Missionaries' "Nope" Response to Lesbian Doormat - An Afterthought

[smac97]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:19 AM, bluebell said:

That’s typical Smac though. When has he not quoted all the details when he’s making a point?  Giant posts with multiple quotes on quotes is his MO, regardless of the topic. 

I resent that remark!  Or I resemble it.  One or other other.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:27 AM, CV75 said:

I didn't take this as a comparison between proselytes, but as a confirmation of how bias undermines agency when it inclines us to withhold the good news.

Yep.  I was offering corrective counsel to overcome literal prejudice by Latter-day Saints.  I'm sort of surprised some find this controversial.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you man. And you are right. Normal (straight) people are sometimes disgusted by gay people. 

When i whas in high school there where many moments i really hated my life. 

Thanks for the hugs. 🫂

I’d like to say I was surprised to see your post downvoted by so-called “saints”, but I am not. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  I was offering corrective counsel to overcome literal prejudice by Latter-day Saints.  I'm sort of surprised some find this controversial.  

Thanks,

-Smac

All hail Smac. Fighting prejudice in one breath, meanwhile downvoting the lived experience of a brand new Latter Day Saint in the next. Truly he is amazing. 

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

Yep.  I was offering corrective counsel to overcome literal prejudice by Latter-day Saints.  I'm sort of surprised some find this controversial.  

All hail Smac. Fighting prejudice in one breath, meanwhile downvoting the lived experience of a brand new Latter Day Saint in the next. Truly he is amazing. 

You once again demonstrate the futility of trying to mollify or satisfy relentless faultfinders.  No matter what we do, people like you are never satisfied.  It's darned if we do, darned if we don't.  Heads we lose, tails we lose.  The goalposts endlessly shift further and further away.

For folks like SeekingUnderstanding, anything the Latter-day Saints do is...

 

C'est la vie.  

Thanks

-Smac

Edited February 3, 2023 by smac97

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:50 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Many thanks for sharing this story. When I was an undergraduate student in America, my Latter-day Saint housemates and I one year identified two individuals who were so screwed up that they would be the last people on the planet to ever join the Church. One of them was a journalism student from Texas who regularly used his presence in the student newspaper to scream about the evils of Christianity and -- worst of all, in his mind! -- Latter-day Saints. The other was a woman who had some kind of fatal attraction to my Cherokee housemate, to the point of committing acts that could easily have been classed as sexual assault and stalking. Before the year was out, both of them had become members. It was an important lesson.

For many years now, I have said that, if the Lord is willing to forgive my depravity, then everyone has hope. I had an opportunity back in December to repeat that message. As EQ president, I felt impressed to reach out to a young man who hasn't been to church since he was 12. To my surprise, he responded, and we've had a few exchanges since. In one of the first ones, he asked me if I was going to invite him back to church My reply: 'Only if you want me to'. He then wrote that he doubted God would want him back after all the sins and crimes that he has committed. I assured him that, on a very personal level, I know that He does because He has always wanted me back.

After all, we are all in the same boat when it comes to sin and redemption. I like James's message on this point: 'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill'.

The divisions between eternal kingdoms are not based on any kind of 'hierarchy' of the sins we commit. All sin separates us from God. Instead, what are our motivations for repenting? A man who has to experience the torment of Spirit Prison's temporary hell before he is willing to accept the Saviour's offer of salvation will find himself in the Telestial Kingdom whether the sin he refused to give up was gossiping or murder.

Lastly, any suggestion that this or that person lacks the capacity to fully repent and follow Christ is the doctrine of devils.

About 20 years ago, we helped our son Abogadissimo and his family move to LA. That Sunday we attended church with them at the chapel next to the temple. On the back pew sat a fellow that looked like he had just come in from a homeless camp. He said his name was “ Alleycat” [altered for anonymity but true to an animal name]. He had passed by the church and decided to go in to see what was going on. He looked pretty dirty and wasted.

