What’s in a Name

[Dscott]

Hello everyone, this is my first time to this or any forum. I wanted to reach out to other members of the church to ask a question that I have been praying and pondering about for a while now. It’s a simple question but not an easy one to ask as you will see why. But before I ask I want to make it very clear that I am not here to put anyone or thing down. This is not my intention but I think the question I am going to ask implies that I am. A little back ground on me. I am a member of the church ,born and raised and have held multiple callings. So before I ask my question let me state some facts that we as members believe about our Heavenly Father as it pertains to my question. First he is The God of Truth and second, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) which I take to mean that our Heavenly Father is not worried about offending his Childrens feeling when it comes to correcting us. So this being said here is my question, if our Heavenly Father and His son came to Joseph Smith in his first vision why would  Heavenly Father not first and foremost correct the pronunciation of His sons name. Mary was not commanded to name her son Jesus. The ancient Hebrew text show the name as Yeshua. This was changed to Jesus centuries later. Now as a father if I had a son named Billy and people were calling him Fred I would correct them instead of allowing them to change my son’s name. The Church says that we as members should be in this world but not of this world which is why we have so many things in the church that differs us from so many other religions. But I believe calling the church after the Saviors God given name would be the THE prime example of being in the world and not of it. Along with this is the question of why would The Savior tell Joseph to name his Church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when this is not His name. Unfortunately this is not a question I would ask in Sunday school or Elders Quorum because I feel it would be answered by an invitation to talk to the Bishop. Again I don’t ask this to offend anyone or say anyone is wrong but the facts are the facts and I am just looking for an answer.

Thank you

 

 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Dscott said:

Hello everyone, this is my first time to this or any forum. I wanted to reach out to other members of the church to ask a question that I have been praying and pondering about for a while now. It’s a simple question but not an easy one to ask as you will see why. But before I ask I want to make it very clear that I am not here to put anyone or thing down. This is not my intention but I think the question I am going to ask implies that I am. A little back ground on me. I am a member of the church ,born and raised and have held multiple callings. So before I ask my question let me state some facts that we as members believe about our Heavenly Father as it pertains to my question. First he is The God of Truth and second, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) which I take to mean that our Heavenly Father is not worried about offending his Childrens feeling when it comes to correcting us. So this being said here is my question, if our Heavenly Father and His son came to Joseph Smith in his first vision why would  Heavenly Father not first and foremost correct the pronunciation of His sons name. Mary was not commanded to name her son Jesus. The ancient Hebrew text show the name as Yeshua. This was changed to Jesus centuries later. Now as a father if I had a son named Billy and people were calling him Fred I would correct them instead of allowing them to change my son’s name. The Church says that we as members should be in this world but not of this world which is why we have so many things in the church that differs us from so many other religions. But I believe calling the church after the Saviors God given name would be the THE prime example of being in the world and not of it. Along with this is the question of why would The Savior tell Joseph to name his Church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when this is not His name. Unfortunately this is not a question I would ask in Sunday school or Elders Quorum because I feel it would be answered by an invitation to talk to the Bishop. Again I don’t ask this to offend anyone or say anyone is wrong but the facts are the facts and I am just looking for an answer.

Thank you

 

 

I doubt our mortal names are the same as our eternal ones and Christ’s mortal name was even more of a title than a casual name in many ways, so my guess is it doesn’t really matter to him or to God what name people call him by as long as they understand what his names are meant to convey.  The same with the title of the Church, which is why Pres Nelson has made a big deal lately of not using Mormon because it confuses people and some don’t even realize we are a Christian church. 
 

We all have many different names ourselves that we could be called by, my family is not the least offended when I meet my Internet friends in public and they call me Cal instead of Cris.  It is not the name that is important as much as what is felt about the name and what else is known about me. 

[manol]

Hi Dscott, welcome!

I'm no longer active LDS, so this won't be a mainstream LDS opinion.

First, imo it would be an unnecessary distraction for a world-wide missionary church to have to be constantly explaining why it uses a different name for Jesus than everyone else does, unless THAT was a vital part of their unique message (which is not the case for the LDS Church).   The Church often has a hard enough time as it is arguing that it really is a Christian church, and using a different name for Jesus would add another layer of difficulty.

Second, I don't think Jesus has any ego attachment to how his name is pronounced.  This opinion is largely based on having watched or read numerous near-death experience accounts, and the very powerful and very loving being that many encounter does not seem to be the least bit concerned with people getting his name exactly right. 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by manol

[webbles]

For me, Jesus Christ is the English translation.  From the church's website, we don't use "Jesus Christ" in other languages.  In Spanish, it is Jesucristo.  In Italian, it is Gesu Cristo.  In Croatian, it is Isusa Krista.  I can't find a Hebrew translation from the church's website, but I would assume we would use Yeshua.

