How respectful is "prayer language"?

[The Great Pretender]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Do what brings you closer to Him. Imo

Except I dare not ditch it in meetings because people will judge me. If you are a member of any longevity, you will know this to be the case.

In my family prayers, I now avoid it without things becoming awkward. Instead of saying, "We thank thee," I now say, "We are grateful." Stuff like that. It's mentally exhausting, though, to be honest.

Edited January 29, 2023 by The Great Pretender

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

Except I dare not ditch it in meetings because people will judge me. If you are a member of any longevity, you will know this to be the case.

In my family prayers, I now avoid it without things becoming awkward. Instead of saying, "We thank thee," I now say, "We are grateful." Stuff like that. It's mentally exhausting, though, to be honest.

Do what works for you, if compliance works. 
 

Personally I don’t like to be the one to push a lot of social issues that do no harm.  I like to be respectful for others comforts- I wear dresses to church, and I dress up for other cultural events. I don’t think it’s necessary , nor is formality in speech imo, but it in my mind shows respect do “when in Rome”. If it’s an issue for you, and you don’t care if it’s uncomfortable for others, I’d say your sense of what’s right or wrong trumps others’ judgement.  

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, The Great Pretender said:

My comments are entirely valid, and your incorrect assumptions about me say more about you than they do me. I have a current temple recommend, serve on my stake high council, attend all my meetings (including our annual stake high priest meeting last Thursday, a stake youth council leadership meeting this forthcoming Tuesday, stake council next Thursday, and ward conference no. 5 of 8 next Sunday). Just because someone who has been an active member (since the 1960s) expresses concerns in a way that fails to align with your expectations, you assume he is a troll. Nice one. 

Script for When Someone Calls You a Troll:

1.  Feign umbrage and sincerity

2.  Trot out your bona fides in the Church of Jesus Christ

3.  And so on and so forth

You're following the Script to a "T," Oh, Great Pretender!  (To me, your screen name says it all about what you're all about here!)  Tell me, do you frequent any other boards?  Do the participants on any of those other boards happen to harbor a good deal of antipathy toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Do you, perhaps, divide your time between here and there, feigning sincerity over here whilst* crowing about how you have us completely fooled over there?

*Just thought I'd slip that in for one of our "Brethren" across the pond!

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[3DOP]

5 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

30 years ago, Elder Oaks reminded us of the importance of "prayer language" when addressing deity (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer). From my earliest years as an eager-to-please Primary child, I proved to be adept at conjugating verbs into 17th-century English. That's funny, right? I felt confident that my prayers were all the more sincere as a result, and I was convinced they were well-received by deity on account of my skills.

My children, however, flat-out refused to comply. I was infuriated because I was fully invested in what Elder Oaks taught, which was reiterated by an article in ldsliving.com as recently as 2016 (https://www.ldsliving.com/why-do-we-pray-using-thee-and-thou/s/75897).

So here's the thing.

I have reached a comfortable conclusion that biological evolution is part of the great Plan (billions of years of it and still counting), and please note that this belief is not heretical (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/organic-evolution?lang=eng). 

Evolution leads me to conclude that human language has zero connection to God but is merely a set of highly developed animal grunts. As such, an archaic form of it from several hundred years ago is neither more nor less respectful; it is simply a bunch of noises that convey meaning to others of our species in Earth's atmosphere. Retaining selected grunts from several hundred years ago (though limited to second-person singular and associated verbs but no nouns or other vocabulary from the era) to use with deity is simply a barrier to the uninitiated and something for everyday folks to laughably butcher in an attempt to aspire to greater sincerity, respect, or whatever.

As a consequence, I now suspect that "prayer language" is little more than the Emperor's New Clothes. Considered in the cold light of day, it may constitute a ritual like counting rosary beads or crossing oneself, yet I, for one, have been conditioned for decades to judge others by their fluency.

I don't have examples to offer, but I believe our scriptures are full of botched attempts to portray authenticity through bungled, outdated language, and I'm left thinking, "Isn't it time to move on and accept that God has no more interest in 17th-century English than he does 21st-century street slang?"

In automatic mode, I still pray "correctly" in meetings using "thee, thou, and thine" with their associated verb conjugations, but in personal prayer, I ditch the embroidery.

What thinkest thou?

1) God can use rituals to help our imaginations to more readily envision the realities of his invisible presence. I suppose your misgivings would be about bad rituals, such as those practised by Catholics. Leaving that aside, I would hesitate to equate what you have thought to be "prayer language" with rituals of any sort.

