The Holy Ghost Causes To Remember And Forget

[Pyreaux]

There is a Biblical phenomenon where the Holy Spirit brings something to remembrance (John 14:26), and further common-enough Missionary phenomenon where investigators remember things they never knew, or were never taught before, but somehow knew. A missionary teaches about the Pre-Mortal Existence and the investigator, though they intellectually know this is the first time hearing it, could almost swear they have something like a memory of it, something they swear their old church taught (when they didn't), a thing they have always believed since they were young but can't pin-point when. The Pre-Mortal Existence discussions are particularly interesting, as some upon hearing of it think they can hazily remember the Pre-Mortal Existence, or recognized people's faces of someone they just met, etc.

There is a contrast to this spiritual memory and clarity taken as a positive response from the Holy Spirit, the phenomenon that the Holy Ghost can cause a "stupor of thought", and "to forget the thing which is wrong” (D&C 9:9), mainly with regards to a negative response from the Holy Spirit.

Then there are times when an inactive member falls away, though they've felt the Spirit before, they forget how the Spirit feels, they start to forget basic things about the Gospel they once knew well. This phenomenon is supposedly the Holy Spirit causing the fallen to forget, to soften their heart, to make them more amendable to the gospel once again. So when they feel the Spirit or learn the Gospel, it's just like it was the first time when it is not, leading to reconversion. A less weird explanation of what is meant by how "divine tentacles" reach out to draw in the fallen away covenant children. I believe it, I've seen it, but coincidentally, though I must have learned this last bit a long time ago. I don't know where. I've not made myself well versed in commonly read LDS literature to know where my LDS idea came from. Maybe it was just too long ago, local lore, maybe the Holy Ghost is causing me to forget, maybe it's the Mandela effect (everyone remembers but no one can find where they learned it: Like it's the Berenstein Bears, right?).

I can't reference what I'm describing. Sound familiar to any of you? Anyone know what I'm talking about? Anything like this happen to you personally? I sure have.

Edited February 14 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

Cool. I hope the holy ghost will also tell me some new information. 

Interesting topic btw. 👍

 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

There is a Biblical phenomenon where the Holy Spirit brings something to remembrance (John 14:26), and further common-enough Missionary phenomenon where investigators remember things they never knew, or were never taught before, but somehow knew. A missionary teaches about the Pre-Mortal Existence and the investigator, though they intellectually know this is the first time hearing it, could almost swear they have something like a memory of it, something they swear their old church taught (when they didn't), a thing they have always believed since they were young but can't pin-point when. The Pre-Mortal Existence discussions are particularly interesting, as some upon hearing of it think they can hazily remember the Pre-Mortal Existence, or recognized people's faces of someone they just met, etc.

There is a contrast to this spiritual memory and clarity taken as a positive response from the Holy Spirit, the phenomenon that the Holy Ghost can cause a "stupor of thought", and "to forget the thing which is wrong” (D&C 9:9), mainly with regards to a negative response from the Holy Spirit.

Then there are times when an inactive member falls away, though they've felt the Spirit before, they forget how the Spirit feels, they start to forget basic things about the Gospel they once knew well. This phenomenon is supposedly the Holy Spirit causing the fallen to forget, to soften their heart, to make them more amendable to the gospel once again. So when they feel the Spirit or learn the Gospel, it's just like it was the first time when it is not, leading to reconversion. A less weird explanation of what is meant by how "divine tentacles" reach out to draw in the fallen away covenant children. I believe it, I've seen it, but coincidentally, though I must have learned this last bit a long time ago. I don't know where. I've not made myself well versed in commonly read LDS literature to know where my LDS idea came from. Maybe it was just too long ago, local lore, maybe the Holy Ghost is causing me to forget, maybe it's the Mandela effect (everyone remembers but no one can find where they learned it: Like it's the Berenstein Bears, right?).

I can't reference what I'm describing. Sound familiar to any of you? Anyone know what I'm talking about? Anything like this happen to you personally? I sure have.

I haven't heard it and I don't tend to beleive it. I do beleive the Lord does continue to reach out to those who have lapsed, fallen away or otherwise lost the light and gifts they once had. But the Spirit will not always strive with us; I suppose that's our choice not His. I have had the experience of not remembering the misdeeds of the repentant; these I beleive are blessings of grace.

ETA: The light of Christ seems more pertinent to a stupor or clarity of thought than a function of the Holy Ghost or Spirit, which seems more involved with "quickening" the whole person (D&C 67:11) and not just our understanding (D&C 88:11). And then there is the power of God, which can take many forms, media and administrations.

Edited February 14 by CV75

[Mathete]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. If you didn’t read it in the first place He can’t bring into your remembrance. You have to do your part. John 14:14-16 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.. Forever, how do people think you lose it!!

