Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Speaking to a recent thread, that I can no longer locate.


Recommended Posts

A week or two ago, a thread was posted about a Priesthood Leader, in memory serves. The thread was about someone telling a member to not marry a black member, telling them the black, men and women are cursed. 

It is so very unfortunate that things like this still occur in today’s world. Having grown up is the “Deep South”, in the 50’s, 60’s, and early 70’s, I have seen such behavior before. Twice, my mother made us leave our small Church, (small via our building size, and intelligence). On two occasions we had Black people show up, because they were new to the area, to see where they could attend Church, only to be asked to leave. The Deacons were kind enough, they just issued cards of the locations of African American Churches, in the area, 
 

My wife and I display the picture of her great grandfather, standing next to his Mulatto wife. Meaning, for those who do not know the term Mulatto means, (in this case) her great grandmother’s mother was Black, and her great grandmother’s father was white. We have the picture because no one else wanted it, in her family. They were raised to believe she was Native American. She also has a great-great-great mother who os Cherokee. 
 

Countless Churches believe that all Black people are cursed, not just our own many years ago. Also, I pray that whomever said the someone who did this, no longer holds any “Leadership Position”, in the Church. If so, I can only hope that he, or she, is released. 
 

One thing to remember, everything that I love in this world, have African blood in their veins. I love them with all of my being, and they are in no way cursed, in no way, My love for my wife, 47 years just yesterday, my four children, and my 8 grandchildren, and one just two months being born, I also love my son-in-laws, and daughter-in-laws. On Christmas, when 17 or our family was at the house. While sitting next to her, I whispered in my wife’s ear, “Just look what we have built, and the joy we reap almost every Sunday dinner, after Church”. 
 

It has been a long while, so please forgive and errors. I have missed you all, my IPad broke, so I have been gone awhile, although probably have not been missed. No worries, I never miss me either. 

Link to comment

Was it in the "In The News" forum?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75061-black-member-told-she-cant-marry-a-white-member-because-her-seed-is-cursed/

My mother was friends with a Black family, we lived in the South, and shortly after the ban was lifted in 1978 my mother invited her friend's entire congregation (about 30 people) to come to our ward on Sunday. They accepted and showed up for Sunday School!

Unfortunately the ward members were not very receptive.  My mother was asked by one of the leaders in the ward, I have forgotten who, to never do that again.  (I was away at college so I missed out bigtime.)

Mom grew up in the deep South with presumably all the prejudices that implies (she was born in 1934).  At the time I didn't recognize and appreciate how quick she was to re-draw her road map once Official Declaration 2 came out.  Way to go, Mom! 

 

Edited by manol
Link to comment
37 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

has been a long while, so please forgive and errors. I have missed you all, my IPad broke, so I have been gone awhile, although probably have not been missed. No worries, I never miss me either. 

Was worried it was you who was broken, much nicer to hear it was your IPad.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Calm said:

Was worried it was you who was broken, much nicer to hear it was your IPad.

Thank you, but I was not upset, I am a small contributor to this website. 

I am just post the funny things of Facebook. 

I love this place, but more and more, but I hardly post any content. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, manol said:

Was it in the "In The News" forum?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75061-black-member-told-she-cant-marry-a-white-member-because-her-seed-is-cursed/

My mother was friends with a Black family, we lived in the South, and shortly after the ban was lifted in 1978 my mother invited her friend's entire congregation (about 30 people) to come to our ward on Sunday. They accepted and showed up for Sunday School!

Unfortunately the ward members were not very receptive.  My mother was asked by one of the leaders in the ward, I have forgotten who, to never do that again.  (I was away at college so I missed out bigtime.)

Mom grew up in the deep South with presumably all the prejudices that implies (she was born in 1934).  At the time I didn't recognize and appreciate how quick she was to re-draw her road map once Official Declaration 2 came out.  Way to go, Mom! 

 

Are you speaking of conditions recently? 

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Are you speaking of conditions recently? 

If you're asking about the thread I linked to, I didn't read the article and quit reading the thread after a few of the initial posts.   I am uncertain about the timeframe of the incident in the article. 

If you're asking about when my mom invited 30 members of a local all-Black church to Sunday School, that was in the fall or early winter of 1978.   

Edited by manol
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

A week or two ago, a thread was posted about a Priesthood Leader, in memory serves. The thread was about someone telling a member to not marry a black member, telling them the black, men and women are cursed. 

It is so very unfortunate that things like this still occur in today’s world. Having grown up is the “Deep South”, in the 50’s, 60’s, and early 70’s, I have seen such behavior before. Twice, my mother made us leave our small Church, (small via our building size, and intelligence). On two occasions we had Black people show up, because they were new to the area, to see where they could attend Church, only to be asked to leave. The Deacons were kind enough, they just issued cards of the locations of African American Churches, in the area, 
 

My wife and I display the picture of her great grandfather, standing next to his Mulatto wife. Meaning, for those who do not know the term Mulatto means, (in this case) her great grandmother’s mother was Black, and her great grandmother’s father was white. We have the picture because no one else wanted it, in her family. They were raised to believe she was Native American. She also has a great-great-great mother who os Cherokee. 
 

Countless Churches believe that all Black people are cursed, not just our own many years ago. Also, I pray that whomever said the someone who did this, no longer holds any “Leadership Position”, in the Church. If so, I can only hope that he, or she, is released. 
 

One thing to remember, everything that I love in this world, have African blood in their veins. I love them with all of my being, and they are in no way cursed, in no way, My love for my wife, 47 years just yesterday, my four children, and my 8 grandchildren, and one just two months being born, I also love my son-in-laws, and daughter-in-laws. On Christmas, when 17 or our family was at the house. While sitting next to her, I whispered in my wife’s ear, “Just look what we have built, and the joy we reap almost every Sunday dinner, after Church”. 
 

It has been a long while, so please forgive and errors. I have missed you all, my IPad broke, so I have been gone awhile, although probably have not been missed. No worries, I never miss me either. 

Good to see you back!

I missed you and hoped you'd be back :)

 

Link to comment

You know in the original story of Ham being cursed by God and having a mark out upon him, it doesn't say it was a black skin, so how has a dark skin been equated with this curse, and wasn't the mark put on him not only as part of the curse but also in case anyone should kill Ham and therefore become cursed themselves? I don't understand how that conclusion was arrived at. Did the LDS church support this view, or does it?

Quick edit: the curse was upon Ham's son Canaan, not Ham himself.

Sorry, another quick edit: I am confusing Ham with Cain who had a mark put on him. I've just read the relevent passage, but nowhere does it mention a mark. It says Canaan was cursed with servitude to his uncles and their people, so it seems an even greater leap to equate the curse with a black skin. Sorry about the edits.

Edited by Orthodox Christian
Link to comment

Another mistake of reading a curse into verses that isn’t there….

Misreading Scripture With Western Eyes (page 59-61) makes the point that Miriam and Aaron aren’t upset with Moses because he has married a black African wife, a Cushite who is a member of a cursed, slave race. Cushites were viewed as a strong warrior race, not slaves. It was the Hebrews who had been slaves up till very recently. His siblings were pissed off because they thought Moses was putting in airs, acting like he was too good for them by not marrying a Hebrew woman, but someone from the upper class, a Cushite whose family or at least countrymen were elite soldiers. 

Link to comment
18 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

You know in the original story of Ham being cursed by God and having a mark out upon him, it doesn't say it was a black skin, so how has a dark skin been equated with this curse, and wasn't the mark put on him not only as part of the curse but also in case anyone should kill Ham and therefore become cursed themselves? I don't understand how that conclusion was arrived at. Did the LDS church support this view, or does it?

Quick edit: the curse was upon Ham's son Canaan, not Ham himself.

Sorry, another quick edit: I am confusing Ham with Cain who had a mark put on him. I've just read the relevent passage, but nowhere does it mention a mark. It says Canaan was cursed with servitude to his uncles and their people, so it seems an even greater leap to equate the curse with a black skin. Sorry about the edits.

Cain had some visible mark, and its an ancient idea that the Cainites survived the flood, and the prime suspect was by Ham's wife, and at least some of his descendants were called "black" and settled in Africa, such as Kush (which means 'Black') settled in northern Africa and fathered Nimrod. Jews told the Greeks they were descended from Japheth.

LDS scripture contributes that Ham married a woman named Egyptus which meant "forbidden" and Sethites were forbidden to marry Cainites. Enoch sees into the future that Canaan, after “much heat”, that was to come upon their land, a blackness “came upon” the children of Canaan. But we've since have had Biblical scholars tell us none-racial Biblical interpretations for why the same races of people frequently change back and forth from "black" to "white" in the Bible and other near-eastern literature.

It's been an ancient historical myth that the Canaanites were discolored in someway. But depending who you ask there are variant racial/racist theories out there, like Black religions with very interesting claims about being the true Jews and the whiteness curses, albinos, the sheep and the goats interpreted as curry hair and straight hair... I must say, I was way more fascinated than offended by the idea.

Link to comment
7 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

an ancient idea that the Cainites survived the flood, and the prime suspect was by Ham's wife, and at least some of his descendants were called "black"

CFR that it is ancient (unless you mean from the PoGP) please

Quote

been an ancient historical myth that the Canaanites were discolored in someway.