2) It is more for the worshipper than for God, that we are encouraged to express ourselves in language that is special, perceived as elevated, and even perhaps, mysterious, especially in public worship. No one should think that God is displeased with any sincere prayers addressed to Him. I find it helpful to me to have access to "prayer language". It would be a mistake though, to teach anyone, especially a child that God is somehow more pleased with prayers spoken in archaic language.

As a Catholic with an appreciation for the use of a dead language in many of our community religious rituals, I would not like anyone to think that was because I believe that God is against modern languages. Sincere prayer, with a deep appreciation for God's presence, does not come easy. Use of even a slightly different tongue than we use all of the rest of the time seems appropriate and helpful to many, whenever they wish to raise their thoughts above the everyday world. I suggest that it is because of a recognition of the frailty of our human condition that "prayer language" has developed in your religion as well as mine.

3DOP

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by 3DOP

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

I have re-read it today and find it unhelpful.

I get the impression that you may be ascribing a limited extract from an archaic form of language with spirituality because it comes from a faraway land. I happen to live in that land, so I'm fully aware that no special association is involved. English is not the language of God; smatterings of archaic English are even less so.

You're right though, I wanted to hear it from others. I guess I'm not surprised to learn that people don't question it and genuinely believe it contributes to spirituality. I am convinced it does no such thing.

I think you’ve grossly missed my point. The practice of using sacred language for prayer applies to any language.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Sorry for covering old ground so soon. I searched for "prayer language" but found no results.

No problem. The board’s search function can be kind of a pain anyway. 

[Saint Bonaventure]

30 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

1) God can use rituals to help our imaginations to more readily envision the realities of his invisible presence. I suppose your misgivings would be about bad rituals, such as those practised by Catholics. Leaving that aside, I would hesitate to equate what you have thought to be "prayer language" with rituals of any sort.

2) It is more for the worshipper than for God, that we are encouraged to express ourselves in language that is special, perceived as elevated, and even perhaps, mysterious, especially in public worship. No one should think that God is displeased with any sincere prayers addressed to Him. I find it helpful to me to have access to "prayer language". It would be a mistake though, to teach anyone, especially a child that God is somehow more pleased with prayers spoken in archaic language.

As a Catholic with an appreciation for the use of a dead language in many of our community religious rituals, I would not like anyone to think that was because I believe that God is against modern languages. Sincere prayer, with a deep appreciation for God's presence, does not come easy. Use of even a slightly different tongue than we use all of the rest of the time seems appropriate and helpful to many, whenever they wish to raise their thoughts above the everyday world. I suggest that it is because of a recognition of the frailty of our human condition that "prayer language" has developed in your religion as well as mine.

3DOP

 

 

What you've written reminds me of Paul in Romans 8:26

Quote

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.

 

[InCognitus]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No problem. The board’s search function can be kind of a pain anyway. 

That's an understatement.  

I find it far more reliable (but also not completely accurate) to use Google's advanced search instead.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Script for When Someone Calls You a Troll:

1.  Feign umbrage and sincerity

2.  Trot out your bona fides in the Church of Jesus Christ

3.  And so on and so forth

You're following the Script to a "T," Oh, Great Pretender!  (To me, your screen name says it all about what you're all about here!)  Tell me, do you frequent any other boards?  Do the participants on any of those other boards happen to harbor a good deal of antipathy toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Do you, perhaps, divide your time between here and there, feigning sincerity over here whilst* crowing about how you have us completely fooled over there?

*Just thought I'd slip that in for one of our "Brethren" across the pond!

I mean, you might have evidence I don’t have.  but I take Pretender as a dude who has been active his whole life and is for the first time asking important questions that have him off kilter because he’s black and white.  Maybe he will find his place if we create safety for him to ask the questions? And if not him, others who are lurking and watching.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Script for When Someone Calls You a Troll:

1.  Feign umbrage and sincerity

2.  Trot out your bona fides in the Church of Jesus Christ

3.  And so on and so forth

You're following the Script to a "T," Oh, Great Pretender!  (To me, your screen name says it all about what you're all about here!)  Tell me, do you frequent any other boards?  Do the participants on any of those other boards happen to harbor a good deal of antipathy toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Do you, perhaps, divide your time between here and there, feigning sincerity over here whilst* crowing about how you have us completely fooled over there?

*Just thought I'd slip that in for one of our "Brethren" across the pond!

I'm sort of surprised Kenngo! Are you going to give him just a little time before accusing him? You were and are much nicer to me and my comments might have been trollish sounding about the church more than a few times. 

[The Great Pretender]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I mean, you might have evidence I don’t have.  but I take Pretender as a dude who has been active his whole life and is for the first time asking important questions that have him off kilter because he’s black and white.  Maybe he will find his place if we create safety for him to ask the questions? And if not him, others who are lurking and watching.  

