Does God intervene?

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

... I call my idiosyncratic theodicy the "prison of evil" theodicy.  ...

We're all "prisoners" in this Fallen World!  We are not essentially mortal beings sent here to have occasional spiritual experiences.  We are essentially spiritual beings who have been sent here to have a mortal experience!  

Edited January 28 by Kenngo1969

[OGHoosier]

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

Thank you.  I have thoughts and feelings about how it might work though they are just the tiniest idea that it does.  What you are saying may well be a part of it. So it's not so much that bad things happen to people and how does that work with a God who loves us and answers prayers that I was talking about struggling with even though that sort of is a part of it.  I have no idea how to express this well, but I hope that makes sense.

When I replied here what I  have been struggling with lately is the idea that God doesn't intervene because of "agency".  While I get the idea I feel with the extremes that people put other people through make it a cruel thing to have God sit back and not stop it just so someone can have their agency.  I mean after you have tortured and killed 10 people does God really need to step back and say, "well, he just hasn't used his agency enough yet so I shouldn't stop it"?

A fair question. That said, I'm trying to imagine a world in which nobody, ever, from Malaysia to Manitoba, could kill 11 people. Once the ******* commits to killing the 11th, or right after he kills the 10th, he invariably drops dead, or gets caught, or gets paralyzed, or something like that. It would be a world with a lot less pain and death, but don't you think people would notice that eventually? Don't you think societies (and individuals) would react to that knowledge somehow?

I don't think we're in a position to know how, or how it would affect God's plans in the grand scheme, but I think that it would and that God has to take that into account.

[Kenngo1969]

And perhaps the reason why some prayers are answered in the way they are (and just the way we've pleaded for them to be) is simply because God wishes to let us know, "Yes.  I'm real.  I'm here.  And I care what happens to you."  Again, I am aware, acutely, of how that notion falls woefully short.  I understand the frustration that "God helps someone find lost keys, but can't prevent murder, rape, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseam."  To borrow and slightly alter something the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. said, the arc of eternity is long, and it bends, ultimately, toward justice, and fairness, and being made whole ... eventually.  (Ay, there's the rub! )

And certainly, I might have to plead guilty if someone were to snort derisively and dismissively, "Oh, come on!  Nothing you've experienced has been all that terrible!"   Yep.  True.  But while I haven't been the victim of unspeakable depravity, I have been on both sides (if only barely) of the, "God-helps-people-find-lost-keys-but-can't*-intervene-to-ensure-success-of-a-series-of-major-surgical-operations" fence.  I don't know why I had two unsuccessful major operations, the aftermath of which set me back physically permanently in some ways.  (These were followed by three more, all of which, despite some pretty long odds, were successful: That's why I say I've been on both sides of the fence.)  I don't know why it seems that "No, we can't be bothered to help you find a job in the legal profession, but we'll send you disability checks for as long as you're eligible."

I could "curse God and die."  Job 2:9, see vv. 1-10.  But, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath taken away"—or hath withheld.  "Blessed be the name of the Lord."  Job 1:21.  And, like Nephi, "I know that God loveth His children.  Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things."  1 Nephi 11:15.  I feel I know something of what Paul meant when he wrote to the Corinthians, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed[.]"  2 Corinthians 4:8-9.

______________

*Or, for whatever reason that only someday can I hope to understand, would not or did not.

Edited January 28 by Kenngo1969

[blackstrap]

Do we want God to be a " helicopter parent " ? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Does He answer prayers, including in words and in His own voice? Yes.

Does He send peace in the midst of terrible trials? Yes.

Does He send angels with messages? Yes.

Does he reveal information to us in visions, both waking and in dreams? Yes.

Does He heal minds and bodies? Yes.

Does He prompt us when others need our help? Yes.

Does He warn us of impending danger/threats? Yes.

I would consider all of those intervention, and I have experienced all of the above more than once, in some cases many times.

