Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?" - Part II


Recommended Posts

Last August I started a thread: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

In the OP I presented a variety of definitions and descriptions about "Christian Nationalism," and also addressed whether we as Latter-day Saints ought to be concerned about it:

Quote

The Deseret News followed up on this topic in February 2021:  How Americans can address Christian nationalism in their congregations and communities

Worth a reas.  This one also (a May 2022 opinion piece in the Deseret News) : Perspective: What’s the difference between Christian nationalism and healthy patriotism?

Also probably worth a read: 

To sum up:

  • The apparent racial component of Christian Nationalism (in some quarters) is problematic.
  • The advocacy of intertwining religion with the State is problematic.
  • The notion that the Latter-day Saints would be welcomed to the table should ardent Christian Nationalists have their way is . . . pretty iffy.
  • I have questions about the legitimacy of connecting "Christian Nationalism" to "White Nationalism," as Whitehead does above.  I'll need to look at the data.  

Thoughts?

And here:

Quote

I initially harbored some suspicion that it is the far-left version of what QAnon is to the far-right: a hugely speculative and overreaching conspiracy theory intended to create a menacing boogeyman.  A mostly fabricated threat designed to rally the troops.  The data I looked at indicates that there are sizable numbers of Americans who support at least some of the underlying - and in my view problematic - precepts.  And there are plenty of genuinely devout Christians who, like me, share many presuppositions with, but still end up rejecting, Christian Nationalism (see, e.g., "Christian Nationalism Is ‘Single Biggest Threat’ to America’s Religious Freedom").

I have tried to approach Christian Nationalism in an open-minded, clinical way.  So far my assessment is that it wants "Christianity" (the parameters of which are notably not described) to enjoy elevated and privileged status in the United States.  It wants a state religion.  There are some legitimately concerning racialized aspects to the movement (see, e.g., here, here, here).  Having concluded that Christian Nationalism is problematic, I feel it appropriate to oppose it, and to explain why I oppose it. This is not based emotional vitriol and a pound-of-flesh attitude. ...

I agree with, and have signed, the "Christians Against Christian Nationalism" statement here:

Quote

 

As Christians, our faith teaches us everyone is created in God’s image and commands us to love one another. As Americans, we value our system of government and the good that can be accomplished in our constitutional democracy. Today, we are concerned about a persistent threat to both our religious communities and our democracy — Christian nationalism.

Christian nationalism seeks to merge Christian and American identities, distorting both the Christian faith and America’s constitutional democracy. Christian nationalism demands Christianity be privileged by the State and implies that to be a good American, one must be Christian. It often overlaps with and provides cover for white supremacy and racial subjugation. We reject this damaging political ideology and invite our Christian brothers and sisters to join us in opposing this threat to our faith and to our nation.

 As Christians, we are bound to Christ, not by citizenship, but by faith. We believe that:

  • People of all faiths and none have the right and responsibility to engage constructively in the public square.

  • Patriotism does not require us to minimize our religious convictions.

  • One’s religious affiliation, or lack thereof, should be irrelevant to one’s standing in the civic community.

  • Government should not prefer one religion over another or religion over nonreligion.

  • Religious instruction is best left to our houses of worship, other religious institutions and families.

  • America’s historic commitment to religious pluralism enables faith communities to live in civic harmony with one another without sacrificing our theological convictions.

  • Conflating religious authority with political authority is idolatrous and often leads to oppression of minority and other marginalized groups as well as the spiritual impoverishment of religion.

  • We must stand up to and speak out against Christian nationalism, especially when it inspires acts of violence and intimidation—including vandalism, bomb threats, arson, hate crimes, and attacks on houses of worship—against religious communities at home and abroad.

Whether we worship at a church, mosque, synagogue, or temple, America has no second-class faiths. All are equal under the U.S. Constitution. As Christians, we must speak in one voice condemning Christian nationalism as a distortion of the gospel of Jesus and a threat to American democracy.

 

 

Anyway, today the Trib published this:

Quote

29% of Americans and 38% of Latter-day Saints are Christian nationalists

Among white evangelicals, poll shows, nearly two-thirds are Christian nationalists or sympathizers.

Hmm.