You are correct, and @Kenngo1969 is drawing incorrect conclusions because he's struggling to believe that anyone who is a genuine member should question things we are taught to accept on good faith. I turn 60 this year, and I am a product of the Church and its teachings. Due to being raised in a devout home and thus becoming an example of our culture (Seminary graduate, returned missionary, married father sealed in the temple, and covenant keeping), I have served in leadership callings almost my entire adult life so far without questioning what I've been doing. In the UK, church membership is sparse and dwindling, so anyone who has been around long enough to know the story of Johnny Lingo and can spell Mahonri Moriancumer is destined to remain in leadership forever.

In the past few days, I have learned a hard lesson; that I have spent my entire life as a black-and-white gospel thinker. That's likely to be because we don't generally have contrary voices over here in the UK. Perhaps we are less critical thinkers or generally less rude. I may just be going through what you Americans do in your teens, except I'm not rebelling; I'm simply voicing my concerns about odd stuff I've never before questioned.

@Kenngo1969 I'm simply feeding your scepticism by insisting I'm not a member of any other faith-based boards, except that I subscribed to the North Star LDS online community a few years ago to pose some questions about gender and identity. I was unable to find what I was looking for, so I unsubscribed. None of this matters, of course. You aren't the police; nor, it seems, do you have the gift of discernment.

[rpn]

I WANT to be fully respectful and do what Jesus actually taught us to do.    I use pray language regularly.   I never correct anyone else including family members, having fully taught it and therefore done my part.

[The Great Pretender]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Script for When Someone Calls You a Troll:

1.  Feign umbrage and sincerity

2.  Trot out your bona fides in the Church of Jesus Christ

3.  And so on and so forth

You're following the Script to a "T," Oh, Great Pretender!  (To me, your screen name says it all about what you're all about here!)  Tell me, do you frequent any other boards?  Do the participants on any of those other boards happen to harbor a good deal of antipathy toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Do you, perhaps, divide your time between here and there, feigning sincerity over here whilst* crowing about how you have us completely fooled over there?

*Just thought I'd slip that in for one of our "Brethren" across the pond!

@Kenngo1969 For your benefit, I have just taken a screenshot after logging in to my lds.org account.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qBPqWU1V4jlkSY1QC2ceIWvT5H3RBOHQ/view?usp=drivesdk

I could have used Photoshop, but I'd have to be really resourceful to fake all the article links. 🙄

[Rain]

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Except I dare not ditch it in meetings because people will judge me. If you are a member of any longevity, you will know this to be the case.

 

 

I decided that I wasn't going to let other people's judgment stop me from doing what I felt right about. Mustard has good thoughts on not doing things that make people feel uncomfortable and I think she is right about that because when they are comfortable they can feel our love better and we they trust us more and allow us to help them.

But I also think that what other people think shouldn't stop us from doing what feels right. Personally, I stopped using thee and though even in group prayers at church because felt like a barrier between me and God. It felt like I was putting on a show and that slowed me from feeling what the Lord would have me say.  

So when I teach Sunday School I still wear a skirt so others are comfortable, but forget thee and thou when it stops me from hearing the words He wants me to say.

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

In my family prayers, I now avoid it without things becoming awkward. Instead of saying, "We thank thee," I now say, "We are grateful." Stuff like that. It's mentally exhausting, though, to be honest.

 

[Okrahomer]

Self-righteous and hurtful

Edited January 30, 2023 by Okrahomer

[Rain]

33 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

For me using “prayer language” is humbling.  There is always a bit of trepidation about praying in Public  anyway.  When I have been asked to pray in meetings, I find myself turning to the Lord before I actually utter a word.  I am asking Him to help me say the the right things.  It becomes a prayer within a prayer.

I feel by committing myself to use “prayer language” I make myself vulnerable.  Somehow, this simple act of humility (tiny as it is) seems to help me hear the Still Small Voice guiding my choice of words.

I understand that and think it is good that you do. 

I hope you are ok with the idea that for some people, like me, it instead becomes a barrier to hearing the Still Small Voice, and are ok if we don't use the language because of the barrier.

[Okrahomer]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

I understand that and think it is good that you do. 

I hope you are ok with the idea that for some people, like me, it instead becomes a barrier to hearing the Still Small Voice, and are ok if we don't use the language because of the barrier.

Yes!  Of course!  And I apologize for making it sound like it wasn’t OK if you prayer differently than I do.  I love prayer…period.  No matter how it sounds.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Okrahomer

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Yes!  Of course!  And I apologize for making it sound like it wasn’t OK if you prayer differently than I do.  I love prayer…period.  No matter how it sounds.