Last weekend, whilst I was praying, a former investigator came into my mind. I used to pray for him all the time, but he dropped off my mental list at some point. (He hasn't been to church in about 8 years.) I felt impressed that I should start praying for him again, so I did, and I included him in my Sunday fast.

Tuesday morning I woke up to a notification on my phone. This young man had 'unsent' me a message on Facebook at 5:30am. As a rule, I would assume that he had sent a message to the wrong recipient, realised it, and then deleted it. After all, the last time I'd heard from him was in July 2021, and my last three messages to him (the last one in September last year) had gone unread.

But because of the impression that had come over the weekend, I revised my initial response and send him a message. He replied. We chatted back and forth. It turns out that he did send me a message at 5:30 that morning and then worried about it and so withdrew it. I get that; we haven't seen each other in about 8 years. But when I sent him a message, he knew it was OK to 'bother' me. He told me he felt lost and asked if we could catch up.

He came round for dinner last night. It was great to see him! He looks really good. But he's lost spiritually. He's stopped praying (except when he's in trouble), reading scripture, attending church, etc. He implied that he may be running with the wrong crowd. Now he needs divine guidance, and he's forgot how to go about that. We discussed the importance of regular prayer, time spent in the scriptures, being part of a faith community, etc. I encouraged him to start praying and then follow whatever promptings he receives around everything else. (Though he did say that he'd manage to relocate his Book of Mormon before coming round.)

I know myself. I'm certain I would not have responded to this young man without divine 'intervention' a few days prior. Instead, I was prepared to respond in the way that he needed. It was precisely what he needed, he said.

God is good. He's also wise. I refuse to let the fact that I don't fully understand His wisdom interfere with my rejoicing in His goodness.

[Buckeye]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

I’ve thought about this a lot too. The best answer I’ve come to is that the purpose of the involvement is key - that purpose is to build trust in the Savior, not to grant a temporary desire no matter how “good”. If the atonement and resurrection are not real, then raising Lazarus, healing lepers, feeding thousands, etc is not really a miracle in the eternal scheme. They just postpone death, hunger, pain a small bit. But the end result is no different. 
 

 

Edited January 28 by Buckeye

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Thank you.  I have thoughts and feelings about how it might work though they are just the tiniest idea that it does.  What you are saying may well be a part of it. So it's not so much that bad things happen to people and how does that work with a God who loves us and answers prayers that I was talking about struggling with even though that sort of is a part of it.  I have no idea how to express this well, but I hope that makes sense.

When I replied here what I  have been struggling with lately is the idea that God doesn't intervene because of "agency".  While I get the idea I feel with the extremes that people put other people through make it a cruel thing to have God sit back and not stop it just so someone can have their agency.  I mean after you have tortured and killed 10 people does God really need to step back and say, "well, he just hasn't used his agency enough yet so I shouldn't stop it"?

Especially since such is a major curtailing of the agency of those ten that were killed.

[The Nehor]

Yes, but usually He does not. I haven’t found any discernible pattern. I have learned not to rely on divine help because I never know if it is coming or not.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but usually He does not. I haven’t found any discernible pattern. I have learned not to rely on divine help because I never know if it is coming or not.

But I happily take it when it comes…

[Buckeye]

Another thought. If we all got the wish our our heart every time, we wound each assuredly damn ourselves. That lesson has been taught repeatedly - Aladdin’s lamp, the Monkeys paw, the Tale of the three brothers (Harry Potter). No matter how good and pure our desires may be, they are far less than what God is able to do. I’ve fought that truth my whole life but in quiet moments when I’m honest I have to admit it’s true. I need a Savior infinitely wiser than I am. 

[mrmarklin]

Of course He intervenes. There is a reason He allowed John the beloved and the three Nephites to be in the world until the millennium. 
I believe He intervenes in indirect ways as well, but I can only be sure in the next life. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

A fair question. That said, I'm trying to imagine a world in which nobody, ever, from Malaysia to Manitoba, could kill 11 people. Once the ******* commits to killing the 11th, or right after he kills the 10th, he invariably drops dead, or gets caught, or gets paralyzed, or something like that. It would be a world with a lot less pain and death, but don't you think people would notice that eventually? Don't you think societies (and individuals) would react to that knowledge somehow?

Is that a bad thing?  

If my children notice that I send my son Bob to his room after the third time he punches his brother is that a bad thing? Does that really stop his agency or does it make him more aware of the consequences? 

We teach there are consequences to our actions, but then teach God hides the consequences till the next life?

But this really misses my point.  I cannot fathom watching one of my children violently hurting another one of my children and then saying he has to have his agency.  I can't imagine anyone doing this except for abusive parents.  Why are we ok with saying it's ok for God to do it? 

I'm ok with people not understanding why God doesn't intervene.  I'm even ok with people feeling there must be a good reason not to.  But agency is one reason that doesn't set well with me at all and I think the only reason members are ok with the idea because the Book of Mormon gives us a horrifying example of it.

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I don't think we're in a position to know how, or how it would affect God's plans in the grand scheme, but I think that it would and that God has to take that into account.

 

Edited January 28 by Rain

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

Do we want God to be a " helicopter parent " ? 

If God wants us to look to him in every thought it sure sounds like God wants us to think of Him as an ever-present helicopter parent.

[Pyreaux]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

We don’t have control over whose prayers are answered or who is helped, so why feel guilty about that?

We should feel guilty if we act as if we are more worthy for intervention in front of those suffering (which is everyone in some way) or assume someone is unworthy or does not have enough faith if their prayers go unanswered as far as they and/or we are aware.  We need to be careful how we share our experiences of intervention to not make those whose prayers did not result in healings or protection to suffer more as well.  That does not mean we can’t share our experiences, it means we should follow the Spirit and our own wisdom hopefully learned from experiences of empathy with others in pain or from our own pain to choose appropriate times and ways.

I know, it seems on the internet these days, when I speak of my blessings, say I ask him that my breakfast is nutritious, and it was. I'll get a reply like, why didn't your God stop a recent school shooting or save a faithful so-and-so from an illness. Gee. I can't say, all I know is since praying over my breakfast has stopped me from getting poisoned so far, so I'll keep thanking God anyways, and consider it wisdom.

Edited January 28 by Pyreaux

[OGHoosier]

49 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is that a bad thing?  

If my children notice that I send my son Bob to his room after the third time he punches his brother is that a bad thing? Does that really stop his agency or does it make him more aware of the consequences? 

We teach there are consequences to our actions, but then teach God hides the consequences till the next life?

There are consequences to our actions. Must a lightning bolt from heaven be one of them? 

Is it a bad thing? I don't think we can say one way or the other. I can easily imagine a situation where a "hedge around the law" develops as it did with exilic and Second-Temple Judaism. A peaceful world, made so by the evident coercion of heavenly artillery. 

But perhaps I object to that because I don't think this earth's main purpose is to teach us to act rightly. The Gospel's purpose, and the Spirit's purpose, is to teach us to act rightly. The earth's purpose is to show what happens when we don't, and let us refine ourselves by pushing against that tide. Christ comes in as a disruption to the fallen natural order. The point was never to create a perfect world. The point was to convert it.

49 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

But this really misses my point.  I cannot fathom watching one of my children violently hurting another one of my children and then saying he has to have his agency.  I can't imagine anyone doing this except for abusive parents.  Why are we ok with saying it's ok for God to do it? 

To be honest, I think God's parenthood of us is not 1-to-1 analogous to human parenting. We mortals have the duty to balance protection and development. So does God. I don't think the balance of those responsibilities looks the same for Him as it does for us. And I don't think we can reliably extend ourselves to God's position and pass judgment that way. 

