Putting the Church’s “Rainy Day Fund” In Perspective

[california boy]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How specific are the documents you reference for guiding the actions of the communities or organizations to which you belong and contribute? Please provide some examples, and why such specific directives are necessary.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[ttribe]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes but only recently has a man had the ability to destroy the Earth or at least the people on her.

You do have a point on that one.

[ttribe]

23 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Comments like these are the reason that defenders continue to point out that no one is getting rich off Ensign Peak.

In one breath, critics say that the "no one is getting rich" point is immaterial, and in the next, they compare the LDS church to the Osteen Empire.

You can't have it both ways.

I think you read my comment a bit too literally. The invocation of any form of the "prosperity Gospel" type of thinking prompted me to point out that such thinking leads to dark places. That being said, the fact that none of the Brethren appear to be directly benefiting from the investment largess is very much in the favor of the Church, in my opinion.

[provoman]

21 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We need it to build a Generation ship called the Navoo.

Fred J said he can do it.

[gopher]

This is on my list of favorite criticisms of the Church.  I'm impressed with all the time and effort that has been spent making it.

[mrmarklin]

I heard from a real estate developer buddy of mine that the plan for the money is to develop a Vatican like Church center where the prophet and the apostles can live and preside in comfort. This is to be in downtown SLC. Very on the QT. They’re remodeling the temple now, but this will be only the beginning. Huge living quarters are well into the planning stages, as well as a giant tabernacle with a viewing platform and gardens on the roof. There will be plenty of room to display artwork and people are scouring Europe right now looking to buy some very prestigious pieces of art as the U.K. and mainland Europe becomes more secular. Rumor has it that they are close to a deal on the original Christus. 
With a center like this, protesters, homeless, gay activists etc. can be controlled. 
And comfortable living quarters for the hierarchy, with indoor swimming pools, tennis courts, lawns, etc. are protected from the plebes, so to speak. There is plenty of land in downtown SLC, and the Church owns most of it already. 
You can see that a project like this would cost billions. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by mrmarklin

[Calm]

1 minute ago, mrmarklin said:

I heard from a real estate developer buddy of mine that the plan for the money is to develop a Vatican like Church center where the prophet and the apostles can live and preside in comfort. This is to be in downtown SLC. Very on the QT. They’re remodeling the temple now, but this will be only the beginning. Huge living quarters are well into the planning stages, as well as a giant tabernacle with a viewing platform and gardens on the roof. There will be plenty of room to display artwork and people are scouring Europe right now looking to buy some very prestigious pieces of art as the U.K. and mainland Europe becomes more secular. Rumor has it that they are close to a deal on the original Christus. 
With a center like this, protesters, homeless, gay activists etc. can be controlled. 
And comfortable living quarters for the hierarchy, with indoor swimming pools, tennis courts, lawns, etc. are protected from the plebes, so to speak. There is plenty of land in downtown SLC, and the Church owns most of it already. 
You can see that a project like this would cost billions. 

This is a joke, correct?

[LoudmouthMormon]

20 hours ago, provoman said:

On 1/13/2023 at 11:54 PM, rodheadlee said:

We need it to build a Generation ship called the Navoo.

Fred J said he can do it.

I volunteer to clear the thing for radiation leaks after it's loaded but right before the crew and passengers board.

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I heard from a real estate developer buddy of mine that the plan for the money is to develop a Vatican like Church center where the prophet and the apostles can live and preside in comfort. This is to be in downtown SLC. Very on the QT. They’re remodeling the temple now, but this will be only the beginning. Huge living quarters are well into the planning stages, as well as a giant tabernacle with a viewing platform and gardens on the roof. There will be plenty of room to display artwork and people are scouring Europe right now looking to buy some very prestigious pieces of art as the U.K. and mainland Europe becomes more secular. Rumor has it that they are close to a deal on the original Christus. 
With a center like this, protesters, homeless, gay activists etc. can be controlled. 
And comfortable living quarters for the hierarchy, with indoor swimming pools, tennis courts, lawns, etc. are protected from the plebes, so to speak. There is plenty of land in downtown SLC, and the Church owns most of it already. 
You can see that a project like this would cost billions. 

