Putting the Church’s “Rainy Day Fund” In Perspective

[gav]

8 hours ago, ttribe said:

And when, exactly, is this New Jerusalem scheduled to be built? Before or after the calamaties allegedly foretold by sacred texts?

The World is and has been experiencing those calamitous times increasingly since at least the restoration. If in doubt simply review the world history of the 20th century. This one isn't looking to be a picnic either as the spectre of nuclear exchange raises its head.

Globalisation, and its accompanying prosperity for many nations, looks to be permanently stuck in reverse gear as we enter Cold War 2.0 and will spell economic disaster for those nations with export driven economies and insufficient local consumption. This global house of cards built on consumerism and perpetual(dare I say motion) growth economic policy is without any actual foundation. This great and spacious building of consumerism is destined to fall, as every great civilisation before it has, once they became top heavy.

Babylon falls before the City of Zion is built. The Whore of all the Earth fornicates with all the kings of the earth with various other dominance, materialistic, drunken, whanton and unfaithfulness metaphors. How apt these metaphors describe the prosperous peak of globalism. That peak passed last decade...

These are the last years of plenty and it is not surprising that the church is accumulating as Joseph did, the lean years are just around the corner. The Latter-day church does represent the house of Joseph after all. 2008 was just a warning shot and the globe is still reeling from its effects. Enjoy 2023 while you can. 2024 is going to be a huge OUCH.

Joseph's 10 brothers go down to him in Egypt a few years into the famine(read - economic collapse). The 10 lost tribes return to help Joseph build the New Jerusalem along with the remnant of the Lamanites. How many Latin Americans are streaming across the southern border as we type?

I could go on endlessly about the typology of the collapse periods of the Book of Mormon and how were are closely tracking the Nauvoo period of the restoration but I think this is sufficient for now.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 hours ago, Teancum said:

Your comments give me a lot of insight into the mind of those who are true believers (which I do not mean is a disparaging way).

Thanks.

Quote

There was a time I likely would have felt the same.

I find it interesting that you aren't sure. I feel like I could never forget what I have personally experienced when it comes to repeated fulfilment of divine promises, but I suspect that it may not actually work that way.

Edited January 14 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This seems to imply that you believe the second coming of Christ is quite far into the future, since it will take time to go from a "tiny footprint now" to "tens of thousands of more temples" etc. Is this correct?

Correct. 

Quote

I ask because I've also read posters here say that the prophecies are being fulfilled and the second coming is going to happen shortly.

Yeah, I see that on this forum sometimes too. Personally, I look at the prophecies and just see a tremendous amount of work that we should be doing. In the post you quoted, I noted that Elder Bednar told us we were just starting to build the global church. I believe him. (I also believe/d Pres Hinckley who, when he spoke to us students at my undergraduate university in America, told us not to worry that the return of Christ was going to disrupt any of our career or family plans in any way.)

I'll use my nation as an example. I just used the online Church Directory of Organisations and Leaders to look up all of our stakes. We have dozens of them. Only three of which are headquartered in a city less than half a million. The Church's presence here is almost exclusively in a handful of very large cities (multiple millions).

My own ward stretches 160km from south to north on paper, but in reality all of our members live in one corner of our city. Our missionaries never set foot in the hundred or more towns that make up the rest of our ward geographically. Will they someday? I hope so! Like I said, we've got a lot of work to do.

And navel-gazing in the face of all the nay-saying (such as this thread) isn't going to get any of it done.

Edited January 14 by Hamba Tuhan

[california boy]

10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

New Jerusalem will have been established already by the time of Christ's Second Advent.  And yes, the Church of Jesus Christ will need resources to do that.  And as for Christ simply "showing Church leaders where the gold is," where, in your reading of the Doctrine and Covenants, did you get the idea that that's how God works with His servants?

There are countless scriptures where God provided just what His people needed that were miraculous.  Providing Mana for example, or seagulls, or fish and loaves of bread.  God just made it appear. So whether New Jerusalem is established before or after the beginning of the Second Coming is irrelevant.  If resources were needed to accomplish God's work, he could provide.