On this one too please.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Calm said:

CFR that it is ancient (unless you mean from the PoGP) please

Eh, Homework. Well first coming to mind are Rabbinical sources about King Og of Bashan, Goliath, and other Rephaim tribes among the Canaanites were descendants of the Cainite Nephilim that survived the flood. I know they are in the book "Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism (2004)". Which I own and could get more references from it.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

On this one too please.

Origen said Ham's descendants were a "discolored posterity" (Origen, Genesis Homily XVI)

Augustine and Ambrose of Milan also thought Hamites carried a curse associated with a darkness of skin and it was a widespread belief shared among Jews, Muslims and Christians. According to Stephen R. Haynes', "Noah's Curse: The Biblical Justification of American Slavery (2002)".

I don't own that book, though in my private search for why, I believe that it may have to do with that some of Ham's sons might be named after literal "colors". Just as Kush means black, the meaning of Canaanite and Phoenician by the Greeks, means purple or dark red.

Edited by Pyreaux
Link to comment
32 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Eh, Homework. Well first coming to mind are Rabbinical sources about King Og of Bashan, Goliath, and other Rephaim tribes among the Canaanites were descendants of the Cainite Nephilim that survived the flood. I know they are in the book "Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism (2004)". Which I own and could get more references from it.

Origen said Ham's descendants were a "discolored posterity" (Origen, Genesis Homily XVI)

Augustine and Ambrose of Milan also thought Hamites carried a curse associated with a darkness of skin and it was a widespread belief shared among Jews, Muslims and Christians. According to Stephen R. Haynes', "Noah's Curse: The Biblical Justification of American Slavery (2002)".

I don't own that book, though in my private search for why, I believe that it may have to do with that some of Ham's sons might be named after literal "colors". Just as Kush means black, the meaning of Canaanite and Phoenician by the Greeks, means purple or dark red.

Appreciate the additional context, I had tried to track down when the mark was first associated with skin color in Judaism, if ever, but didn’t dig very deeply.

Link to comment
21 hours ago, Calm said:

Appreciate the additional context, I had tried to track down when the mark was first associated with skin color in Judaism, if ever, but didn’t dig very deeply.

In the Azazel's Nephilim seed narrative, though the Nephilim were thought to survive through the Rephaim, it is also thought the Rephaim were successfully all put down in the Bible, when the Hebrew word Rephaim suddenly changed from describing people to only mean "the dead/ghosts".

The second thing I just now remember, and I'm not sure where to start finding it right now, it's very similar and more relevant rabbinical tradition, the Serpent's seed narrative. Lore that Samiel (a wicked angel, the "poison of God") possessed the serpent to impregnate Eve. Eve gave birth to Cain with the "help/aid of God", rabbis say it infers an angel (Samiel) impregnated her with Cain. From this there remains today an impure serpent seed in humanity, that seems to randomly manifest, even among the Israelite people (that the deadly 40-year trek, was to filter impure seed among themselves). It is thought that this appears in the New Testament, the Pharisees get called such phrases as "sons of vipers" and "your father the devil" seems to be from that tradition.

Though the tradition might be not referring to direct descendants, it would make sense that if that has any merit, they are perhaps the doctrinal/spiritual successors of the serpent through Cain, like the Gnostic Cainites. Samiel and Azazel have very similar stories, some think they could be the same. Azazel also delivered forbidden knowledge to humanity that corrupted them. However, I think the prophets and rabbis thematically repeat an old original story and apply it to new situations. Belial, Rahab, Samiel, Azazel, Dumah of Egypt, Helel/Lucifer of Babylon, the celestial Prince of Persia, the celestial prince of Tyre, and the Red Dragon all have crossover rebellions and falls, yet clearly separate spiritual beings and timelines.

Edited by Pyreaux
Link to comment
On 2/1/2023 at 3:49 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

You know in the original story of Ham being cursed by God and having a mark out upon him, it doesn't say it was a black skin, so how has a dark skin been equated with this curse, and wasn't the mark put on him not only as part of the curse but also in case anyone should kill Ham and therefore become cursed themselves? I don't understand how that conclusion was arrived at. Did the LDS church support this view, or does it?

Quick edit: the curse was upon Ham's son Canaan, not Ham himself.

Sorry, another quick edit: I am confusing Ham with Cain who had a mark put on him. I've just read the relevent passage, but nowhere does it mention a mark. It says Canaan was cursed with servitude to his uncles and their people, so it seems an even greater leap to equate the curse with a black skin. Sorry about the edits.

For the history of this line of interpretation, and its significance for both the Bible and the LDS scriptures, see this important review of two books by Jewish scholars:

http://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-curse-of-ham-race-and-slavery-in-early-judaism-christianity-and-islam-noahs-curse-the-biblical-justification-of-american-slavery/

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg PA

 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...