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Mathete said:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. If you didn’t read it in the first place He can’t bring into your remembrance. You have to do your part. John 14:14-16 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.. Forever, how do people think you lose it!!

What other spiritual force, other than the Holy Spirit, confuses the wicked (Jeremiah 20:11) and confounds their speech (Genesis 11:9)?

Digging deep into the older threads, I see. Cheers.

[Mathete]

Sorry, I’m new here a didn’t know not to go into old threads. The Holy Spirit in Old Testament days came upon men to strengthen and equip them for some specific work, but He didn’t abide with them and Indwell them. The indwelling came later John 14:16-19 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

[Pyreaux]

9 hours ago, Mathete said:

Sorry, I’m new here a didn’t know not to go into old threads. The Holy Spirit in Old Testament days came upon men to strengthen and equip them for some specific work, but He didn’t abide with them and Indwell them. The indwelling came later John 14:16-19 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

No apologies, it's just a bit unusual to see. You can resurrect whatever thread interests you.

I'm not sure I accept the indwelling was a later phenomena. King Saul had the spirit pore upon him and he spoke the tongues of angels just like at Pentecost (1 Samuel 10:6). and yet the Spirit withdrew. King David had the Spirit and prayed for it not to be taken (Psalm 51:11). King Solomon considered to be his constant companion that stays with him (Wisdom of Solomon 8:16). It "may" abide in you forever. But what if you defile the temple of your body? What happens when we "quench" (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and "grieve" (Ephesians 4:30) the Spirit? Will we not remember so well?

Edited March 26 by Pyreaux

[Mathete]

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

No apologies, it's just a bit unusual to see. You can resurrect whatever thread interests you.

I'm not sure I accept the indwelling was a later phenomena. King Saul had the spirit pore upon him and he spoke the tongues of angels just like at Pentecost. and yet the Spirit withdrew. King David had the Spirit and prayed for it not to be taken. King Solomon considered to be his constant companion that stays with him (Wisdom of Solomon 8:16). It "may" abide in you forever. But what if you defile the temple of your body? What happens when we "quench" (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and "grieve" (Ephesians 4:30) the Spirit? Will we not remember so well?

It is so refreshing to speak to someone who actually reads the scriptures, thank you for that, comments backed by scripture carry much mor weight in my book. Thank you for  that. In John 15:25-26 we read “when”, this has not happened yet. We do know that the prophets of old time were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:20-21), but the indwelling is unknown in the Old Testament.    Here we have our Lord speaking in John “7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
 chapter 16.

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, Mathete said:

It is so refreshing to speak to someone who actually reads the scriptures, thank you for that, comments backed by scripture carry much mor weight in my book. Thank you for  that. In John 15:25-26 we read “when”, this has not happened yet. We do know that the prophets of old time were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:20-21), but the indwelling is unknown in the Old Testament.    Here we have our Lord speaking in John “7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
 chapter 16.

Ah, I see. My understanding is the Holy Spirit wasn't functioning much at all, not even as it did for kings of the past, during Christ's mortal ministry specifically. I don't yet see reason to distinguish the spirit that fell on Saul from when it fell at Pentecost, it would not fall upon anyone at all (but Christ himself) during Christ's ministry. So, it does not seem to follow, that just because it couldn't happen until Pentecost, that it never happened before Christ, it happened to Saul, Gideon and Virgin Mary.

Your ideas seem to be a position that one would only take to, perhaps, support a sort of 'once saved always saved' i.e. the Christian cannot 'lose the Holy Ghost' doctrine that would require one to explain why the Spirit left King Saul. Certainly, we have the right, whenever we are worthy, to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, but a Christian can apostatize. So, what becomes of the gift of the Holy Ghost then?

Demas, was an ordained missionary, who must have the Holy Spirit to be sent to teach, but he abandoned Paul, "having loved this present world" (2 Tim 4:10) and some entire regions, "all the saints in Asia had turned away", from Paul (2 Tim 1:15). If they were all Christian converts, they must have had the Holy Spirit given to them after they were baptized, or are we to believe not one person in Asia that was baptized had the Holy Ghost administered to them? Neither would any Christian in Rome stand with Paul when he got arraigned.

The entire church of Ephesus faced rejection from God, even after they had been converted. Even after putting false Apostles on trial, the Lord still was saying the whole church "left her first love". If these believing Christians did not repent, "God will remove her out of her place". God will reject a church of former converts of the Holy Spirit (Rev 2:1-7). This is what an Apostacy is.

Edited March 27 by Pyreaux

[Mathete]

I want to understand what your saying. I have 2 questions; 1. Is the Holy Spirit the same as salvation? 2. Is the Holy Spirit something you earn?

