch becoming the Vine. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by manol

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, manol said:

Thank you for writing back.  And yeah I'm even worse than a cafeteria Mormon... I'm a cafeteria ex-Mormon!

I may have been out of line about the word of wisdom, but I got the impression that rodheadlee was feeling condemned by it and wanted him to know that that's not how I see it, even though my vote counts for absolutely nothing, and even though he almost certain disagrees strongly with me about it.  The worth of souls is great (got that one from the D&C!), imo too great in this case for me to keep my mouth shut... but maybe spouting off like I did was immature on my part. 

Imo the Gospel of Jesus Christ is primarily his teachings about who and what we are to be, such as:  Love God completely and without reservation; love your neighbor as yourself; judge not; forgive without keeping score; love your enemies and do good to all; give without expectation; seek first the kingdom of God; be the same manner of men and women as Christ; love one another as Christ loves us; Christ is the Vine and we are the branches; etc. 

Regarding repentance:  Our behavior arises from our thoughts; or to put it another way, our thoughts are CAUSE and our behavior is EFFECT. When our mood tells us that we have chosen wrongly, it is because we have perceived (judged) someone or something wrongly.  Imo we need to think honestly about what we have thought that God would not have us think, and what we have not thought that God would have us think.  From there we can search sincerely for what actions we have done, and/or what we have left undone, and correct our behavior accordingly.  So imo repentance is to change our minds to think like God's to the extent we are able to.

I am not convinced the church's ordinances in and of themselves have power beyond that which naturally arises from following the teachings they symbolize and/or convey.  For instance, baptism symbolizes the death of the person we were and our rebirth as a new creature in Christ, washed clean, and THAT concept is something I absolutely believe in.  But is baptism the ordinance in and of itself essential to enter the Kingdom of God?  Apparently not, because if it were, then the Church would be doing baptisms for the dead on behalf of children who died before the age of accountability. 

Personally I do not believe the Light of Christ is "less than" the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  I believe they are of the same Source and are not in competition with one another.  That being said, imo the ordinance of conferring the Gift of the Holy Ghost is BRILLIANT because it legitimizes for every church member their having direct access to God the Holy Spirit. 

Imo the Baptism of Fire is a topic beyond the scope of this reply, but yes it is something I believe in.  I do not think it is synonymous with the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost following baptism.

The sacrament - oboy.  Once again, imo the ordinance, or the act of partaking in and of itself, is not the critical factor; rather, it is the incredible principles being taught.  For now let's just look at the prayers themselves:

In the blessing on the bread, we witness that we are WILLING to do three things:  Take upon us the name of Christ; always remember him; and keep his commandments.  Imo this is all about where our hearts and minds and intentions are - this is what we are WILLING to do. 

In the blessing on the water, we witness what we ARE DOING:  We do always remember him.  We are not witnessing that we keep his commandments, because we'd all be lying!!  But the level we are supposed to be at is that we "do always remember" Christ.  My interpretation is that at a minimum we always have a program running in the background, or we always have a tab open (so to speak), and that program or that tab is "Jesus Christ".

When we are at the level we "witness" to in the blessings on the bread and water, we "may have his spirit to be with [us]".  The Holy Spirit does not dwell in unholy temples, so what does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit imply about who and what we are? 

"Enduring to the end" sounds frightening and stagnant and dreadful to me.  For now at least I've put the concept of "enduring to the end" on the back burner... not that I have any intention of bailing out, but I do not expect it to be sheer unabated misery.  I haven't figured out how to reconcile the words "enduring to the end" with a loving Father we have no need to fear, nor with a Savior whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light, nor with my experience of both.  I expect to always have the option of choosing light over darkness regardless of the external circumstances, and expect that if I do, the light will have its effects. 

But I could be wrong.

As for the specifics of exactly what it means to be "the same manner of man or woman as Christ", I'm still working on that.   I think it has to do with the Vine being within the branch, rather than the branch becoming the Vine. 

Thank you for the explanation of how and why one can embrace some principles of the Lord’s gospel and then use them to diminish or reject other of his teachings. This eclectic approach to the gospel seems inconsistent. 

The repeated use of the pronoun “we” is fascinating. 
 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for the explanation of how and why one can embrace some principles of the Lord’s gospel and then use them to diminish or reject other of his teachings. This eclectic approach to the gospel seems inconsistent. 

That's a much milder reply than I expected.  I caught the sarcasm, and it's okay.  And "seems inconsistent" is a fair assessment, so I accept that criticism. 

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The repeated use of the pronoun “we” is fascinating.

