Trib Article: BYU faculty members urged to align their teaching, research better with LDS tenets

[ttribe]

My Master's degree from BYU has, for the most part, served me quite well in my career as BYU's accounting program is considered excellent. That being said, there is a stigma associated with that degree as well (I've recounted on this board an example incident in a court room when I was stating my academic qualifications as an expert); this kind of public move toward required orthodoxy will likely increase that stigma.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:27 PM, california boy said:

I graduated in 1974

I would agree that there are a lot of BYU grands that are quite successful, me being one of them.

The professors I mentioned made the same choice to step away from very successful careers, take a cut in pay because they too wanted to help the cause of Zion.  But part of the reason why they were willing to make such a commitment is because BYU promised them a pretty free hand on how they designed the courses they taught and what part of their real world experience they could bring to those students.  I am just not sure they would be willing to walk away from their successful careers if they thought some bishop could remove them from their tenure based on the church leaders judgement of what they believed.

In the end, my opinion doesn't matter.  And only time will tell how this policy affects the faculty and teaching caliber at BYU.  We will also see if it changes the students involvement at BYU and the Church for better or for worse.  I am pretty skeptical that the vast majority of young members leaving the Church has anything to do with something some professor said in class one day.  But hey, maybe Church leaders have pinpointed the exact cause of so many youth leaving.

Thank you. My son is also very successful as an art supervisor for a video game company.

I think that is pretty standard practice when recruiting people from business into academia. I doubt that being given a free hand at BYU includes winking at playing fast and loose with doctrine or appropriate behavior.

Edited February 8 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:59 AM, MustardSeed said:

I think there are many people who live their whole lives happily without addressing or even meeting those challenging ideas.  The church is so all encompassing that truly there are such people.  They are happy.  Good for them ❤️ BYU is a perfect match. 

Most of the people in the world live their lives happily without addressing or meeting challenging ideas [EDIT]. Unless of course, the issue is coming out of a gun barrel owned by the person with the challenging idea.

Edited February 8 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes- If we assume the church is The Truth, then all truth will lead to the church. Makes sense to me. 

It is true that a Chinese spy ballon traversed our country’s air space and was shot down over the ocean after completing its mission; therefore, the Church must be true. 😏

Edited February 7 by Bernard Gui

[Lemuel]

5 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Forgive me, I don't think having a temple recommend is too much to ask of BYU professors. And asking them to explore their topics with an eye to highlighting how Latter-day Saint thought interacts with those topics is not too much to ask either. I don't buy that narrative.  

Nor, frankly, do I buy the narrative that this indicates that BYU is planning to wrap students in a baby blanket. On the contrary, I see a call to boldly confront the world as it is, to chart the ragged edge where Latter-day Saint thought meets the chaotic world, to stake out forward positions in the great rhetorical battles of our time. The idea that this is somehow a retrenchment is an artifact of a narrative which takes our defeat for granted. 

There is a difficult matter that follows from this combined with the fact that there are certain sins that the leaders require confession to a bishop and removal of a temple recommend for true repentance.

If repentance requires losing the TR and hence one's job (and likely having to relocate one's family), few will "repent" in this sense.

--"But if I leave his employ, what will become of me?"

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

My Master's degree from BYU has, for the most part, served me quite well in my career as BYU's accounting program is considered excellent. That being said, there is a stigma associated with that degree as well (I've recounted on this board an example incident in a court room when I was stating my academic qualifications as an expert); this kind of public move toward required orthodoxy will likely increase that stigma.

There would be no stigma if your expertise was based on your accounting degree from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople?

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The vast majority of the people in the world live their lives happily without addressing or meeting challenging issues. Unless of course, the issue is coming out of a gun barrel.

Really?  Hm.  Not sure I agree but I do have a different perspective. 👍

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’d count myself as one of the successes.  Both my under and post grad degrees were from BYU. 
 

It was a solid education.  It was cheaper than attending elsewhere.  It was easy to find social experiences sans drugs alcohol and sexpectations.  
 

I didn’t have any idea that anything else was even optional (morally).  I am much more clear now.  There are many facets to my work that suffer because of some of the limits of my religious based education.  

There was no way to make up for the deficiencies?

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

There would be no stigma if your expertise was based on your accounting degree from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople?

Well, like it or not, there are certain stereotypes attached to you once you reveal you are a BYU alum (for better or for worse). My example I shared before involved a divorce case in which I was retained by an attorney who is a BYU Law grad. When I stated that my terminal degree was from BYU for the record the opposing party and her attorney openly scoffed. The clear implication was that I would say whatever the fellow BYU alum attorney told me to say. Again, like it or not, where I live there is a perception that the "Mormons stick together" and the derogatory phrase "Mormon Mafia" is often heard in both business and legal circles.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

There was no way to make up for the deficiencies?

Had the program offered a “world” view I’d have been more prepared and a better professional. I’ve had to learn much of it via hard knocks. Which is fine, but much of my catch up would have been addressed at other universities. 

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, like it or not, there are certain stereotypes attached to you once you reveal you are a BYU alum (for better or for worse). My example I shared before involved a divorce case in which I was retained by an attorney who is a BYU Law grad. When I stated that my terminal degree was from BYU for the record the opposing party and her attorney openly scoffed. The clear implication was that I would say whatever the fellow BYU alum attorney told me to say. Again, like it or not, where I live there is a perception that the "Mormons stick together" and the derogatory phrase "Mormon Mafia" is often heard in both business and legal circles.