Quote

A new survey finds that fewer than a third of Americans ( 29%) qualify as Christian nationalists, and of those, two-thirds define themselves as white evangelicals.

At 38%, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are more inclined toward Christian nationalism than the general population.

The survey of 6,212 Americans by the Public Religion Research Institute and the Brookings Institution is the largest yet to gauge the size and scope of Christian nationalist beliefs.

The survey itself is very much worth a read.  Some excerpts:

Quote

To measure Christian nationalism, the PRRI/Brookings Christian Nationalism Survey included a battery of five questions about the relationship between Christianity, American identity, and the U.S. government. Respondents were asked whether they completely agree, mostly agree, mostly disagree, or completely disagree with each of the following statements:

  • The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation.
  • U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
  • If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore.
  • Being Christian is an important part of being truly American.
  • God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society.

Unfortunately, the survey does not itemize how Latter-day Saints who were polled responded to the above statements.  Instead, all we have is this:

PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_3-19

The percentage of Latter-day Saints designated as "Adherents" is one of the lowest in the list of religious groupings, and and less than half (5%) of the average of the groupings overall (11%).

So the lion's share is in the "Sympathizers" category (33%).  Let's take a look again at the five statements used in the survey to measure "Christian Nationalism":

  1. The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation.
  2. U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
  3. If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore.
  4. Being Christian is an important part of being truly American.
  5. God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society.

I would be surprised to see Latter-day Saints affirming or favoring #1, #4 and #5.

I think Latter-day Saints may be more likely to affirm #2 and #3, largely due to "Christian values" being viewed generally as synonymous with what could be called "moral values."

Anyway, back to the Trib article:

Quote

According to the poll, Latter-day Saints (33% sympathizers and 5% adherents) also lean more toward supporting Christian nationalism than the overall populace.

Majorities of white mainline Protestants, Catholics, Jews, members of other non-Christian faiths and unaffiliated Americans, on the other hand, reject or mostly reject Christian nationalism. (The survey calls them “skeptics” and “rejecters.”)

Gotta love the gloss that the Trib puts on this.  The "sympathizers/adherents" totals for the above groups are:

  • White Mainline Protestants: 33% / 65%
  • Catholics (White) : 30% / 68%
  • Catholics (Hispanic) : 23% / 76%
  • Jews: 7%: 92%
  • Members of other non-Christian faiths: 11% / 88%
  • Unaffiliated Americans: 7% / 92%

The "Sympathizers/Adherents" versus "Skeptics/Rejecters" totals for the Latter-day Saints are 38% and 60%.  That is, we are one of the groups with "{m}ajorities ... {who} reject or mostly reject Christian nationalism," yet the Trib lists these groups as being "on the other hand" from the Latter-day Saints.

Quote

Unlike other studies that have suggested Christian nationalists are only nominally churchgoing, the PRRI/Brookings survey found Christian nationalists are significantly more likely than other Americans to be connected to churches and to say religion is important in their lives.

“There’s a strong positive correlation between frequency of church attendance and likelihood of being a Christian nationalism adherent or sympathizer,” said Robert P. Jones, president and founder of PRRI. “Christian nationalism adherents are more than six times as likely as Christian nationalism rejectors to attend church weekly.”

Avowed Christian nationalists also tend to be older, with about 6 in 10 Christian nationalists and their sympathizers over age 50, the survey said. They are also far less educated than other Americans. Only 18% of Christian nationalism supporters have a four-year college degree, compared with 36% of those who were labeled skeptics and and 48% of Christian nationalism rejecters.

Christian nationalism as a worldview is not new but the term is. Indeed, a third of respondents said they had not heard of the term. For that reason, it’s impossible to say whether the ranks of Christian nationalists have grown over time.

In their book “Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States,” sociologists Andrew Whitehead and Sam Perry found that about 20% of Americans strongly embrace Christian nationalist ideas. The PRRI survey is more in line with a 2021 Pew Research survey that found that 10% of Americans are what Pew identified as hard-core “faith and flag” conservatives.

Whatever the precise number, the survey confirms that by a ratio of 2-to-1, Americans reject a Christian nationalist worldview.

The Latter-day Saints are pretty close to that 2-to-1 ratio (60% "skeptics/rejecters" versus 38% "sympathizers/adherents").