When I've lived in other countries, my name changed for the different language.  So, I don't see a problem with using the English version of His name.

[Dscott]

Thank you for the feed back. The consensus seems to be that a name is not as important as the person and I believe that. However I believe that names are very important to our Father in Heaven and to our Savior. Otherwise why would Abraham(Abram), Sarah(Sarai),Israel (Jacob) and Paul (Saul) along with others in the scriptures have their names changed, not by man but by God. That clearly shows me that a name is very important in an eternal aspect. And as “Calm” pointed out even President Neilson believes a name is important which is why he asked the members to repent for taking the name of Jesus out of the name of his church. He said

“ What’s in a name or, in this case, a nickname? When it comes to nicknames of the Church, such as the “LDS Church,” the “Mormon Church,” or the “Church of the Latter-day Saints,” the most important thing in those names is the absence of the Savior’s name. To remove the Lord’s name from the Lord’s Church is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior’s name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us—even His Atonement.

Consider this from His perspective: Premortally, He was Jehovah, God of the Old Testament. Under the direction of His Father, He was the Creator of this and other worlds.⁶ He chose to submit to the will of His Father and do something for all of God’s children that no one else could do! Condescending to come to earth as the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, He was brutally reviled, mocked, spit upon, and scourged. In the Garden of Gethsemane, our Savior took upon Himself every pain, every sin, and all of the anguish and suffering ever experienced by you and me and by everyone who has ever lived or will ever live. Under the weight of that excruciating burden, He bled from every pore.⁷ All of this suffering was intensified as He was cruelly crucified on Calvary’s cross.“

Now to me this sounds like the name is VERY important.
The fact is the Hebrew spelling of the Savior is Yeshua not Jesus and the pronunciation isn’t even close. You can look into when and why the name change as I did but that’s not my point. The one major difference between our faith and the rest of Christianity is that we claim that our founder spoke with God and His Son face to face. If this is true why wouldn’t God as a loving Heavenly Father and the God of Truth not use this opportunity to correct an ongoing error. I knew this was going to be a difficult question to answer but to suggest names are not that important is wrong. Our Father in heaven and our Savior has made that abundantly clear otherwise why would Mary be commanded to name him Yeshua from God the Father instead of just letting Mary and Joseph name him. To comment on some of your answers first “Manol”  I absolutely believe you’re right about the Savior not having an ego but one of his main roles is a teacher. Through his mortal ministry he constantly corrected errors that man made in respect to his gospel. Ego actually has nothing to do with it. Any school teacher would correct their student if they made a grammatical error. And to “webbles” your talking about the different pronunciation of the name Jesus in different languages my question has to do with the actual name change from Yeshua to Jesus. I mean no disrespect to everyone but I’m looking for an answer that makes sense if there is one not answers that are convenient.

thanks again 

[manol]

30 minutes ago, Dscott said:

The consensus seems to be that a name is not as important as the person and I believe that. However I believe that names are very important...

as “Calm” pointed out even President Neilson believes a name is important

Um, do you mean President Nelson?

Sorry, couldn't resist!

(Once you've made 25 posts you can edit after posting.)

Edited January 16, 2023 by manol

[Dscott]

Lol. See, you even felt it necessary to correct my misspelling of the prophets last name but if I would have wrote “President Johansen” you wouldn’t know what or who the heck I was talking about. Thanks for proving my point😊 

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, Dscott said:

First he is The God of Truth and second, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) which I take to mean that our Heavenly Father is not worried about offending his Childrens feeling when it comes to correcting us. So this being said here is my question, if our Heavenly Father and His son came to Joseph Smith in his first vision why would  Heavenly Father not first and foremost correct the pronunciation of His sons name. Mary was not commanded to name her son Jesus. The ancient Hebrew text show the name as Yeshua. This was changed to Jesus centuries later. Now as a father if I had a son named Billy and people were calling him Fred I would correct them instead of allowing them to change my son’s name. The Church says that we as members should be in this world but not of this world which is why we have so many things in the church that differs us from so many other religions. But I believe calling the church after the Saviors God given name would be the THE prime example of being in the world and not of it. Along with this is the question of why would The Savior tell Joseph to name his Church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when this is not His name. Unfortunately this is not a question I would ask in Sunday school or Elders Quorum because I feel it would be answered by an invitation to talk to the Bishop. Again I don’t ask this to offend anyone or say anyone is wrong but the facts are the facts and I am just looking for an answer.