Regarding my pronoun usage, I was focused more on pulling a wide range of thoughts together and distilling them into a few paragraphs.  So yes, I should have been more precise and said, "those members of the church who partake of the sacrament" instead of "we" (for the record, I'm not trying to sneak in through the back door).  I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.  Is there any other place in that post where my pronoun usage is objectionable to you as a member of the church? 

Edited February 20, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for the explanation of how and why one can embrace some principles of the Lord’s gospel and then use them to diminish or reject other of his teachings. This eclectic approach to the gospel seems inconsistent. 

 

That has nothing to do with being inconsistent. That is just the way how people wanna life the gospel. Or maybe even they wanna have nothing to do with it. That is their choice. 

I'm also not consistent with following all the church rules. But does it matter...no. No offcourse not nobody cares at the end of the day. And i care even less. I life the gospel how i want too. And everyone should do that i find. Makes life a lot easyer. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Dario_M

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, manol said:

That's a much milder reply than I expected.  I caught the sarcasm, and it's okay.  And "seems inconsistent" is a fair assessment, so I accept that criticism. 

Regarding my pronoun usage, I was focused more on pulling a wide range of thoughts together and distilling them into a few paragraphs.  So yes, I should have been more precise and said, "those members of the church who partake of the sacrament" instead of "we" (for the record, I'm not trying to sneak in through the back door).  I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.  Is there any other place in that post where my pronoun usage is objectionable to you as a member of the church? 

There was no sarcasm intended. A simple observation.

I said “fascinating,” not “objectionable.” It’s interesting that you often include yourself when speaking of LDS practices and doctrines as if you were still a member. Freudian slip perhaps? 😉

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

That has nothing to do with being inconsistent. That is just the way how people wanna life the gospel. Or maybe even they wanna have nothing to do with it. That is their choice. 

I'm also not consistent with following all the church rules. But does it matter...no. No offcourse not nobody cares at the end of the day. And i care even less. I life the gospel how i want too. And everyone should do that i find. Makes life a lot easyer. 

At the end of the day Father cares. Quite a bit, actually.

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

At the end of the day Father cares. Quite a bit, actually.

He cares maybe. But i whas only talking about the humans on earth actually. Not God. But nobody knows exactly what God wants anyway. Joseph Smith can easaly have made some mistakes. Maybe God doesn't want an endowment for me. Maybe God doesn't want the priesterhood for me. Maybe God doesn't want YOU to judge about ME.

Why do you have the need to judge other people Gui? Is that necessary? You make me think about some people of my ward actually. They are also acting like this. Really judgemental and when they just.......smell👃 that you are not consistent follow a rule (like me) they clearly don't like that and get really distance with ME. Typical judging behavoir. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

He cares maybe. But i whas only talking about the humans on earth actually. Not God. But nobody knows exactly what God wants anyway. Joseph Smith can easaly have made some mistakes. Maybe God doesn't want an endowment for me. Maybe God doesn't want the priesterhood for me. Maybe God doesn't want YOU to judge about ME.

Why do you have the need to judge other people Gui? Is that necessary? You make me think about some people of my ward actually. They are also acting like this. Really judgemental and when they just.......smell👃 that you are not consistent follow a rule (like me) they clearly don't like that and get really distance with ME. Typical judging behavoir. 

Why not ask God what he wants for you? It’s worth a try, no?

Please explain how this comment was judgmental.

Quote

At the end of the day Father cares. Quite a bit, actually.

 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Please explain how this comment was judgmental.

 

Because you are the one who is saying this to me. While you don't have the right to tell me this i find.

My heavenly father should tell me this. In a visioen....or a dream or so. Or after i DIE. 💀

BUT....i really find that you don't have the right to tell me this. I'm vulnerable enough already in my condition.

Have a nice day MyLord. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There was no sarcasm intended. A simple observation.

I said “fascinating,” not “objectionable.”

I apologize for mis-interpreting your intention on both accounts; obviously I still have work to do, and I appreciate you letting me know. Seriously.

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It’s interesting that you often include yourself when speaking of LDS practices and doctrines as if you were still a member. Freudian slip perhaps? 😉

Ha!  Maybe so.

I tend to draw my “circle of inclusion” quite large, but in my even verbalizing that there's arguably an implied and divisive “... and you don't”, which is the exact opposite of my intentions.

So again, I have work to do.

I keep thinking about something you pointed out to me, that my “eclectic approach to the gospel seems inconsistent.”  It does indeed.

My participation here has been in hopes of integrating my LDS experience with my post-LDS experience in an amateurish attempt to circumscribe (or at least reconcile) what I perceive as truths from two different paradigms into the same (thus far incomplete) whole.  The result is at best still a "mixture" and not a "compound", to borrow terminology from high school chemistry; which is to say that my attempt has been unsuccessful.  I am a slow learner, hence it has taken me a while to accept what was probably inevitable all along.