Two years later we visited them again to witness the baptism of their daughter Sanctissima. When we drove into the parking lot, a young man came running out of the chapel, scooped her up in his arms, and said, “I wouldn’t miss your baptism for the world.” He had such good looks and exuberance that we thought he must be an LDS Hollywood actor. “Hi! I’m Alleycat,” he said to us, shaking our hands vigorously. We had not recognized him. The transformation was astounding.

Now 20 years later, he is sealed to his wife whom he baptized and is a strong voice for the Lord and a dear friend of our son’s family. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’d like to say I was surprised to see your post downvoted by so-called “saints”, but I am not. 

Those downvotes are so wrong.  I can't understand why anyone would do such a thing to someone who is struggling.  Perhaps @Raingirl and @SMAC will explain in their own words why such a tragedy would earn their scorn for a poster who is really struggling.  I would really like to understand such responses by those who claim to be followers of Christ.

 

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You once again demonstrate the futility of trying to mollify or satisfy relentless faultfinders.  No matter what we do, people like you are never satisfied.  It's darned if we do, darned if we don't.  Heads we lose, tails we lose.  The goalposts endlessly shift further and further away.

For folks like SeekingUnderstanding, anything the Latter-day Saints do is...

 

C'est la vie.  

Thanks

-Smac

So why exactly did you downvote Dario's post someone wanting to just give him a hug and know that he is still loved by offering a hug??

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

So why exactly did you downvote Dario's post someone wanting to just give him a hug and know that he is still loved by offering a hug??

Happy to explain!

I read his post too quickly, and somehow neglected to notice the "sometimes" in this part of his comment: "And you are right. Normal (straight) people are sometimes disgusted by gay people."

Once I re-read it, I removed the downvote.

I apologize if my downvote offended you, Dario.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:38 PM, Dario_M said:

Yeah yeah... being gay or lesbian is not easy like you guys can see so clearly in this topic.

We receive a lot of judgements, hate, homofoobie, and sometimes even racisme. People treat you diffirend. And unfortunatly in the church they expect from you that you mary a woman or otherwise have no relationship or sex at all.

This is a problem that you find everywhere. 

When i whas a teenager i lived in a small city in the Netherlands. Alkmaar (not that the name of that city really matters anyway because nobody knows it) But anyway.... i lived there as a teenager and offcourse went to high school in the same hometown. I whas getting bullied so badly at that school. It never had told anyone that i whas gay but they just knew it. They just saw it on me. The way how i looked, how i talked, how i walked, etc. Those where soms horible 4 years i have spend on that school. They have said horible things to me. They have done prity nasty things to me as well. A lot of threats also, a girl there on that school once told me and other classmates that she whas going to stab me. 🔪 With a knife.

This all happends in the Netherlands guys. The Netherlands have such a good reputation about gay people and lesbian people. Everyone seems to think that. Well....think again. The Netherlands is not so gay friendly as people seems to think. If 2 males will walk hand in hand there on the street they will not be save. 

I know this. I have experienced it myself. On my highschool mainly. Every day. I always deny that i whas gay though. And good that i did. But it didn't helpt at all though. They where comming after me. Every day. And they really seem to felt pleasure in doing what they where doing. 

I have never understood why such a large group of people can hate gay people so much. Like on my school. And i still don't understand it. 

Have you checked out Northstar?

https://www.northstarlds.org

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Happy to explain!

I read his post too quickly, and somehow neglected to notice the "sometimes" in this part of his comment: "And you are right. Normal (straight) people are sometimes disgusted by gay people."

Once I re-read it, I removed the downvote.

I apologize if my downvote offended you, Dario.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think the “sometimes” might have been added in with an edit. Because I remember it not having that qualifier the first time I read it. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by bluebell

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’d like to say I was surprised to see your post downvoted by so-called “saints”, but I am not. 

And why are you not suprised? You sound kinda sarcastic also. 

[Dario_M]

40 minutes ago, california boy said:

Those downvotes are so wrong.  I can't understand why anyone would do such a thing to someone who is struggling.  Perhaps @Raingirl and @SMAC will explain in their own words why such a tragedy would earn their scorn for a poster who is really struggling.  I would really like to understand such responses by those who claim to be followers of Christ.