I have been told by potential clients that they skipped past my profile when seeing my degrees were from BYU.  Most people don’t care if I even have a degree, but the slant is out there in small numbers. As far as I know. 
 

There have also been clients who have hired me because I’m an active member.  It’s probably a wash. 

Edited February 7 by MustardSeed

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Had the program offered a “world” view I’d have been more prepared and a better professional. I’ve had to learn much of it via hard knocks. Which is fine, but much of my catch up would have been addressed at other universities. 

Is that the fault of religious influence at BYU?

[MustardSeed]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Is that the fault of religious influence at BYU?

Yes. I’m not upset about it -? I chose BYU.  I am grateful for my degrees and my career. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you. My son is also very successful as an art supervisor for a video game company.

I think that is pretty standard practice when recruiting people from business into academia. I doubt that being given a free hand at BYU in ludes winking at playing fast and loose with doctrine or appropriate behavior.

I doubt that too.  

[california boy]

5 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I don't get that impression. But then again, I am in something of a privileged epistemic position. I know Dr. Collings personally. I haven't discussed this with him, but based on our prior acquaintance and what I have learned of him, I have a confidence similar to Professor Handley's. This is an encouragement to explicitly apply Latter-day Saint thought to contemporary fields of study. It's fashionable today to approach fields of study through a multiplicity of explicitly labelled perspectives: feminist perspectives on Field of Study X, decolonialist, Catholic social teaching, pragmatist, Jewish, etc. I think Collings is pushing for BYU to become the seedbed of distinctly Latter-day Saint approaches to various fields of study which explicitly incorporate and take from Latter-day Saint thought and experiences. It's a reminder to "look unto Christ in every thought", applied to the life of the mind. 

Interesting.  Thanks for that.  It makes a little more sense to me now.  Just not sure where the Bishops role in a professors tenure other than issuing a temple recommend.

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, california boy said:

Interesting.  Thanks for that.  It makes a little more sense to me now.  Just not sure where the Bishops role in a professors tenure other than issuing a temple recommend.

I can get behind this concern , But a bishop also has to approve of a student attending.  I would hope that a bishop would not get in the way of somebody’s career goals if they pass the test for the temple recommend, Student or professor. I’ve never been concerned about that before and can’t imagine that it would be an issue moving forward. That said, that is quite a bit of power given to a layperson

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I can get behind this concern , But a bishop also has to approve of a student attending.  I would hope that a bishop would not get in the way of somebody’s career goals if they pass the test for the temple recommend, Student or professor. I’ve never been concerned about that before and can’t imagine that it would be an issue moving forward. That said, that is quite a bit of power given to a layperson

I think it would make more sense if the bishop didn't have such complete power.  A person should be able to disagree with their bishop and that bishop's pulling of their endorsement should be reviewable. 

I have a friend who's bishop pulled her endorsement and she was immediately fired.  The bishop (who was newly called at the time) then changed his mind after speaking with her (and after realizing he didn't understand the ramifications of his actions), but BYU would not change their mind at that point.

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it would make more sense if the bishop didn't have such complete power.  A person should be able to disagree with their bishop and that bishop's pulling of their endorsement should be reviewable. 

I have a friend who's bishop pulled her endorsement and she was immediately fired.  The bishop (who was newly called at the time) then changed his mind after speaking with her (and after realizing he didn't understand the ramifications of his actions), but BYU would not change their mind at that point.

Tragic!  
One of my best friends is a bishop right now and he failed to sign off on somebody’s endorsement in time to get acceptance to begin the semester. It really screwed the student up- My friend is mortified by the whole thing but he is a human being and he is also a very busy full-time lawyer and sometimes those calling details get a little lost in the shuffle understandably. I’m with you on that Bluebell

[Chum]

20 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Putting one’s academic future in the heavy hands of disgruntled agenda-driven students

I can recall a time when students were the point of universities.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is true that a Chinese spy ballon traversed our country’s air space and was shot down over the ocean after completing its mission; therefore, the Church must be true. 😏

It was a close escape.

Emotional terrorism is serious.

 

Edited February 8 by The Nehor

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It was a close escape.

Emotional terrorism is serious.

 

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

Interesting.  Thanks for that.  It makes a little more sense to me now.  Just not sure where the Bishops role in a professors tenure other than issuing a temple recommend.

Because only the bishop can issue a temple recommend to a member of his ward.

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it would make more sense if the bishop didn't have such complete power.  A person should be able to disagree with their bishop and that bishop's pulling of their endorsement should be reviewable. 

I have a friend who's bishop pulled her endorsement and she was immediately fired.  The bishop (who was newly called at the time) then changed his mind after speaking with her (and after realizing he didn't understand the ramifications of his actions), but BYU would not change their mind at that point.

It is reviewable. Talk with the stake president.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Chum said:

I can recall a time when students were the point of universities.

 Please explain.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, like it or not, there are certain stereotypes attached to you once you reveal you are a BYU alum (for better or for worse). My example I shared before involved a divorce case in which I was retained by an attorney who is a BYU Law grad. When I stated that my terminal degree was from BYU for the record the opposing party and her attorney openly scoffed. The clear implication was that I would say whatever the fellow BYU alum attorney told me to say. Again, like it or not, where I live there is a perception that the "Mormons stick together" and the derogatory phrase "Mormon Mafia" is often heard in both business and legal circles.

That speaks of their prejudice. Hopefully the judge shut it down.  The same could be said about other religions, minorities, social clubs, neighborhoods, etc.