If you are going to rely on Scripture to justify the Church's wealth, I would ask you the same question.  Where in the Scriptures does it say that His church needs to sock away billions in order for His work to go forth to pay for the Second Coming.  Where is the revelation like the one Joseph got to store wheat for 7 years of famine so that all could be prepared.  Why is secrecy needed this time?

Edited January 14 by california boy

[Analytics]

13 hours ago, provoman said:

not for an argument, it is just mere curiosity; how does billions, cover trillions?

Great question.

1- Many people with insurance won’t file claims; they’ll have the good fortune of dying without an expensive stint in a nursing home, they’ll surrender their life insurance policy for a cash value much less than the death benefit, etc.

2- Most of the claims on the 4.9 million policies that do occur won’t happen for several years and often decades. This means that the company has a lot of future premiums to further beef up its asset portfolio before the bills are due.

3- Further, the current assets and future premiums will be multiplied by future investment returns before the bills are due.

When people wonder how the Church can survive for 50 years with “only” 100 billion in its investment portfolio, I wonder if they are taking future investment returns and future tithing receipts into consideration.

[gav]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

There are countless scriptures where God provided just what His people needed that were miraculous.  Providing Mana for example, or seagulls.  God just made it appear. So whether New Jerusalem is established before or after the beginning of the Second Coming is irrelevant.  If resources were needed to accomplish God's work, he could provide.

This sentiment has been expressed before...

Doctrine and Covenants 105:8-9

8 But I speak concerning my churches abroad—there are many who will say: Where is their God? Behold, he will deliver them in time of trouble, otherwise we will not go up unto Zion, and will keep our moneys.

9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion

Quote

I would ask you the same question.  Where in the Scriptures does it say that His church needs to sock away billions in order for His work to go forth?  

Doctrine and Covenants 105:27–37

27 And I will soften the hearts of the people, as I did the heart of Pharaoh, from time to time, until my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and mine elders, whom I have appointed, shall have time to gather up the strength of my house,

28 And to have sent wise men, to fulfil that which I have commanded concerning the purchasing of all the lands in Jackson county that can be purchased, and in the adjoining counties round about.

29 For it is my will that these lands should be purchased; and after they are purchased that my saints should possess them according to the laws of consecration which I have given.

30 And after these lands are purchased, I will hold the armies of Israel guiltless in taking possession of their own lands, which they have previously purchased with their moneys, and of throwing down the towers of mine enemies that may be upon them, and scattering their watchmen, and avenging me of mine enemies unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

31 But first let my army become very great, and let it be sanctified before me, that it may become fair as the sun, and clear as the moon, and that her banners may be terrible unto all nations;

32 That the kingdoms of this world may be constrained to acknowledge that the kingdom of Zion is in very deed the kingdom of our God and his Christ; therefore, let us become subject unto her laws.

33 Verily I say unto you, it is expedient in me that the first elders of my church should receive their aendowment from on high in my house, which I have commanded to be built unto my name in the land of Kirtland.

34 And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption.

35 There has been a day of calling, but the time has come for a day of choosing; and let those be chosen that are worthy.

36 And it shall be manifest unto my servant, by the voice of the Spirit, those that are chosen; and they shall be sanctified;

37 And inasmuch as they follow the counsel which they receive, they shall have power after many days to accomplish all things pertaining to Zion.

Edited January 14 by gav

[Analytics]

10 hours ago, helix said:

A $1.2 trillion fund "isn't that large."

And the church's $100-$200 billion fund is "obscene". 

The bias is ridiculous.

Norway provides full healthcare coverage to millions of people. And generous pension benefits. And disability insurance. And long-term care insurance. Those commitments are extremely valuable and expensive, and having a trillion in assets isn’t very much considering those benefits of Norwegian citizenship.

If the Church gave free lifetime health insurance to all members with $0 coinsurance, $0 deductible, and no lifetime maximum, having $200 billion in reserves wouldn’t be that large, either.

You have to compare the size of the reserves to the commitment and vision of the respective organizations. Norway provides valuable, expensive benefits. The Church does not.