Sequestering the leadership from the masses for their own safety may very well become a necessity as we march forward. : ( But then they would definitely need their own 18 hole, par 72 championship golf course too... ;o

Edited January 16, 2023 by Vanguard

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I heard from a real estate developer buddy of mine that the plan for the money is to develop a Vatican like Church center where the prophet and the apostles can live and preside in comfort.

Will they get a series of zip-lines to travel between the different buildings? 

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's..... Dieter F. Uchtdorf screaming in delight.

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/14/2023 at 2:13 AM, gav said:

... Babylon falls before the City of Zion is built. ... [emphasis in original]

While I welcome correction from anyone who is more in tune and more erudite than I, I'm not sure about that.  As I understand it, the purpose of establishing Zion is to prepare as many as are willing for the Lord's Second Advent.  That is, to prepare a people who are ready to receive the Lord at His Coming.  Then, once Zion is established, He Comes to receive her unto Himself, to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords ... and to make Babylon's fall complete, as those who are not ready will be consumed at His Coming.

[gav]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

While I welcome correction from anyone who is more in tune and more erudite than I, I'm not sure about that.  As I understand it, the purpose of establishing Zion is to prepare as many as are willing for the Lord's Second Advent.  That is, to prepare a people who are ready to receive the Lord at His Coming.  Then, once Zion is established, He Comes to receive her unto Himself, to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords ... and to make Babylon's fall complete, as those who are not ready will be consumed at His Coming.

This will take a bit more lengthy response, will type one up.

[mfbukowski]

Error

Edited January 16, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Mark Beesley]

On 1/14/2023 at 2:35 PM, california boy said:

I will keep your judgement of me in mind.  I did only spend the first 50 years of my life in the church, serving in a bishopric, on high council, taught seminary for 6 years, taught gospel doctrine, young mens president for years, to name just a few of the things I experienced.    

But to be honest, the judgement of others, like you, has made me draw further away from wanting to be a part of the Church any longer.  That and the many things I have learned being away from the Church as I learned to rely on God more rather than any man.  I am sure you have my life figured out, but I plan to stick with the path that I feel inspired to live.

I provided a reasonable explanation of why the Church might need extensive financial reserves in the future, and you raised your voice in feigned ignorance of how the or why the Church might need such reserves. Can’t God just make gold rise to the surface you asked in mocking innocence. Sheesh!  If, as you say, you served 50 years in the positions you  claim—and I have no reason to doubt your history—then you will be familiar with the Doctrine and Covenants and the instructions of the Lord incident to the building up of His Kingdom (the Church) in the Last Days. You will know that the Kingdom of God, existing in the midst if Babylon, renders unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.
 

You can act like you are offended, but it is an act. We both know it. If you will humble yourself and present yourself to the Lord on His terms rather than your own, you will feel no need to draw away from His Church, and we will embrace you without judgment. But if you raise an ugly voice against the Lord, expect a response. 
 

[Mark Beesley]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:22 AM, ttribe said:

1. I don't wish to ignore it at all. I don't think the Church gets enough credit for the work of its members, on the whole. That being said, that doesn't preclude me from suggesting that it is under utilizing one of its assets.

2. No, you really don't know anything about me or my effort. You're dismissing my question based on a superficial reading of the discussion. The argument in play is that the Church is siting on an enormous pile of cash and equity investments and putting it to no use. The response from you is that it will take a lot to build the Kingdom. The natural question then is "When?" Not because I'm ignoring the prophecies of scripture, but because in any practical sense, these types of investments make no sense in the event(s) of the allegedly foretold calamities.

Zeezrom inquired of Alma of things which he had not studied to know. Alma’s response to him, and I am paraphrasing, It is given to many to know the mysteries of God, but they are laid under a strict command not to impart or share those mysteries with unbelievers, i.e. those who have not paid sufficient heed to the word if the Lord.  Inquiries about the exact timing of the events which will precede the Second Coming if the Lord, are in truth,  seeking to understand mysteries.  The timing of the Second Coming is shrouded in secrecy. The Lord will come as a thief in the night. The faithful, those who have given heed and diligence to the Word of the Lord will see the sign and recognize the various events. It seems the unfaithful are demanding the same information and knowledge the faithful sought for humbly. Doesn't work that way.