I thank you (and the other members of this forum) for playing a valuable and helpful role in my little journey.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

You re welcome. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, manol said:

I apologize for mis-interpreting your intention on both accounts; obviously I still have work to do, and I appreciate you letting me know. Seriously.

Ha!  Maybe so.

I tend to draw my “circle of inclusion” quite large, but in my even verbalizing that there's arguably an implied and divisive “... and you don't”, which is the exact opposite of my intentions.

So again, I have work to do.

I keep thinking about something you pointed out to me, that my “eclectic approach to the gospel seems inconsistent.”  It does indeed.

My participation here has been in hopes of integrating my LDS experience with my post-LDS experience in an amateurish attempt to circumscribe (or at least reconcile) what I perceive as truths from two different paradigms into the same (thus far incomplete) whole.  The result is at best still a "mixture" and not a "compound", to borrow terminology from high school chemistry; which is to say that my attempt has been unsuccessful.  I am a slow learner, hence it has taken me a while to accept what was probably inevitable all along.

I thank you (and the other members of this forum) for playing a valuable and helpful role in my little journey.

 

We are all on the spectrum of belief and belonging imo . We can all learn from one another. 

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:39 AM, manol said:

Thank you for writing back.  And yeah I'm even worse than a cafeteria Mormon... I'm a cafeteria ex-Mormon! ...

  

Should you ever choose to return, I, for one, would welcome you with open arms.  That said, while I must stop short of saying I agree with everything you've ever written here (I think anyone who agrees with everything anyone else ever has written here would need to have his or her head examined! )  I think you occupy an unusual position from which I believe you can do (and from which you do) much good.  (See Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28).  Certainly, I prefer friendly ex-Latter-day-Saints to their bitter, angry, hostile counterparts!

For one of those "horrible cafeteria ex-Latter-day-Saints," you're OK in my book.  

[MustardSeed]

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t operate from a cafeteria mindset.  We all pick and choose because we can’t possibly eat it all.  I think the term is derogatory and by nature hypocritical.  You add a lot here just the way you are.

[3DOP]

On 2/16/2023 at 4:02 PM, Smiley McGee said:

Great questions; I'll attempt an answer. Though, perhaps frustratingly, this may come down to a matter of how we define words.

I take knowledge in this sense to mean what I believe Jesus was describing in John 17, "And this is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God..." When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.  12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.  13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. They are like bricks that we lay down to create a path that we trust will lead to our divine goal; we don't just carry them on shoulders for the sake of having them. 

Stealing the imagery from the wedding in Cana in John 2, we exercise faith as we strive to empty our inner vessel of any corrupt elements and fill it to the brim with pure water, trusting that in doing so Jesus will transform the contents of our vessel into something that will fuel our union with the Divine. 

In short, and in agreement with @pogi (hopefully not putting words in their mouth), faith is what we have to work with until we are exalted, or, I would add, one with God.

Hey Smiley,

I was talking to a friend at work about knowledge as angels have it. Man learns through sense experience and necessarily thinks in words and speaks in words in order to communicate to others. According to the faith of my friend and I, the angels don't come into the world as a human with a blank slate, gaining knowledge through sense experience. Being fully formed when God made them, they don't learn as we do. There are no schools for angels.

So after that discussion last week, the Mass this past Sunday had for its reading the well-known passage from St. Paul about the superiority and permanent virtue of charity as opposed to faith and hope. What struck me though, because of my discussion during the week, was what the Apostle had to say about knowledge at the end of the chapter: 

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.  We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.  And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

---I Cor. 13:11-13

I think Paul is giving us an analogy here when he points out the difference between way adults think and the way children think. It takes a child years, even after learning a language, and being able to communicate, to be able to follow abstract ideas and consider philosophical or theological questions. That is how it was for St. Paul, until he became a man and began to be able to reason well and weigh arguments. That is how it is for us all. So we eventually "put away the things of a child". 

But then it seems like He is telling us that the knowledge we have through faith is as dim and weak in comparison with what is to follow for those who are redeemed, as the thinking of a small child is to a philosopher. Faith grasps but does not comprehend. We pray for faith and we defend our faith and we are grateful for the wonderful gift of faith. But that same faith teaches that this faith isn't intended to be ultimately satisfying. That is why these words resonated with me: 

Sorry Smiley...I intended to quote you word for word as you explained what you thought the words in Jn. 17 mean in regards to conceptual knowledge versus something that we cannot put into words, because it is inconceivable to us at this time. (I am not very good with computers. I tried to paste. I only managed to delete what you wrote!). Anyway, very well said.