 

Yeah. Btw Raingirl is downvoting everything what i post. 

[Dario_M]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you checked out Northstar?

https://www.northstarlds.org

Offcourse i have checked it. But i don't really understand it.

I mean.... are this members of the church? Or have they became ex mormons? That is at least the first type of information i wanna know. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Quote

I read his post too quickly, and somehow neglected to notice the "sometimes" in this part of his comment: "And you are right. Normal (straight) people are sometimes disgusted by gay people."

I think the “sometimes” might have been added in with an edit. Because I remember it not having that qualifier the first time I read it. 

Huh.  So the original statement was (or may have been) categorical?  "Normal (straight) people are disgusted by gay people."?

The qualifier sure changes the meaning of the statement quite a bit.  But even then, it's still a broad and ugly stereotype levied against heterosexual people.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 3, 2023 by smac97

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So the original statement was (or may have been) categorical?  "Normal (straight) people are disgusted by gay people."?

The qualifier sure changes the meaning of the statement quite a bit.  But even then, it's still a broad and ugly stereotype levied against heterosexual people.

Thanks,

-Smac

That's how I remember reading it. 

I'm sure Dario added the qualifier as soon as he realized what he had written; I've done similar things in the past and had to go back and edit to be more fair and to match what I meant but what didn't come out in the words I typed. 

But yeah, when I read it right after it was posted, I was annoyed because obviously not all straight people are that way.  If I read it correctly and it was edited, I'm glad that he came back and changed it.

[Dario_M]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So the original statement was (or may have been) categorical?  "Normal (straight) people are disgusted by gay people."?

The qualifier sure changes the meaning of the statement quite a bit.  But even then, it's still a broad and ugly stereotype levied against heterosexual people.

Thanks,

-Smac

I didn't say that at all. I said "some straight people" are disgusted by gay people. 

-Dario_M

Edited February 3, 2023 by Dario_M

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

You once again demonstrate the futility of trying to mollify or satisfy relentless faultfinders. 

Says the person who thinks nothing of leveling accusations of child molestor and sex offender at people just because they are gay. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

And why are you not suprised? You sound kinda sarcastic also. 

I’m not surprised because I’ve read too many of SMAC’s posts on gay issues. And sarcasm is my go to coping mechanism. Something I should work on for sure. 

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So the original statement was (or may have been) categorical?  "Normal (straight) people are disgusted by gay people."?

The qualifier sure changes the meaning of the statement quite a bit.  But even then, it's still a broad and ugly stereotype levied against heterosexual people.

Thanks,

-Smac

After all the times you have equivocated about homosexuality and pedophilia and done the same about lesibianism and criminality in this very thread I find myself unable to take your umbrage about how mean it is to generalize about straight people seriously so I will chuckle and roll my eyes instead. Oh, and straight people are WEIRD!

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you checked out Northstar?

https://www.northstarlds.org

Stay completely away from all of these reparative therapy groups. Northstar is just the latest version of Evergreen, another LDS reparative therapy group that absolutely has been debunked.  I spent time in Evergreen when I came out, mostly because my family wanted me to.  I even flew down to Los Angeles regularly to see David Matheson for a period of time to go through his "therapy"sessions.  I went to him because he was actually the one who wrote the manual for the Church's Evergreen program.  He sat directly across from me swearing how he used to be gay but is now happily married and is no longer gay.  He promised me the same results.  Yeah, it is all a bunch of crap and has been completely debunked.  

Quote

Matheson then confirmed Wyler’s assertions on Tuesday with a Facebook post of his own. “A year ago I realized I had to make substantial changes in my life. I realized I couldn’t stay in my marriage any longer. And I realized that it was time for me to affirm myself as gay,” he wrote.

Matheson, who was married to a woman for 34 years and is now divorced, also confirmed in an interview with NBC News that he is now dating men.