You didn't sound like that.  It was just the timing right after my post that made me unsure.  Thank you. 🙂

[jpv]

8 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

30 years ago, Elder Oaks reminded us of the importance of "prayer language" when addressing deity (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer). From my earliest years as an eager-to-please Primary child, I proved to be adept at conjugating verbs into 17th-century English. That's funny, right? I felt confident that my prayers were all the more sincere as a result, and I was convinced they were well-received by deity on account of my skills.

My children, however, flat-out refused to comply. I was infuriated because I was fully invested in what Elder Oaks taught, which was reiterated by an article in ldsliving.com as recently as 2016 (https://www.ldsliving.com/why-do-we-pray-using-thee-and-thou/s/75897).

So here's the thing.

I have reached a comfortable conclusion that biological evolution is part of the great Plan (billions of years of it and still counting), and please note that this belief is not heretical (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2016/10/to-the-point/what-does-the-church-believe-about-evolution?lang=eng, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/organic-evolution?lang=eng). 

Evolution leads me to conclude that human language has zero connection to God but is merely a set of highly developed animal grunts. As such, an archaic form of it from several hundred years ago is neither more nor less respectful; it is simply a bunch of noises that convey meaning to others of our species in Earth's atmosphere. Retaining selected grunts from several hundred years ago (though limited to second-person singular and associated verbs but no nouns or other vocabulary from the era) to use with deity is simply a barrier to the uninitiated and something for everyday folks to laughably butcher in an attempt to aspire to greater sincerity, respect, or whatever.

As a consequence, I now suspect that "prayer language" is little more than the Emperor's New Clothes. Considered in the cold light of day, it may constitute a ritual like counting rosary beads or crossing oneself, yet I, for one, have been conditioned for decades to judge others by their fluency.

I don't have examples to offer, but I believe our scriptures are full of botched attempts to portray authenticity through bungled, outdated language, and I'm left thinking, "Isn't it time to move on and accept that God has no more interest in 17th-century English than he does 21st-century street slang?"

In automatic mode, I still pray "correctly" in meetings using "thee, thou, and thine" with their associated verb conjugations, but in personal prayer, I ditch the embroidery.

What thinkest thou?

Read what Elder Ballard said this month:

I said a prayer in my heart. Hoping to feel some guidance from the Lord, I asked, “Am I doing what You want?”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2023/01/04-the-light-of-life?id=p3&lang=eng#p3

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, The Great Pretender said:

@Kenngo1969 For your benefit, I have just taken a screenshot after logging in to my lds.org account.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qBPqWU1V4jlkSY1QC2ceIWvT5H3RBOHQ/view?usp=drivesdk

I could have used Photoshop, but I'd have to be really resourceful to fake all the article links. 🙄

Lots of disaffected Latter-day Saints have accounts at ChurchofJesusChrist.org, Dude.  It proves nothing.  Thanks.

[Kenngo1969]

@The Great Pretender

Yeah, I struggle to believe that any devout Latter-day Saint would get angry [upset, worried, use whatever adjective you think fits] at his children for using "incorrect prayer language."  But, whatever.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sort of surprised Kenngo! Are you going to give him just a little time before accusing him? You were and are much nicer to me and my comments might have been trollish sounding about the church more than a few times. 

Fair enough.  I do wonder if one of the alter egos he might have is crowing elsewhere, where disaffected Latter-day Saints tend to hang out, about how easy it has been to put one over on the faithful.  But you're right.  I ain't the Troll Police.

Have fun, ya'all.

[Vanguard]

4 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Sure, using antiquated speech to make a prayer sound more genuine, respectful, or whatever seems increasingly like nonsense to me.

From reading your other posts, I don't think you mean when we pray in public, correct? I too wrestle in my personal prayers how to address Him (hmmmm, why do I capitalize 'H'?) and have found it better to drop the formal language for my own style. I do not believe this should be the case in public. What say you?

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Some languages use words that distinguish between formal and intimate ways to address others. 

And actually prayer language was originally intimate language; we spoke to God as we would address our own earthly Dad.

 

"Before they all merged into the catch-all form you, English second person pronouns distinguished between nominative and objective, as well as between singular and plural (or formal):

thou - singular informal, subject (Thou art here. = You are here.)
thee - singular informal, object (He gave it to thee.)
ye - plural or formal, subject
you - plural or formal, object

Interestingly, when the first English translations of the Bible were being made, the informal thee and thou were used specifically in reference to God to indicate an approachable, familiar God, but as the language changed this paradoxically brought thee and thou to sound more formal to the modern English speaker."

I lost the reference look it up anywhere.

"Thee thou familiar" works

Edited January 30, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Reality:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou