LDS environmentalists want their institution to address the Great Salt Lake’s collapse

[smac97]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think this is a parallel to the magnitude of barriers to efficacy in helping the poor, which is why the self-reliance programs are so essential. 

At 4 acre-feet per share @ $8K per share, 7,500,000 shares are needed, with a price tag of $60B.

Per this SLC website, "{t}he vast majority of water flowing into the {Great Salt Lake} comes from the Bear, Weber and Jordan Rivers." 

The Jordan River gets the vast majority of its water from Utah Lake.

The Utah Lake watershed "drains 3,846 square miles (9,960 km2) over mostly mountainous terrain."

36% of Utah Lake water comes from the Provo River.

The Provo River is impounded upstream by the Jordanelle and Dear Creek Reservoirs.  

My house backs to the lower Provo River.  With all the rain and snow this year, I expect it and the water table under my house to be pretty high.  It's been a few years since I've had to use my sump pump, but it will likely get a good workout this year.  A good problem to have, I suppose.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Per this SLC website, "{t}he vast majority of water flowing into the {Great Salt Lake} comes from the Bear, Weber and Jordan Rivers." 

The Jordan River gets the vast majority of its water from Utah Lake.

The Utah Lake watershed "drains 3,846 square miles (9,960 km2) over mostly mountainous terrain."

36% of Utah Lake water comes from the Provo River.

The Provo River is impounded upstream by the Jordanelle and Dear Creek Reservoirs.  

My house backs to the lower Provo River.  With all the rain and snow this year, I expect it and the water table under my house to be pretty high.  It's been a few years since I've had to use my sump pump, but it will likely get a good workout this year.  A good problem to have, I suppose.

Thanks,

-Smac

Absolutely. We have a son in Utah, and we were commenting the other day how all the snow and rain you are getting this year is helpful against the severe+ drought you've been having if the pattern keeps up 3 - 5 more years to bring things back to normal / new normal given population growth and new water management measures vis-a-vis thread topic; the good health of GSL certainly contributes to that. Having a well would be a good way to obtain water for home storage while things are flush.

[Okrahomer]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Dear Creek Reservoirs

My Dad calls it “Dear Crick”, but I think you meant Deer Creek, right?

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Ah!  You scooped me!

A few thoughts:

1. Kudos to the Church! Some commentary on this donation here:

And here:

And here:

2. Per this state website, the water will come from the Jordan River.  It was previously used for irrigation.

3. Alas, the Great Salt Lake purportedly has 4.539 cubic miles of water by volume.  20,000 acre-feet works apparently works out to about 0.0059185518 of a cubic mile. Put another way, the lake loses about 2.6 billion gallons of water to evaporation each day, or 949 billion gallons per year.  The Church's donation works out to be about 6.5 billion gallons, which is equivalent to about 2.5 days of water lost to evaporation.  I say this not to diminish the generosity of the Church (the donation is, after all, in perpetuity), but to note that the problems associated with the Great Salt Lake will require a lot more work to address.

Thanks,

-Smac

Ah, dang it! Debby downer aka Smac! 😄

 

[InCognitus]

Woohoo!  Broke through the purple cloud today(aka the prior snow water equivalent in the State of Utah as of this date):

See:

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/WCIS/AWS_PLOTS/basinCharts/POR/WTEQ/assocHUCut3/state_of_utah.html

Utah's snowpack officially breaks mid-March record; rain causes new flooding

[Calm]

I have really enjoyed this winter, but my husband’s back is getting a work out even with a decent snow blower.

Spring is going to be interesting, lol.  Might be wise to check one’s flood insurance if in a vulnerable area.

Good news, hopefully even more recovery before spring hits.

Quote

Snowpack collection and spring runoff account for about 95% of the state's water supply. The Utah Division of Water Resources reports that Utah's reservoir system is currently at 54% capacity, up from 42.5% at the start of the water year on Oct. 1, 2022. The average for mid-March is about 61.5%.

Would like to see record keeping that goes back 100 years instead of 20.  I assume the 20 year is a particularly technical type of measurement because I remember lengthy discussions about snow pack back in the 70s and 80s when my family were skiers.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Calm

[JarMan]

Regarding the church's "donation" to the GSL, there's some bad news and some good news. The bad news is that most, if not all, of this water is already going out to the lake. The church hasn't used these water rights in many years. They know this of course, but can't resist the PR win.

The good news is that it doesn't matter. The lake will recover on its own when this drought ends.

[helix]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

At 4 acre-feet per share @ $8K per share, 7,500,000 shares are needed, with a price tag of $60B.

That number is too high. The GSL has about 2.3 million acre-feet diverted from/away from it.  (See page 6 here: https://pws.byu.edu/GSL report 2023)

Somewhere around 1 million acre-feet is needed to get the GSL back into some semblance of balance. 

4 acre-feet per share is a good estimate, and $8K per share is more on the overall low end, but lets run with that anyway.  That puts it at a $2 billion. Not $60 billion. But if you start buying shares just for the lake, then the market price is going to shoot way up, so it's going to be more than $2 billion

Edited March 16, 2023 by helix

[JarMan]

58 minutes ago, helix said:

That number is too high. The GSL has about 2.3 million acre-feet diverted from/away from it.  (See page 6 here: https://pws.byu.edu/GSL report 2023)

Somewhere around 1 million acre-feet is needed to get the GSL back into some semblance of balance. 

4 acre-feet per share is a good estimate, and $8K per share is more on the overall low end, but lets run with that anyway.  That puts it at a $2 billion. Not $60 billion. But if you start buying shares just for the lake, then the market price is going to shoot way up, so it's going to be more than $2 billion

There's definitely not 2.3 maf being diverted away from the GSL. The source you are citing is sadly misinformed. The authors are not hydrologists, but are mostly special interests and social scientists who really have no clue. A better source is this: https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/wats_facpub/875/ which indicates 1.451 maf (see footnote 7, par. 3). But even this is high because the authors don't account for several other factors. It is likely closer to about 1.3 maf or less. But even this number includes depletions that occur within the boundary of the lake bed such as managed wetlands and mineral extractions. Without those, the number is less than a million ac-ft. This is roughly 30 percent of the average yield of the basin which means we have a 70 percent lake instead of a 100 percent lake.

The truth is there is no way to get the lake into balance because it was never in balance in the first place. It fluctuates widely over time with or without humans. It's been much lower than it is now and it's been much higher than it was in the 80s. It will continue to do this. 

As far as the cost estimates go, water definitely isn't going for $2,000 per acre-foot. It's more like $10,000 an acre foot. But that's an acre-foot of diversion. You need to essentially double that to get depletion, which is what is appropriate here. So we're looking at about $20,000 per acre-foot. But as you pointed out, that is just the marginal cost of water. The thing to consider here is that essentially all economic activity in the basin requires some amount of water. And the GDP of Utah is about 225 billion dollars. Of course not all of Utah is in the basin, but it does also include parts of Idaho and Wyoming. The point is that the water in the basin is generating somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 billion dollars a year.

The best thing people can do is nothing. Or pray for rain, which is the precise equivalent of nothing. The lake will come back up. Then back down. Then back up again and so on.

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:22 PM, smac97 said:

The climate crisis, which has increased average temperatures in northern Utah by 4F since the early 1900s…

The climate crisis started in the early 1900s?

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:04 PM, Calm said:

The pale horse is death…

The Pale Rider is death.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, helix said:

That number is too high. The GSL has about 2.3 million acre-feet diverted from/away from it.  (See page 6 here: https://pws.byu.edu/GSL report 2023)

Somewhere around 1 million acre-feet is needed to get the GSL back into some semblance of balance. 

4 acre-feet per share is a good estimate, and $8K per share is more on the overall low end, but lets run with that anyway.  That puts it at a $2 billion. Not $60 billion. But if you start buying shares just for the lake, then the market price is going to shoot way up, so it's going to be more than $2 billion

Yes, lots of estimates to draw from; the magnitude of the problem I'm pointing out remains the same. 

[CV75]

7 hours ago, JarMan said:

There's definitely not 2.3 maf being diverted away from the GSL. The source you are citing is sadly misinformed. The authors are not hydrologists, but are mostly special interests and social scientists who really have no clue. A better source is this: https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/wats_facpub/875/ which indicates 1.451 maf (see footnote 7, par. 3). But even this is high because the authors don't account for several other factors. It is likely closer to about 1.3 maf or less. But even this number includes depletions that occur within the boundary of the lake bed such as managed wetlands and mineral extractions. Without those, the number is less than a million ac-ft. This is roughly 30 percent of the average yield of the basin which means we have a 70 percent lake instead of a 100 percent lake.

The truth is there is no way to get the lake into balance because it was never in balance in the first place. It fluctuates widely over time with or without humans. It's been much lower than it is now and it's been much higher than it was in the 80s. It will continue to do this. 

As far as the cost estimates go, water definitely isn't going for $2,000 per acre-foot. It's more like $10,000 an acre foot. But that's an acre-foot of diversion. You need to essentially double that to get depletion, which is what is appropriate here. So we're looking at about $20,000 per acre-foot. But as you pointed out, that is just the marginal cost of water. The thing to consider here is that essentially all economic activity in the basin requires some amount of water. And the GDP of Utah is about 225 billion dollars. Of course not all of Utah is in the basin, but it does also include parts of Idaho and Wyoming. The point is that the water in the basin is generating somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 billion dollars a year.

The best thing people can do is nothing. Or pray for rain, which is the precise equivalent of nothing. The lake will come back up. Then back down. Then back up again and so on.

 

 

While the water levels rise and fall on their own, there is much we can do to understand and manage the dynamics (some of which are unique to our time and circumstances) since this is really about human survival (some are more focused on the long, and others on the shorter, term), not the lake's per se. Even the term "drought" is used subjectively, depending on what level of survival people deem to be optimal for themselves and any water-dependent organisms under their stewardship.

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I have really enjoyed this winter, but my husband’s back is getting a work out even with a decent snow blower.

Spring is going to be interesting, lol.  Might be wise to check one’s flood insurance if in a vulnerable area.

Right. We all remember when this happened in 1983.

[smac97]

Hmm:

Quote

The LDS Church’s donation comes following another water saving announcement that 12 municipalities will be selling, at discounted prices, rain barrels to residents to collect water — reducing demand across four Great Salt Lake counties. It is a return of the RainHarvest program.

“We’ve saved millions of gallons of water through this program over the last eight years,” said Zach Frankel, Executive Director of the Utah Rivers Council. “These twelve municipalities are leading us on a path through this mega drought that all Utahns need to follow. We are grateful to them for their leadership.”

Residents of Lehi and Orem join those in a handful of cities across Summit, Weber and Salt Lake counties, along with customers of Mountain Regional Water. Residents can purchase discount rain barrels for $55 each.

To purchase discounted rain barrels, residents must go through a verification process to ensure they live within a participating municipality. Rain barrels are available to all Utahns for $83 outside of the select areas. Purchased rain barrels will be distributed to residents at four locations after the sale closes in late-April.

“In addition to saving water for our depleted lakes and rivers, this program is an exceptional tool for participants in diversifying their water saving strategies at their home,” said Matt Taylor, Orem City senior planner.

Rain barrels are one of many tools Utahns can use to reduce water use. Every time a 50-gallon barrel is filled with rain, 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies. The environmentally-friendly program uses the Ivy Rain barrel.

“According to the US Environmental Protection Agency, 30% of daily water is used outdoors. In the Snyderville Basin, that number is closer to 55%,” Andy Garland, the General Manager of Mountain Regional Water, said in a press release. “Mountain Regional Water is pleased to continue our partnership with the Utah Rivers Council to offer residents the opportunity to affordably conserve water through rainwater collection by purchasing a heavily discounted rain collection barrel.”

I wonder if this rain barrel idea will work.

And I don't understand this bit: "Every time a 50-gallon barrel is filled with rain, 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies."  Can anyone explain that?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Hmm:

I wonder if this rain barrel idea will work.

And I don't understand this bit: "Every time a 50-gallon barrel is filled with rain, 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies."  Can anyone explain that?

Thanks,

-Smac

Maybe they meant if every Utah household that could have one did have one…

[Benjamin McGuire]

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And I don't understand this bit: "Every time a 50-gallon barrel is filled with rain, 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies."  Can anyone explain that?

Someone misread something I assume.

The EPA (quoted in the article) claims that a 55 gallon barrel, used through the peak summer months, can save around 1,300 gallons of water usage (I'm sure there are lots of variables depending on where you live). If I were going to hazard a guess, the 400,000 number refers to the project - at a certain level of saturation of rain barrel usage, every time it rained enough to fill these barrels, you would see a regional savings of 400,000 gallons (assuming enough people purchase and install them).

 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Hmm:

I wonder if this rain barrel idea will work.

And I don't understand this bit: "Every time a 50-gallon barrel is filled with rain, 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies."  Can anyone explain that?

Thanks,

-Smac

Found what he was referring to:

Quote

Over the last 8 years of the Utah Rivers Council's RainHarvest program, there have been nearly 8,000 barrels purchased by Utahns. According to estimates by the council, every time it rains enough to fill a 50-gallon barrel, roughly 400,000 gallons of water can be saved from municipal water supplies.

https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/discount-rain-barrels-to-save-water-for-utahns-in-12-municipalities/amp/

So it’s referring to how much water is currently being saved due to the rain barrels already purchased. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

There are over a million houses in Utah.  While many probably can’t use a rain barrel, many other can use multiple ones, so let’s assume it evens out to 1 on average or 1 million 50 gallon barrels. 
 

50 million gallons, assuming all use their water instead of collecting, but ignoring.

Quote

The size of rain barrel you choose depends on how much water you want to store and the size of your roof. Common sizes for residential use are 50 gallons to 90 gallons.

Rain barrels can fill up very quickly. In order to determine the size and/or number of rain barrels that are needed, you need to know the size of your roof or the portion of roof that will drain to the rain barrel….
If you have several downspouts estimate the area covered by each downspout. For example: a typical house has a roof area of 1,200 square feet and four downspouts that will each drain about 300 square feet of roof. This means that 0.3 inches of rainfall will fill a 55-gallon rain barrel placed under each downspout.

https://www.prcity.com/DocumentCenter/View/15276/Rain-Barrel-Installation-PDF

Apparently they fill up pretty quickly in a storm, so would fill up a number of times a year with our thunderstorms, I am guessing.  SLC gets on average 18 inches of rain a year, so it could fill up potentially 50 times a year…but that does not include times it keeps raining when already filled up.  So let’s say it fills up 25 times a year, that would be 1,250,000,000 gallons a year saved if all houses that could had one or more rain barrels.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Right. We all remember when this happened in 1983.

Yes, I worked at Zions Bank right down the road and navigated to work by it after parking my car. I've wondered if it could happen again.

[smac97]

More is coming: LDS Church says it plans more Great Salt Lake, water conservation measures

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY — Following a massive donation of water shares to help save the Great Salt Lake, a high-ranking official with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said they were exploring ways to do more.

"We have lots of water resources. We’ve been here a long time, since 1847. So we're looking at what can reasonably be used," said Bishop W. Christopher Waddell, First Counselor of the Church's Presiding Bishopric.

The Church's gift of 5,700 shares of water to the Great Salt Lake earned applause from a crowd at a symposium on the future of the lake at the University of Utah. The water shares, which are about 20,000 acre feet (enough to fill a reservoir) are permanent and in perpetuity. Bishop Waddell told FOX 13 News in an interview on Friday that he hoped it would inspire others to give water to the lake.

"We’ve been complimented for the donation. However, we realize if that’s all that takes place, it’s not going to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. It’s really a first step and an invitation and an example to others to look at what is possible," he said.

The Church is looking at properties and water shares it owns in the counties that surround the Great Salt Lake for future donations.

"The idea is not to donate something to donate. The idea is to donate what is appropriate to make a difference," he told FOX 13 News. "And so we’re in the process of doing that research. It’s hard to say how much that will be, how little that will be. We hope it will be significant."

Very cool.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

More is coming: LDS Church says it plans more Great Salt Lake, water conservation measures

Very cool.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well if the situation is as dire as it seems, there's no question that the church should do something.

[The Nehor]

On 3/16/2023 at 11:30 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Someone misread something I assume.

The EPA (quoted in the article) claims that a 55 gallon barrel, used through the peak summer months, can save around 1,300 gallons of water usage (I'm sure there are lots of variables depending on where you live). If I were going to hazard a guess, the 400,000 number refers to the project - at a certain level of saturation of rain barrel usage, every time it rained enough to fill these barrels, you would see a regional savings of 400,000 gallons (assuming enough people purchase and install them).

 

But then the land is getting less water and all the wells will dry out faster.

I think our best bet is to send up a rocket and poke a hole in the firmament and then let that water from outer space drain in for a while to get some water and then plug the hole with duct tape or something when you are done.

[bsjkki]

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2023/3/17/23644786/great-salt-lake-water-level-gov-spencer-cox

Edited March 18, 2023 by bsjkki

[Tacenda]

Reading over these posts, the thought occurred that maybe we all need to sacrifice our love of red meat (some of us) and not breed cattle and thus not grow alfalfa and hopefully allow the lake to fill up. But not hang the rancher/farmer out to dry but the church help them until the lake is filled. The church could use their rainy day fund. Or else Utah and possibly the surrounding areas are doomed. We can't let it dry up, how would we survive, talk about an apocalypse and I'm no scientist as anyone can see, but doom and gloom seems to be a realty.