This is Divine Name Theology almost verbatim from the mouth of my Messianic Jewish friends. They use it along with Holy Days as a way to distinguish themselves from other groups. Some of them make it sound like you must say the holy names to be heard or accepted and some back-peddle saying they just would rather hear their own names, "wouldn't you?" That is a man-made argument, it's not scripturally a "fact". God isn't God's name and El is not a name at all, it is a noun, a title used because El Elyon gave His name to His Son. And His Son's name is ineffable, and no one spoke it publicly under punishment of death. Using only made-up titles. The Holy Spirit, the Ruah Kodesh, is not a name. When Yahweh was born as Yesua, that is still not his real name either. The real name of Jesus is a secret shared between only He and the Father. The secret name of Jesus will not be revealed until He and the Father choose to do so, possibly at His Second Coming. Since spoken Biblical Hebrew has been a dead language since 200-400 AD, and only revived by eager Zionists a century ago, how do you figure that you truly know how to pronounce Jesus' name, or pretend to know his desire is to hear his name when no one truly knows how to speak classic Hebrew, especially in Joseph Smith's time?

Edited January 16, 2023 by Pyreaux

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, Dscott said:

Hello everyone, this is my first time to this or any forum. I wanted to reach out to other members of the church to ask a question that I have been praying and pondering about for a while now. It’s a simple question but not an easy one to ask as you will see why. But before I ask I want to make it very clear that I am not here to put anyone or thing down. This is not my intention but I think the question I am going to ask implies that I am. A little back ground on me. I am a member of the church ,born and raised and have held multiple callings. So before I ask my question let me state some facts that we as members believe about our Heavenly Father as it pertains to my question. First he is The God of Truth and second, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) which I take to mean that our Heavenly Father is not worried about offending his Childrens feeling when it comes to correcting us. So this being said here is my question, if our Heavenly Father and His son came to Joseph Smith in his first vision why would  Heavenly Father not first and foremost correct the pronunciation of His sons name. Mary was not commanded to name her son Jesus. The ancient Hebrew text show the name as Yeshua. This was changed to Jesus centuries later. Now as a father if I had a son named Billy and people were calling him Fred I would correct them instead of allowing them to change my son’s name. The Church says that we as members should be in this world but not of this world which is why we have so many things in the church that differs us from so many other religions. But I believe calling the church after the Saviors God given name would be the THE prime example of being in the world and not of it. Along with this is the question of why would The Savior tell Joseph to name his Church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when this is not His name. Unfortunately this is not a question I would ask in Sunday school or Elders Quorum because I feel it would be answered by an invitation to talk to the Bishop. Again I don’t ask this to offend anyone or say anyone is wrong but the facts are the facts and I am just looking for an answer.

Thank you

 

 

Am I the only one here who thinks you’ve got your tongue firmly planted in your cheek? 

[Dscott]

Thanks for your insight Pyreaux, I have not heard of divine name theology before so I had to Google it to see if that had to do with my question. I don’t believe it does. So my question is simple although the answer is not. My question is that in the Bible which is the most common written text for most of if not all Christianity says that an angel told Mary that she should name her son Jesus. But the name Jesus was a translation of Hebrew text by man. When the savior was on the earth did his family, disciples, apostles or even his enemies  call him Jesus or was it something else. You can simply Google this and find that it was not the name Jesus. I’m not talking about a secret or sacred name that’s not to be spoken of by man. I’m talking about the name that he was known and called by in his day by all that knew of him. If your name was Jason would it make sense or be correct that your great great great great grandchildren would call you Mark? And to comment on your last sentence I don’t  profess to know any of our Heavenly Father’s desires or our Saviors desires except what they have made known to us. I sense you were offended by my question and again that is not my intention. Also to “teddyaware” if you are suggesting that I am making fun of anything here I assure you I am not. I’m simply seeking an answer, if there is one, to my question. 
thanks again for all your input. 

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Dscott said:

And to “webbles” your talking about the different pronunciation of the name Jesus in different languages my question has to do with the actual name change from Yeshua to Jesus.

No, it isn't just different pronunciation.  For example, James in English is Tiago in Portuguese.  They don't sound anything a like.  Jesus is the English version of His name.  It isn't a name change to me.

[Pyreaux]

The account of Mary naming Jesus was only ever in Greek. It was written by Luke who spoke Greek and he may have never known Hebrew. His Gospel was written to Theophilus, in the Greek. There are no Hebrew versions of the New Testament. Luke wrote what in the Strong's Greek: 2424 Ἰησοῦς "Iésous", So, all Greek speaking Jews like Luke, Paul, all Roman converts and enemies were all calling him "Iésus". Even though it may derive from the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎‎ (only modernly pronounced) "Yəhōšūaʿ", but the name has a common alternative form, the name יֵשׁוּעַ‎ "Yēšūaʿ" which corresponds to the Greek spelling Ἰησοῦς "Iesous".

The Latin "Iésus" sometimes had a "J" but it was just a stylish "I" until it became its own letter, and in English sounds like "gee." In Portuguese it sounds like "geh," and Spanish it sounds like "hey." Which one of these pronunciations is the correct one? All of them, of course, in their own language. Who are you to tell them what Biblical Hebrew sounds like? Should it really sound like a "yeh"? Nobody actually knows. However unlikely, it could have possibly sounded like Joshua or Jesus in Hebrew for all we really know, spoken Hebrew died unspoken for a thousand years. If my name was Luke, and my grandkids only spoke Japanese and called me ルウク "ruuku", that's just how it is, that is how it is in their language. I can't expect them to learn how to pronounce an "L", they don't have an "L". What's the point of correcting only one English word for them if English became a dead language? Why would I care now about how much my name has changed in Japanese if I never cared enough about English to at least preserve the English language in the first place? I must not care. Right?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Dscott said:

I’m talking about the name that he was known and called by in his day by all that knew of him.

And how would you know how to say this name?

https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-culture/language/real-story-hebrew-pronunciation/

Edited January 16, 2023 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:00 PM, Pyreaux said:

... Some of them make it sound like you must say the holy names to be heard or accepted and some back-peddle [emphasis added by Kenngo1969] saying they just would rather hear their own names, "wouldn't you?" ... 

Really?   They're sales representatives who ride their bikes backward from door-to-door?  Oh, I'll bet that's fun.  Challenging, too, I'm sure.   Pedal, peddle ... Leave it to a pedant such as I to point out that someone who used the latter actually intended to use the former.  As the noted Professor of English, Dr. Festus Doofus, Ph.D., of the University of Southern Nowhar put it once, "Oh, them thar homophones!  They's tricky thangs!"  

Sorry.   Couldn't resist!   We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming.

[Pyreaux]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:59 PM, Dscott said:

I have not heard of divine name theology before so I had to Google it to see if that had to do with my question. I don’t believe it does. 

Sorry, I mean Sacred Name theology, the Messianic Jews have Sacred Name Bibles you can get, some for free, where they replaced Jesus' name with Yeshua, and replaced the Lord with Yahweh.  Everything you've said, that you read online, is exactly what they say. This doesn't answer the question, whether you know it or not, it is the source of the questions. The church supports the Ineffable Name theology. Jesus is the Lord, and everything we call him is not his real name, his true name is a secret (Judges 13:18). The importance is not whether Jesus knows when we are calling on him (as I'm sure he does), but whether everyone else knows who we mean, as long as the world Jesus, so will we. Even the divine device, the Urim and Thummim, translated the name sacred name Yhwh into Jesus Christ. Just as the Holy Ghost inspired Luke to translate Yhwh in Strong's Greek: 2962. κύριος (kurios) - Lord. When calling on the Lord, Lord seems uninterested about how to pronounce His Hebrew name.

You could start a Sacred Name movement in the church. As simple as just read from your personal Sacred Name Bible in Sunday School. Write letters to leaders to consider following this new vernacular, slip some sacred names into a conference talk. Try to publish a Sacred Name Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Yeshua ha-Mashiah.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:58 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Really?   They're sales representatives who ride their bikes backward from door-to-door?  Oh, I'll bet that's fun.  Challenging, too, I'm sure.   Pedal, peddle ... Leave it to a pedant such as I to point out that someone who used the latter actually intended to use the former.  As the noted Professor of English, Dr. Festus Doofus, Ph.D., of the University of Southern Nowhar put it once, "Oh, them thar homophones!  They's tricky thangs!"  

Sorry.   Couldn't resist!   We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming.

[Kenngo1969]

It's Ach-ggggghhh-med!  

[The Nehor]

Revealing Jesus’s True Name would just make him vulnerable to any hermetic wizard with a basic knowledge of spellcraft and who knows how to bind beings using their true name. Would you do that to your son?