Here are Alma’s exact words from chapter 12 of the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

We invite you to cast off the chains of hell, and humbly seek knowledge. 

 

[california boy]

59 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

I provided a reasonable explanation of why the Church might need extensive financial reserves in the future, and you raised your voice in feigned ignorance of how the or why the Church might need such reserves. Can’t God just make gold rise to the surface you asked in mocking innocence. Sheesh!  If, as you say, you served 50 years in the positions you  claim—and I have no reason to doubt your history—then you will be familiar with the Doctrine and Covenants and the instructions of the Lord incident to the building up of His Kingdom (the Church) in the Last Days. You will know that the Kingdom of God, existing in the midst if Babylon, renders unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.
 

You can act like you are offended, but it is an act. We both know it. If you will humble yourself and present yourself to the Lord on His terms rather than your own, you will feel no need to draw away from His Church, and we will embrace you without judgment. But if you raise an ugly voice against the Lord, expect a response. 
 

Sorry, but you are absolutely judging me wrongly.  You, nor anyone else knows the plans of God and how He will fulfill those plans.  He is not reliant on what man does to fulfil His mission.  I don't know how the millennium will be set up or financed.  Neither do you.  What I do know is that what man does is puny and unimportant compared to the power of God.   God is not relying on the stock market in order to bring about His will.  He is more interested in bringing people back to him than earthly wealth.  That I know.  That is the lesson I learned from my devotion to God.

To say my beliefs are an act is insulting and wrongly judgmental.

Edited January 16, 2023 by california boy

[Teancum]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:31 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

I reject your characterization that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preparing for the Second Coming amounts to "sitting on [its] wealth."  It's building temples; and chapels; and other facilities; and operating them; and so on. 

And it does this out of its annual operating funds. It does not use the EPA assets at all for anything other than two for profit business ventures.

On 1/13/2023 at 7:31 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

And the Church of Jesus Christ can "walk and chew gum at the same time" by alleviating temporal suffering, while, at the same time, seeing to the spiritual needs of its members and of others through attending to other prongs of its mission, such as perfecting the Saints, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and redeeming the dead. 

Again, I refer you to the passage I quoted earlier from King Benjamin's address in Mosiah 4: "See that all these things are done in wisdom and order."

Sure. It is just that the Church puts a very small % of its assets to alleviate temporal suffering on an annual basis.  And my guess if King Benjamin were a real person he would agree with me.

[Calm]

Quote

It does not use the EPA assets at all for anything other than two for profit business ventures.

I find it amazing that this is recited as a current established fact when it is out of date at the very least and may have been misinterpreted info from the beginning. 

[Mark Beesley]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sorry, but you are absolutely judging me wrongly.  You, nor anyone else knows the plans of God and how He will fulfill those plans.  He is not reliant on what man does to fulfil His mission.  I don't know how the millennium will be set up or financed.  Neither do you.  What I do know is that what man does is puny and unimportant compared to the power of God.   God is not relying on the stock market in order to bring about His will.  He is more interested in bringing people back to him than earthly wealth.  That I know.  That is the lesson I learned from my devotion to God.

To say my beliefs are an act is insulting and wrongly judgmental.

To clarify, I did not say your beliefs are an act. I wrote that your feigned offense, the way you are acting, is an act. I stand by that. And you should expect your sincerity to be challenged when you write the things you do.

To suggest that no one knows what the Lord’s plans are is to deny the reality of revelation. See Alma 12:9-11. 

We invite you also to escape the chains of hell and come back to the light.

[Teancum]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:51 AM, CV75 said:

Jacob 2: 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

And the church is not doing this to the extent the church could.

 

On 1/14/2023 at 11:51 AM, CV75 said:

D&C 104: 11 It is wisdom in me; therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship… 15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine. 16 But it must needs be done in mine own away; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. 17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

Moses 7:17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish. 18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.  ....