But I am 500% certain that bloodless lines of argument like this will not be convincing, so I'm going to bow out now. It makes sense to me, but I am not a parent. Perhaps I will feel differently when I am. And yet I don't think that those feelings of mine will have any bearing on what God should or should not do.  Even if He is an exalted Man, His ways are still different from our ways. He's not the impassible, atemporal deity of classical Christianity, but He isn't us either. 

Edited January 28 by OGHoosier

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I know, it seems on the internet these days, when I speak of my blessings, say I ask him that my breakfast is nutritious, and it was. I'll get a reply like, why didn't your God stop a recent school shooting or save a faithful so-and-so from an illness. Gee. I can't say, all I know was since praying over my breakfast seems to stop me from being poisoned so far, so I'll keep thanking God anyways, and consider it wisdom.

Will you “curse God and die” if some day you find out that the breakfast you prayed over was filled with poison?

Edit: Also….why are you sharing your breakfast prayers on the internet?

Edited January 28 by The Nehor

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

Aladdin’s lamp, the Monkeys paw, the Tale of the three brothers (Harry Potter).

All fiction…do you have evidence that this would happen in real life?  Or something close to it?  Not a challenge, curiosity…

Edited January 28 by Calm

[Buckeye]

Just now, Calm said:

All fiction…do you have evidence that this would happen in real life?  Or something close to it?  Not a challenge, curiosity…

The fiction resonates because it matches reality. I don’t know any real situations where God has given someone all their desires. The closest real-life would be people born to privilege with no restraints. While there are exceptions, a very large percentage of such people seem to self destruct. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

God's parenthood of us is not 1-to-1 analogous to human parenting.

Having billions of children to look after at once rather than 1-5 in most cases, maybe a few over ten these days has to make a difference too.  I know I felt I got shafted at times because I happened to not make as much noise about my issues as my older and younger sisters.  I got a lot of “you are so good on your own” or “we don’t know what to do with you now your siblings are back home, so off to college early with you” that made me feel that way even though I got plenty of basic support going on.  I can see major abandonment issues for many given the billions of others you can compare your situation with and the attention you think you are getting from God vs them.  How would he manage to get the majority of us feeling we got a fair share of his attention?
 

Plus parenting is pretty ineffective once the kids can walk out and support themselves.  God would have to set life up in a way that we remain little children forever and never get to puberty, lol, to care and protect us like a human parent parenting does for our entire life.  Kind of defeats the purpose of mortality.

Edited January 28 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Will you “curse God and die” if some day you find out that the breakfast you prayed over was filled with poison?

Edit: Also….why are you sharing your breakfast prayers on the internet?

We are told to pray over our food. Reason being, we are invoking some divine intervention about from whence it came, the means it was obtained, and even its very composition. If I get poisoned, I'll assume either I'm at fault, or someone close to me hates me and has they're agency at my expense. 

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

If I get poisoned, I'll assume either I'm at fault, or someone close to me hates me and has they're agency at my expense. 

I got horribly ill from eating what appeared to be a perfectly decent frozen chicken pot pie, followed directions for thawing and cooking.  Prayed over the meal as well.

So I don’t see how I was at fault nor did anyone hate me since I wasn’t at my own house, but babysitting.  
 

Do you have another option?

[MustardSeed]

Thank you- 
great discussion.  
I still think God rarely intervenes.  I’m far more comfortable with that plan anyway. 👍

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I still think God rarely intervenes.  I’m far more comfortable with that plan anyway.

I strongly suspect He'll honour that preference.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you- 
great discussion.  
I still think God rarely intervenes.  I’m far more comfortable with that plan anyway. 👍

On one hand I am told that ‘God is in the details of our lives’ and on the other that ‘God generally just allows things to happen’.

I suspect our views morph based on how our lives are going. When things are going well it seems like God is intervening. When things are going badly it is just bad luck.

Yet God also claims:

 “And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.”

So God wants credit for everything? Everything? That makes constructing a theodicy much more complex.

[The Nehor]

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly suspect He'll honour that preference.

Is that a threat or a promise?