Anyway, I reiterate the observations/conclusions cited above (from the previous thread).

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
3 hours ago, smac97 said:

The percentage of Latter-day Saints designated as "Adherents" is one of the lowest in the list of religious groupings, and and less than half (5%) of the average of the groupings overall (11%).

Curiously, Latter-day Saints have fewer adherents at 5%, then "other non-Christian religious" at 7%, and are not too far ahead of Jews at 2%  Those last two groups are pretty unexpected.  What's that all about???

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

So the lion's share is in the "Sympathizers" category (33%).  Let's take a look again at the five statements used in the survey to measure "Christian Nationalism":

  1. The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation.
  2. U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
  3. If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore.
  4. Being Christian is an important part of being truly American.
  5. God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society.

I would be surprised to see Latter-day Saints affirming or favoring #1, #4 and #5.

I think Latter-day Saints may be more likely to affirm #2 and #3, largely due to "Christian values" being viewed generally as synonymous with what could be called "moral values."

I think you are probably right about that.  

 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

  1. The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation.
  2. U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
  3. If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore.
  4. Being Christian is an important part of being truly American.
  5. God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society.

I would be surprised to see Latter-day Saints affirming or favoring #1, #4 and #5.

I think Latter-day Saints may be more likely to affirm #2 and #3, largely due to "Christian values" being viewed generally as synonymous with what could be called "moral values."

I wouldn’t be surprised to see quite a few Latter-Day Saints affirming 1 and 4 and even a few supporting 5 but I am guessing 5 would be the least chosen. I really hope I am right on that. The Latter-Day Saints have enough problems without trying to slit their own throats like that.

I admit I am curious about who created this. Number three contains a phrase commonly used by Trump and rare in normal conversation. “We will not have a country anymore” is one of his common lines in rallies and on social media. It is odd that they decided to use his verbiage.

 

Link to comment

This reminds me of a survey that supposedly showed that Saints were big believers in reincarnation (my guess is because of confusion over the Preexistence). I wonder how much of this is a different understanding of what is meant. I know quite a few Saints who use Christian and Christlike interchangeably in casual conversation, for example.  Or “Christian” is so generalized for them they ‘hear’ “moral”, though if asked for clarification they don’t believe that the only moral way of life is the Christian one. They just haven’t needed to apply it to a different context. 

Edited by Calm
Link to comment

I think there are many saints in my neck of the woods who could be called Christian Nationalists, and definitely far-right. So much so that as someone who is in the middle, I am concerned about socializing with them outside of church because of the groupthink. Unfortunately, our new bishop is one of them. 

Link to comment

Isn't our position that leaving the safety of  discipleship of Jesus Christ risks our country's survival, but that doesn't mean there is any way that it is okay to force, compel or demand that anyone live discipleship of Jesus Christ officially (or as they may be lived within another faith that ours).  

 

I looked at the survey questions and I walked away thinking the questions weren't ones that I could answer because they were not clear about the details or sometimes about the implications  raised by the questions.

Further, members who don't regularly read the verses about our faith's connection to the North American continent and/or to the US may overstate it.

We don't believe in compulsion and we do believe that the Spirit can bless the lives of any willing person to testify of truth.

Link to comment
8 hours ago, rpn said:

Isn't our position that leaving the safety of  discipleship of Jesus Christ risks our country's survival, but that doesn't mean there is any way that it is okay to force, compel or demand that anyone live discipleship of Jesus Christ officially (or as they may be lived within another faith that ours).  

There is a reason Lucifer’s plan was tempting.

Link to comment

Why has @Smac93 always such long posts? I can not read all of that dear Smac. I don't have to much concencetration. And my English is not so well. 

But on the other hand you make me super curious when i road your openings titel you know. Then i really wanna know what this topic is all about dear Smac. 💜 Can you help me a bit allong?  

Btw i am om church right on this momment. God bless you all dear folks. ❤🧡💛🧡🧡💛🧡🧡💛🧡✝️✝️✝️

Edited by Dario_M
Link to comment
On 2/10/2023 at 9:59 AM, smac97 said:
  • U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
  • If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore.

I firmly and unabashedly hold to those beliefs. If that alone constitutes being a “Christian nationalist,” you can add my name to the roster. 
 