 

[Mark Beesley]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

I have to say, I never ever thought that Christ would need money for anything to accomplish His goals.  Just never occurred to me. What I did think is that if Christ, or the Church for that matter, needed money for any critical reason, couldn't Christ just tell Church leaders where vast gold reserves are at?  Or couldn't he cause the gold to rise to the surface?  If not gold, than whatever was needed to accomplish His goals.  

This whole idea that Christ is relying on the Church as a financial backer of His second coming is a new concept for me to think about.  I actually, like others, can't see how a stock portfolio will help when the second coming starts.  I don't see it as a peaceful transition.  And well, the market never responds to uncertainty well.  Look how much the market has dropped just based on inflation and fear of recession.  Those worries about corporate survival seem pretty trivial compared to what is prophesied about the second coming.

I personally don't really care about the amount of wealth the Church has and continues to build up.  I just wish they were a bit more honest about it and let people decide for themselves if they want to be a member of a Church who is focused on a stock portfolio rather than humanitarian goals.  Maybe full disclosure before baptism is needed?  Let people know what they are getting into?

Perhaps if you did not have such a warped view of how the Lord accomplishes His work in a fallen world—and make no mistake, this is and will remain a fallen world during the foundation of the New Jerusalem—if you had a clear understanding of how the Lord works, then perhaps your understanding of other challenging issues in your life could be illuminated and you could be free from the bondage of ignorance to the ways and Will of the Lord. You might try reviewing the Lords revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants relative to the founding of the new Jerusalem as a starter.

[Mark Beesley]

15 hours ago, ttribe said:

Who's saying there is no value in those things the Church does? I'm certainly not. We are arguing over degrees not a 1 or zero. Both Analytics and me are suggesting there is a great deal more the Church could be doing. You seem to be satisfied with the status quo.

How do you know I haven't put in the time or effort? I was trying to elicit your interpretation of the text.

1. The value of the member services affects the degree, but you want to ignore that.

2. I know you have not put in the time or the effort because you asked the foolish question of wanting to know “exactly” the  timing of the events precedent to the second coming.

Edited January 14 by Mark Beesley

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, california boy said:

There are countless scriptures where God provided just what His people needed that were miraculous.  Providing Mana for example, or seagulls, or fish and loaves of bread.  God just made it appear. So whether New Jerusalem is established before or after the beginning of the Second Coming is irrelevant.  If resources were needed to accomplish God's work, he could provide.

If you are going to rely on Scripture to justify the Church's wealth, I would ask you the same question.  Where in the Scriptures does it say that His church needs to sock away billions in order for His work to go forth to pay for the Second Coming.  Where is the revelation like the one Joseph got to store wheat for 7 years of famine so that all could be prepared.  Why is secrecy needed this time?

Jacob 2: 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

D&C 104: 11 It is wisdom in me; therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship… 15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine. 16 But it must needs be done in mine own away; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. 17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

Moses 7:17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish. 18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

3 Nephi 26: 20 And it came to pass that they did do all things even as Jesus had commanded them.

In all these things God miraculously provides what His people need, sometimes before they need it, sometimes as they need it, and sometimes sooner, and sometimes later. No big deal there. This is why we have D&C 120: 1, "Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it [tithing per D&C 119*] shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen."

*Verse 2 in particular: "For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church." -- these uses represent both preparatory and responsive applications.

[ttribe]

48 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

1. The value of the member services affects the degree, but you want to ignore that.

2. I know you have not put in the time or the effort because you asked the foolish question of wanting to know “exactly” the  timing of the events precedent to the second coming.

1. I don't wish to ignore it at all. I don't think the Church gets enough credit for the work of its members, on the whole. That being said, that doesn't preclude me from suggesting that it is under utilizing one of its assets.

2. No, you really don't know anything about me or my effort. You're dismissing my question based on a superficial reading of the discussion. The argument in play is that the Church is siting on an enormous pile of cash and equity investments and putting it to no use. The response from you is that it will take a lot to build the Kingdom. The natural question then is "When?" Not because I'm ignoring the prophecies of scripture, but because in any practical sense, these types of investments make no sense in the event(s) of the allegedly foretold calamities.