 

Is there no poor amongst us, amongst the church?  Yet they church has 100 billion or more sitting there. I guess Zion is not a priorty right now?

On 1/14/2023 at 11:51 AM, CV75 said:

 

 

[Teancum]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:01 PM, gav said:

Is that your justification? To simply dismiss it out of hand? One of those generations is going to be correct. If it's yours do you want to be the one that never took it seriously enough to evaluate what is going on around you?

Well your question was not to me but I would say yes. I dismiss claims of Jesus coming back because believers have been saying this is imminent for 2000 years.  Based on words Jesus allegedly said in the NT, those who believed in him then would not die. Why?  Because he was coming back soon.  The apostle Paul seemed to think the same thing. 

So yea, Jesus's return has been imminent for 2000 years. I doubt he is coming back soon or ever really. and all generations are likely wrong. He is not coming back. Ever.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

To clarify, I did not say your beliefs are an act. I wrote that your feigned offense, the way you are acting, is an act. I stand by that. And you should expect your sincerity to be challenged when you write the things you do.

I have been on this site since February 2009.  That is just about 14 years.  I have NEVER feigned anything.  What I write is how I feel.  If anything, I sometimes am too blunt. YOU are so out of line here and are breaking the board rules.  Nor are you entitled to sit in judgement over me and tell ME what I believe.  

 

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

To suggest that no one knows what the Lord’s plans are is to deny the reality of revelation. See Alma 12:9-11. 

Oh so there has been a revelation given on how God is going to finance the Second Coming.  I am very interested in just what has been revealed. Please provide the link the this revelation.  Yeah CFR!

 

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

We invite you also to escape the chains of hell and come back to the light.

Oh so now I am bound in chains in hell.  You are reminding me about everything I dislike about the Church.  YOU are not responsible for my salvation, nor are you qualified to pronounce any judgement on me.  If what you have learned in all YOUR years in the Church is that you have some kind of responsibility to go around judging others, it is you that have not been paying attention.   I can assure you, and tell you with complete honesty, I am NOT feigning offense here.  I am more than offended, I am pissed.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

Zeezrom inquired of Alma of things which he had not studied to know. Alma’s response to him, and I am paraphrasing, It is given to many to know the mysteries of God, but they are laid under a strict command not to impart or share those mysteries with unbelievers, i.e. those who have not paid sufficient heed to the word if the Lord.  Inquiries about the exact timing of the events which will precede the Second Coming if the Lord, are in truth,  seeking to understand mysteries.  The timing of the Second Coming is shrouded in secrecy. The Lord will come as a thief in the night. The faithful, those who have given heed and diligence to the Word of the Lord will see the sign and recognize the various events. It seems the unfaithful are demanding the same information and knowledge the faithful sought for humbly. Doesn't work that way.

Here are Alma’s exact words from chapter 12 of the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

We invite you to cast off the chains of hell, and humbly seek knowledge. 

 

Oh, that's rich.

BTW, your mind reading skills suck.

 

[Mark Beesley]

36 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have been on this site since February 2009.  That is just about 14 years.  I have NEVER feigned anything.  What I write is how I feel.  If anything, I sometimes am too blunt. YOU are so out of line here and are breaking the board rules.  Nor are you entitled to sit in judgement over me and tell ME what I believe.  

 

Oh so there has been a revelation given on how God is going to finance the Second Coming.  I am very interested in just what has been revealed. Please provide the link the this revelation.  Yeah CFR!

 

Oh so now I am bound in chains in hell.  You are reminding me about everything I dislike about the Church.  YOU are not responsible for my salvation, nor are you qualified to pronounce any judgement on me.  If what you have learned in all YOUR years in the Church is that you have some kind of responsibility to go around judging others, it is you that have not been paying attention.   I can assure you, and tell you with complete honesty, I am NOT feigning offense here.  I am more than offended, I am pissed.

Alma 12:9-11

1 Nephi 16:1-3

Doctrine & Covenants  88:81

Have a nice day.

 

 

 

[Mark Beesley]

17 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Oh, that's rich.

BTW, your mind reading skills suck.

 

Mind reading unnecessary. Words expose one’s thoughts.