So-called gay conversion therapy, which is sometimes referred to as “ex-gay therapy” or “reparative therapy,” is a pseudoscientific practice that seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

Quote

Matheson acknowledged his work has hurt some people, but he would not fully renounce “conversion therapy.” Instead, he blamed what he referred to as the “shame-based, homophobic-based system” of the Mormon church in which he was raised. He acknowledged that he perpetuated that system, but he also argued that he helped some men who wished to live “in congruence” with their faith.

 

A similar group, Exodus International was geared to sucking in other Christians into believing they could change from being gay to being straight.  After 38 years of defrauding and preying on gay men, Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International closed down the organization.  

 

Quote

 

Alan Chambers said that the board made the move "after a year of dialogue and prayer about the organization's place in a changing culture."^[23] Chambers repudiated one part of the organization's mission in a nearly hour-long talk at Exodus International's 38th annual meeting:^[24]

I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn't change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.^[6]

 

Dario, I am not telling you how to live your life, or what the best path for you is.  But I am telling you loud and clear, before you embark upon any of these "change the gays" type organizations, investigate for yourself before you become involved.

I would also say to Bernard, you better be very sure when you make such a recommendation that what you are recommending is something that you really know what you are recommending.  Just because it is under the banner of the Church (as was Evergreen) does not mean in any way that it is not just a bunch of crap that can actually be very destructive to someone who is gay.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Stay completely away from all of these reparative therapy groups. Northstar is just the latest version of Evergreen, another LDS reparative therapy group that absolutely has been debunked.  I spent time in Evergreen when I came out, mostly because my family wanted me to.  I even flew down to Los Angeles regularly to see David Matheson for a period of time to go through his "therapy"sessions.  I went to him because he was actually the one who wrote the manual for the Church's Evergreen program.  He sat directly across from me swearing how he used to be gay but is now happily married and is no longer gay.  He promised me the same results.  Yeah, it is all a bunch of crap and has been completely debunked.  

 

A similar group, Exodus International was geared to sucking in other Christians into believing they could change from being gay to being straight.  After 38 years of defrauding and preying on gay men, Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International closed down the organization.  

 

 

Dario, I am not telling you how to live your life, or what the best path for you is.  But I am telling you loud and clear, before you embark upon any of these "change the gays" type organizations, investigate for yourself before you become involved.

I would also say to Bernard, you better be very sure when you make such a recommendation that what you are recommending is something that you really know what you are recommending.  Just because it is under the banner of the Church (as was Evergreen) does not mean in any way that it is not just a bunch of crap that can actually be very destructive to someone who is gay.

This. Be careful Dario. While Northstar is not a conversion program itself last I heard they were still sponsored by conversion groups.

Checking their website their official position has shifted to “no position” which I would guess means they can still be sponsored by ‘conversion therapy’ groups.

[smac97]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

After all the times you have equivocated about homosexuality and pedophilia

I have never done that.

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

and done the same about lesibianism and criminality in this very thread

I haven't done that, either.

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I find myself unable to take your umbrage about how mean it is to generalize about straight people seriously

I hold your opinion in such low regard that I lend it no probative meaning or weight.

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

so I will chuckle and roll my eyes instead. Oh, and straight people are WEIRD!

Again, you essentially never have anything thoughtful or substantive to contribute.  Just glib insults, cheapshots, and attempts to provoke and offend.   

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Says the person who thinks nothing of leveling accusations of child molestor and sex offender at people just because they are gay. 

I haven't done that.  And I think doing that would be quite wrong.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Quote

Huh.  So the original statement was (or may have been) categorical?  "Normal (straight) people are disgusted by gay people."?

The qualifier sure changes the meaning of the statement quite a bit.  But even then, it's still a broad and ugly stereotype levied against heterosexual people.

I didn't say that at all. I said "some straight people" are disgusted by gay people. 

-Dario_M

Then you were stating a truism, such that my retraction and apology remain appropriate.

Thank you for your clarification.  I hope you accept mine.

Thanks,

-Smac