[ttribe]

8 hours ago, gav said:

The World is and has been experiencing those calamitous times increasingly since at least the restoration. If in doubt simply review the world history of the 20th century. This one isn't looking to be a picnic either as the spectre of nuclear exchange raises its head.

Globalisation, and its accompanying prosperity for many nations, looks to be permanently stuck in reverse gear as we enter Cold War 2.0 and will spell economic disaster for those nations with export driven economies and insufficient local consumption. This global house of cards built on consumerism and perpetual(dare I say motion) growth economic policy is without any actual foundation. This great and spacious building of consumerism is destined to fall, as every great civilisation before it has, once they became top heavy.

Babylon falls before the City of Zion is built. The Whore of all the Earth fornicates with all the kings of the earth with various other dominance, materialistic, drunken, whanton and unfaithfulness metaphors. How apt these metaphors describe the prosperous peak of globalism. That peak passed last decade...

These are the last years of plenty and it is not surprising that the church is accumulating as Joseph did, the lean years are just around the corner. The Latter-day church does represent the house of Joseph after all. 2008 was just a warning shot and the globe is still reeling from its effects. Enjoy 2023 while you can. 2024 is going to be a huge OUCH.

Joseph's 10 brothers go down to him in Egypt a few years into the famine(read - economic collapse). The 10 lost tribes return to help Joseph build the New Jerusalem along with the remnant of the Lamanites. How many Latin Americans are streaming across the southern border as we type?

I could go on endlessly about the typology of the collapse periods of the Book of Mormon and how were are closely tracking the Nauvoo period of the restoration but I think this is sufficient for now.

You realize that people have been saying these exact same things for generations; centuries even?

[ttribe]

10 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Yes, that it's not apples to apples is the irreconcilable aspect I refer to. When I do understand what he is saying (admittedly it isn't frequent enough!), I find it to be invigorating until the suggestion (though perhaps not said outright) the Brethren are hoarding money for the sake of hoarding it alone. There is an undercurrent (if not right on the surface!) of moral judgement there that I find distasteful. And yes, the biggest core assumption on their part is arguing against the folly of believing there is a 2nd Coming. While I don't begrudge anyone for not believing, in order to have a more productive conversation there has to be some concession beyond something like the patronizing and even insulting "Well, I used to have blind faith years ago like you do" kind of diattribe. ; )

I think you're reading something into my words that isn't there. Namely, that I am somehow attempting to talk down to you regarding your reliance on faith. That is not the case. I was trying to tell you that I understand your argument, but that you don't seem willing to understand mine.

[gav]

33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You realize that people have been saying these exact same things for generations; centuries even?

Is that your justification? To simply dismiss it out of hand? One of those generations is going to be correct. If it's yours do you want to be the one that never took it seriously enough to evaluate what is going on around you?

[Vanguard]

29 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I think you're reading something into my words that isn't there. Namely, that I am somehow attempting to talk down to you regarding your reliance on faith. That is not the case. I was trying to tell you that I understand your argument, but that you don't seem willing to understand mine.

That's fair enough and I appreciate that clarification though it's hard to believe when someone like you uses the term 'blind faith' to mean anything but something derogatory. And I am trying to understand your argument. Absent the all important concession (which I have been trying to bridge) of planning for the 2nd Coming, however, the argument falls flat unless, that is, you're trying to argue that even allowing for this believed event, the numbers don't add up? I don't think you're making this particular argument though. And so surely you can see how it does not sufficiently resonate for believers, right?

[Stormin' Mormon]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don't know that there will be commerce and business.

You think when God reigns as king of the Earth people are going to accuse Him of violating their mineral rights. And why assume gold will still have value? We are supposed to pave the streets with it so our cars will all become death traps trying to get traction on the gold roads as was prophesied.

As I understand it, the Millenium will be a period of terrestrial law. Whereas, we are currently in the earth's telestial existence, and post-Millennium the earth will be Celestial, the Millenium will be a period of transition between the two states. Economics and commerce at that time will be more elevated than it currently is, but it won't yet be the perfect law-of-consecration ideal either.

As such, I don't see why we shouldn't expect a terrestrial-law level of economics and commerce during the Millenium.

