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How respectful is "prayer language"?


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On 1/31/2023 at 3:35 PM, Rain said:

I didn't explain that well.  You said, "Since I never use those words for every day conversation, I feel they set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations. "

I assume you, personally, might talk to your wife, kids or a close friend (whoever you feel close to who speaks Spanish) about laundry or a movie you want to see etc using the tu form.  

With English you only use those forms in prayer. In Spanish you use them in a variety of conversation.  Do you feel you are missing something or not setting the time apart with God when you pray in Spanish since you don't use those forms only in prayer or do your Spanish prayers have no difference for you than your English prayers?

I don’t speak Spanish with my family, nor do I speak to them using thee or thou, unless it is to quote Shakespeare love sonnets to Sister Gui.  “ Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate.” 😉 But if we spoke Spanish I would use the appropriate forms.

My BIL was Latin American, but we never spoke in Spanish. I only hear or say prayers in Spanish now at missionary reunions. In our mission of 4-6 countries, tu was used in prayer. Personally I envy the Spanish opportunity to speak with God with familiar forms without appearing to be “archaic.”

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 1/31/2023 at 6:08 PM, mfbukowski said:

Wow, I didn't realize how close this is to Latin:

PATER noster, qui es in cœlis; sanctificetur nomen tuum: Adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cœlo, et in terra. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie: Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris: et ne nos inducas in tentationem: sed libera nos a malo. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

Ave Maria, gratia plena

Dominus tecum

benedicta tu in mulieri­bus, 

et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus.

Sancta Maria mater Dei,

ora pro nobis peccatoribus, 

nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. 

Amen.”

Dios te salve, Maria.
Llena eres de gracia:
El Señor es contigo.
Bendita tú eres entre todas las mujeres.
Y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre:
Jesús.
Santa María, Madre de Dios,
ruega por nosotros pecadores,
ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
Amén.

On 1/31/2023 at 10:14 PM, Okrahomer said:

By the way:  “Friendly Persuasion” is a fine movie (one of my favorites) and portrays Quakers in a very loving and appealing way.

it would be nice to see such a movie made about the LDS. Brigham Young comes to mind. Dean Jagger, who played Bro Brigham, joined the Church as a result of his experience. Vincent Price as Joseph Smith and John Carradine as Porter Rockwell did not. An excellent movie could be made about Bro Porter. I suggest Jason Momoa as the star.

 

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Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 1/31/2023 at 1:35 PM, Rain said:

I didn't explain that well.  You said, "Since I never use those words for every day conversation, I feel they set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations. "

I assume you, personally, might talk to your wife, kids or a close friend (whoever you feel close to who speaks Spanish) about laundry or a movie you want to see etc using the tu form.  

With English you only use those forms in prayer. In Spanish you use them in a variety of conversation.  Do you feel you are missing something or not setting the time apart with God when you pray in Spanish since you don't use those forms only in prayer or do your Spanish prayers have no difference for you than your English prayers?

 

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t speak Spanish with my family, nor do I speak to them using thee or thou, unless it is to quote Shakespeare love sonnets to Sister Gui.  “ Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate.” 😉 But if we spoke Spanish I would use the appropriate forms.

My BIL was Latin American, but we never spoke in Spanish. I only hear or say prayers in Spanish now at missionary reunions. In our mission of 4-6 countries, tu was used in prayer. Personally I envy the Spanish opportunity to speak with God with familiar forms without appearing to be “archaic.”

 

Ok, but are you understanding my question? 

If you spoke Spanish with those who are close to you I would assume you would use tu form right?  Do you think you would be missing something in your Spanish prayers because you would use tu form with others and it wouldn't  be set apart like with English prayers where thou sets prayer apart?

Or in other words would this be true for you:

"Since I never use thee and thou for every day conversation, I feel they set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations.  In Spanish since I would use tu form if I spoke Spanish to those close to me I feel it would not set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations and I think I would feel something is missing."

 

Still not trying to argue. Just trying to understand you feelings.

 

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17 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

Ok, but are you understanding my question? 

If you spoke Spanish with those who are close to you I would assume you would use tu form right?  Do you think you would be missing something in your Spanish prayers because you would use tu form with others and it wouldn't  be set apart like with English prayers where thou sets prayer apart?

Or in other words would this be true for you:

"Since I never use thee and thou for every day conversation, I feel they set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations.  In Spanish since I would use tu form if I spoke Spanish to those close to me I feel it would not set apart conversations with God from worldly conversations and I think I would feel something is missing."

 

Still not trying to argue. Just trying to understand you feelings.

 

Thank you for your questions. 🙂

I said, “But if we spoke Spanish I would use the appropriate forms.” That would be the tu forms because of grammar rulesI would also use them in prayer because that is one of their uses. No, I don’t think that speaking familiarly in conversations in close relationships would affect my feelings of prayer in Spanish.

Tu is used in the most intimate relationships. Granted, I am not a native Spanish speaker, so there are linguistic and cultural nuances with which I am not familiar. I could not speak for a person steeped in that experience. To tell the truth, I have never asked a native speaker to explain. It’s just a given but there may be more to it having to do with Catholicism?

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

That is precisely what I have said all along, but you have claimed tu is not used in prayer. I don’t believe that is correct. Paz.

I don't believe so. You must have misunderstood my position. "Tu" is all we say in Spanish and "vocês" in Portuguese. There is no "thee" or "thou" equivalent in those languages. That was precisely my initial response to the OP.

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13 minutes ago, Islander said:

I don't believe so. You must have misunderstood my position. "Tu" is all we say in Spanish and "vocês" in Portuguese. There is no "thee" or "thou" equivalent in those languages. That was precisely my initial response to the OP.

Then we have been talking past each other.

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6 hours ago, Islander said:

"Tu" is all we say in Spanish and "vocês" in Portuguese. There is no "thee" or "thou" equivalent in those languages.

Except that one uses tu when praying in Portuguese, which in Brazil is exactly equivalent to using thou in English.

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16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Except that one uses tu when praying in Portuguese, which in Brazil is exactly equivalent to using thou in English.

I don't think so. "Tu" is used to address only one person and primarily someone you have a level of comfort with in general. Like your family members or close friends of you own age. Mostly in the south. It also used casually as "listen" as in "check this out" or "hey!". There is nothing formal about it, friend. Eu morava com meu padrinho por 12 anos no Curitiba. Eu falo o idioma muito bem.

I think we got ourselves into the weeds on this one. Like I mentioned before, I think most already made up their minds about the subject of the OP. So, let's just all be friends and move on to more substantive subjects. Let each pray in their language with a sincere heart as they know how and with the earnest desire to please our God and Father. 

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:7-8

 

Edited by Islander
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I think prayer language varies by speaker. One should use the most respectful, humble speech patterns they can articulate with understanding. "Hey God" just doesn't carry the proper respect that "Father in Heaven," "God Almighty," or "Dear Heavenly Father" does. Likewise, "mister" and "sir" wouldn't do deity justice. "Thee,"  "Thou," and "Thine" are appropriate for deity because they are not used for any other designation in modern speech. It seems archaic, but the odd part is that we ever used elevated words with ordinary people in the first place--think wealthy aristocrats and kings or of any century. 

When it comes to instructing children or newbies in prayer, the overarching truth is that one should pray to God whom they are dependent upon. Once that concept is accepted, the speaker should understand basic prayer structure: Address God respectfully and with humility, converse with God, and close the conversation in the name of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because it is upon His sacrifice that anyone can address God in the first place. And this conversation takes place with the most respectful, humble speech that the speaker understands. If they get the basics, let them work out their own relationship from there. 

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