I believe we should join with good people everywhere in resisting any movement to marginalize Judeo-Christian values in our society. 

Link to comment
38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I firmly and unabashedly hold to those beliefs. If that alone constitutes being a “Christian nationalist,” you can add my name to the roster. 
 

I believe we should join with good people everywhere in resisting any movement to marginalize Judeo-Christian values in our society. 

We have to have Judeo-Christian values first in order to marginalize them.

Link to comment
30 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Laws should be based on christian values.  That is vague.  What are the Christian values at issue?   Honesty, do not kill, do not steal, love your neighbor?  If those than yes, laws should be based on those values. 

None of those values are distinctly Christian except (to a limited degree) the one about loving your neighbor.

Link to comment

When people say they want a Christian morality in our laws they mean the stuff you can find in most codified laws.

So it ends up being nebulous and ill-defined like in that survey where you have people who think the basic laws about murder, theft, and false testimony are the main thing, then you have some that want to regulate the more specific Christian “laws” into the legal code to those who think Christianity should be endorsed by the government and those who refuse should receive some kind of shunning to theocratic fascists who want to murder all heretics.

The irony is that many of those championing making government more openly Christian in the US government seem to very often strain at the gnat of drag queens while swallowing the camel of lying, sexual infidelity, injustice, and corruption amongst themselves personally and ignoring it in their colleagues. They need to get back to basics or fewer and fewer are going to take their tutting about morality seriously. As a bonus side effect they are making Christianity itself odious and vile to more and more people. Some prophecies suggest the Saints (and possibly other Christians) will endure persecution before the end. I now sometimes wonder if they will have brought it on themselves to some degree.

Link to comment
29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They don’t have to be “distinctly” Christian to be Christian. 

But if that were all those wanting more Christianity in government wanted they wouldn’t need Christianity. The Code of Hammurabi would work. So would Confucianism. So would an appeal to basic fairness. They want more then that.

Link to comment
11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I firmly and unabashedly hold to those beliefs. If that alone constitutes being a “Christian nationalist,” you can add my name to the roster. 
 

I believe we should join with good people everywhere in resisting any movement to marginalize Judeo-Christian values in our society. 

But this suggests that NON-Christians don't/can't have "Christian values" (and it also presumes that we share the same list of "Christian (as americans now decide them to be) values"    Some US christians (likely other places too, but we are speaking about US) believe and/or act like they believe that those who don't believe the same as them aren't "Christians" at all.    Some US Christians deny that members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "Christian" at all or that their baptisms are valid.   Some teach that men and women aren't equal or even that they have a duty to get rid of non-Christians.    Some Christians still think Jews are all bad because of the crucifixion.   

I'm all for a whole list of values that have been taught and lived in many faiths that are consistent with the Lord's plan and have for a long time been at least nominally and in many personally case lifting those who engage in them and humanity in general.   I just don't think we can afford to act on the misassumption that we are talking about the same values just because they've been named "Christian" or "Judeo-Christian"  values.    And in the circles of "Christian nationalist" the values are about force which diametrically opposed to the gentle invitations the Lord gives.

Link to comment
13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I firmly and unabashedly hold to those beliefs. If that alone constitutes being a “Christian nationalist,” you can add my name to the roster. 
 

I believe we should join with good people everywhere in resisting any movement to marginalize Judeo-Christian values in our society. 

Should our laws be based on both Jewish and Christian values or am I misunderstanding? Also, which Christian values? My upbringing was in Church of Christ which in some ways is much stricter than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not sure you would want our laws based on the beliefs of the C ofC. I think we need to define which Judeo-Christian values we are talking about. 

Link to comment
7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But if that were all those wanting more Christianity in government wanted they wouldn’t need Christianity. The Code of Hammurabi would work. So would Confucianism. So would an appeal to basic fairness. They want more then that.

Bingo. This poll (and discussion) can only be productive if someone can explain what values are held by Christians, but not by Hindus, Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Jews, and other faiths.
 

Until then, as a devout Christian, I’ll just say that the government should declare us a Jewish nation, US laws should be based on Buddhist values, if the US moves away from our traditional Native American values we won’t have a country anymore, being Humanist is an important part of being truly American, and God has called Muslims to exercise dominion over all areas of American Society. 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...