Edited January 14 by Stormin' Mormon

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

As I understand it, the Millenium will be a period of terrestrial law. Whereas, we are currently in the earth's telestial existence, and post-Millennium the earth will be Celestial, the Millenium will be a period of transition between the two states. Economics and commerce at that time will be more elevated than it currently is, but it won't yet be the perfect law-of-consecration ideal either.

As such, I don't see why we shouldn't expect a terrestrial-law level of economics and commerce during the Millenium.

Why assume capitalism is a terrestrial level principle?

[Eschaton]

23 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, I noted that and thought I'd comment from a doctrinal perspective. As I invited Analytics to do after he shared his business perspective, what is the message you would like to get across in relation to the Gospel (the message consisting of what benefits your life and would benefit others reading your historical analysis)?

If I'm looking at what Jesus the historical Jewish preacher taught, I suppose his message of radical inclusion and the inversion of the social order is the one that seems to stick the most - although it's only tangentially related to the topic of this thread. 

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Preparing for the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will, I am sure, require plenty of resources.

Can you explain how?  What good would a portfolio of stocks do you in the even of cataclysmic events that will allegedly surround his coming?  And if the church leaders are just accumulating the funds now what do you suppose they may be  used for?

[rodheadlee]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don't know that there will be commerce and business.

You think when God reigns as king of the Earth people are going to accuse Him of violating their mineral rights. And why assume gold will still have value? We are supposed to pave the streets with it so our cars will all become death traps trying to get traction on the gold roads as was prophesied.

I think the answered to that is somewhere in Isaiah. I just can't recall where. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Eschaton said:

If I'm looking at what Jesus the historical Jewish preacher taught, I suppose his message of radical inclusion and the inversion of the social order is the one that seems to stick the most - although it's only tangentially related to the topic of this thread. 

What radical inclusion and inversion of social order, in relation to the Gospel, benefits your life and would benefit others reading your historical analysis?

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, ttribe said:

You realize that people have been saying these exact same things for generations; centuries even?

Yes but only recently has a man had the ability to destroy the Earth or at least the people on her.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

Perhaps if you did not have such a warped view of how the Lord accomplishes His work in a fallen world—and make no mistake, this is and will remain a fallen world during the foundation of the New Jerusalem—if you had a clear understanding of how the Lord works, then perhaps your understanding of other challenging issues in your life could be illuminated and you could be free from the bondage of ignorance to the ways and Will of the Lord. You might try reviewing the Lords revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants relative to the founding of the new Jerusalem as a starter.

I will keep your judgement of me in mind.  I did only spend the first 50 years of my life in the church, serving in a bishopric, on high council, taught seminary for 6 years, taught gospel doctrine, young mens president for years, to name just a few of the things I experienced.    

But to be honest, the judgement of others, like you, has made me draw further away from wanting to be a part of the Church any longer.  That and the many things I have learned being away from the Church as I learned to rely on God more rather than any man.  I am sure you have my life figured out, but I plan to stick with the path that I feel inspired to live.

[california boy]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Jacob 2: 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

D&C 104: 11 It is wisdom in me; therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship… 15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine. 16 But it must needs be done in mine own away; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. 17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

Moses 7:17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish. 18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

3 Nephi 26: 20 And it came to pass that they did do all things even as Jesus had commanded them.

In all these things God miraculously provides what His people need, sometimes before they need it, sometimes as they need it, and sometimes sooner, and sometimes later. No big deal there. This is why we have D&C 120: 1, "Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it [tithing per D&C 119*] shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen."

*Verse 2 in particular: "For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church." -- these uses represent both preparatory and responsive applications.

Well I personally am not seeing a directive to accumulate billions of dollars, but hey, that is ok.  If those scriptures comfort you and other members that the Church is doing the right thing and fulfilling the goals of the Church, then I am glad.  

[CV75]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Well I personally am not seeing a directive to accumulate billions of dollars, but hey, that is ok.  If those scriptures comfort you and other members that the Church is doing the right thing and fulfilling the goals of the Church, then I am glad.  

How specific are the documents you reference for guiding the actions of the communities or organizations to which you belong and contribute? Please provide some examples, and why such specific directives are necessary.