My friend was thinking about the passage in Romans where we are told that the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings "which cannot be uttered". Why do we suppose they can't be uttered? Is it illegal? I think not! It is probably beyond words. As you said, ineffable. I joked with my friend that of course, the redeemed will all be speaking Latin, including him. I go to the Traditional Latin Mass and he doesn't and so we have friendly disagreements about a few things. But he knew I was joking. We are both doubting if there will be "language" as we know it in heaven.

I am impressed with your view of the utility of faith, as it is intended for the present. I am also pleased to see elsewhere that you had such a good experience at your first exposures to Holy Mass. Come see us again!

God bless,

Rory, aka 3DOP

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by 3DOP

[OGHoosier]

24 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

 

I think Paul is giving us an analogy here when he points out the difference between way adults think and the way children think. It takes a child years, even after learning a language, and being able to communicate, to be able to follow abstract ideas and consider philosophical or theological questions. That is how it was for St. Paul, until he became a man and began to be able to reason well and weigh arguments. That is how it is for us all. So we eventually "put away the things of a child". 

But then it seems like He is telling us that the knowledge we have through faith is as dim and weak in comparison with what is to follow for those who are redeemed, as the thinking of a small child is to a philosopher. Faith grasps but does not comprehend. We pray for faith and we defend our faith and we are grateful for the wonderful gift of faith. But that same faith teaches that this faith isn't intended to be ultimately satisfying. That is why these words resonated with me: 

As usual, St. Paul nails what philosophers spend years anguishing about. 

I was reading a delightful paper by the excellent philosopher Dr. Eleonore Stump (incidentally also a Catholic - actually it's not incidental, Catholicism is integral to her philosophy, but you get the drift.) I have linked it here: https://ojs.tnkul.pl/index.php/rf/article/view/16476/15702

She spends a large portion of the paper discussing second-person knowledge, or knowledge/acquaintance of other people. Along the way she constructs a very good argument for the idea that second-person knowledge is a form of non-propositional knowledge, the contents of which are ineffable or simply cannot be encoded in propositions. This got me thinking - it seems to me that a lot of our modern miasma suffers from an acute methodological problem. We have set the foundations of our society on the Enlightenment and the principles of rational argumentation - but argumentative rationality can only work with propositions. I believe it was Heisenberg who said that science is not reality, rather it is reality subjected to our methods of observation. I suspect that knowledge of God is likely the highest form of non-propositional knowledge, but is unsatisfying at times because it a) is an undeveloped method, we are still growing into it, and b) it relies on a form of knowledge to which our methodological zeitgeist is blinded. 

[3DOP]

37 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

As usual, St. Paul nails what philosophers spend years anguishing about. 

I was reading a delightful paper by the excellent philosopher Dr. Eleonore Stump (incidentally also a Catholic - actually it's not incidental, Catholicism is integral to her philosophy, but you get the drift.) I have linked it here: https://ojs.tnkul.pl/index.php/rf/article/view/16476/15702

She spends a large portion of the paper discussing second-person knowledge, or knowledge/acquaintance of other people. Along the way she constructs a very good argument for the idea that second-person knowledge is a form of non-propositional knowledge, the contents of which are ineffable or simply cannot be encoded in propositions. This got me thinking - it seems to me that a lot of our modern miasma suffers from an acute methodological problem. We have set the foundations of our society on the Enlightenment and the principles of rational argumentation - but argumentative rationality can only work with propositions. I believe it was Heisenberg who said that science is not reality, rather it is reality subjected to our methods of observation. I suspect that knowledge of God is likely the highest form of non-propositional knowledge, but is unsatisfying at times because it a) is an undeveloped method, we are still growing into it, and b) it relies on a form of knowledge to which our methodological zeitgeist is blinded. 

OG, hi. 

I am familiar with Dr. Stump. I haven't visited her site in a while. I will hope to check out the link. Thanks for the tip. 

[manol]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:05 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

  

Should you ever choose to return, I, for one, would welcome you with open arms.  That said, while I must stop short of saying I agree with everything you've ever written here (I think anyone who agrees with everything anyone else ever has written here would need to have his or her head examined! )  I think you occupy an unusual position from which I believe you can do (and from which you do) much good.  (See Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28).  Certainly, I prefer friendly ex-Latter-day-Saints to their bitter, angry, hostile counterparts!

For one of those "horrible cafeteria ex-Latter-day-Saints," you're OK in my book.  

Thank you very much, that means a lot to me.