[Pyreaux]

Salvation technically is a postmortem event, the gate to the ideal salvation, is to complete a spiritual rebirth, receiving the Holy Ghost, and you can have mild confidence that you "shall" be saved. Everyone is liable to personal apostacy/rebellion/revolt, if you believe in freewill. I was saying the old spiritual endowment is the same as the new. I disagreed that indwelling was later. I am simply trying to glean your possessions is based on scriptures you've used, 1. a verse on the dry spell of the spirit during Christ's ministry but doesn't show indwelling wasn't before the ministry; and 2. one verse implied permanency, I'm saying its conditional, and I yammered on about conditions when people who should have the Holy Ghost yet fell away. Perhaps I assumed too much of your possessions.

Earn the Holy Ghost? Gifts are free. Barring a miracle of God, the "gift" of the Holy Ghost is generally always "given"/bestowed by the laying on of hands of an authority figure. God himself anointed Jesus and Cornelius. Samuel anointed Saul, Jesus bestowed it on the Apostles with his hands. That is the usual modus operandi.

Edited March 28 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

you can have mild confidence

Just “mild confidence”?  Really?  Where did you get the idea it could only be “mild”?

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Just “mild confidence”?  Really?  Where did you get the idea it could only be “mild”?

Well, does everyone who will apostatize foresee that day coming? There is a degree of security, you are certainly in control of your fate, but if you believe in freewill, you have to accept the possibility even gifted with the Holy Ghost can still rebel.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Well, does everyone who will apostatize foresee that day coming? There is a degree of security, you are certainly in control of your fate, but if you believe in freewill, you have to accept the possibility even gifted with the Holy Ghost can still rebel.

I don’t necessarily connect the experience of confidence with reality. Some people have been very confident when I thought they were being idiots. 

I cannot conceive of my existence without the sense that God is there and I trust him.  I have always felt that way. It is like trying to imagine what life would be like if I was homeless, without the security of loved ones. There has never been a moment I felt insecure or threatened by that kind of loss. Sure, I can read stories of other’s’ experiences and try and put myself in that place, but truly comprehending the experience…outside my capability at this time. Hope I never get there.

Intellectually I can say God may not exist, but confidence is an emotion and emotionally I am certain, more confident in God and in my salvation through him than pretty much anything else in life. What salvation actually will be like besides it is more than I can dream of and will provide me and others with eternal joy in our existence, I don’t have a clue though I know somethings I would like it to be like. 

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I don’t necessarily connect the experience of confidence with reality. Some people have been very confident when I thought they were being idiots. 

I cannot conceive of my existence without the sense that God is there and I trust him.  I have always felt that way. It is like trying to imagine what life would be like if I was homeless, without the security of loved ones. There has never been a moment I felt insecure or threatened by that kind of loss. Sure, I can read stories of other’s’ experiences and try and put myself in that place, but truly comprehending the experience…outside my capability at this time. Hope I never get there.

Intellectually I can say God may not exist, but confidence is an emotion and emotionally I am certain, more confident in God and in my salvation through him than pretty much anything else in life. What salvation actually will be like besides it is more than I can dream of and will provide me and others with eternal joy in our existence, I don’t have a clue though I know somethings I would like it to be like. 

It's just one should never be overconfident in your spirituality and idol hands are the devil's playthings. Isn't that the folly of King David?

[Calm]

I am not confident in my spirituality, but in God’s.

Nor are my hands or mind idle.

[InCognitus]

This aspect of forgetting, or the stupor of thought, has always struck me as something that Athanasius seems to be expressing when he describes his meditation on the divinity of the Logos, sometime after the first council of Nicaea.  I've seen this quotation alluded to in Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 21,  under the subheading, "Mysterious nature of the Trinity".  But I finally tracked down the actual source a few years ago, in Athanasius Letter 52 (First Letter to Monks - written 358-360 AD):

Quote

1. In compliance with your affectionate request, which you have frequently urged upon me, I have written a short account of the sufferings which ourselves and the Church have undergone, refuting, according to my ability, the accursed heresy of the Arian madmen, and proving how entirely it is alien from the Truth. And I thought it needful to represent to your Piety what pains the writing of these things has cost me, in order that you may understand thereby how truly the blessed Apostle has said, 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God Romans 11:33;' and may kindly bear with a weak man such as I am by nature. For the more I desired to write, and endeavoured to force myself to understand the Divinity of the Word, so much the more did the knowledge thereof withdraw itself from me; and in proportion as I thought that I apprehended it, in so much I perceived myself to fail of doing so. Moreover also I was unable to express in writing even what I seemed to myself to understand; and that which I wrote was unequal to the imperfect shadow of the truth which existed in my conception.

Now I suppose this could also just be a finite mind trying to comprehend something that is impossible for the human mind to comprehend, but it is different than the "pure intelligence" that typically accompanies the Spirit of Revelation by the Spirit of God.  I just don't know what else to make of it.