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Putting the Church’s “Rainy Day Fund” In Perspective


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3 hours ago, ttribe said:

"Half a century"? (emphasis added). A century is only 100 years. BMPS has been around for 550 years.

Yep, rookie mistake on my part.  Analytic's claim was my church has enough $ to survive a millenia.  With the notable exception of the Catholic church, there's dang little evidence of ANY decent sized institution surviving that long, with the oldest bank being only half that old.  The list of entities as relatively wealthy as my church is long, but none of them seem to last.  (Again, with one very notable exception.)  So I feel my point stands.

 

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

A basic principle of economics is that resources are scarce and that we have to maximize everybody's wellbeing (i.e. their "utility", another unfortunate word, this time from economics) by making tradeoffs. Because of the diminishing marginal value of different things, the way to maximize utility is to make tradeoffs--you don't use all of your resources to produce guns, and you don't use all of your resources to produce butter. Utility will likely be maximized by coming to an optimal balance between the two.

Yep.  You lose me with your (seemingly still unexamined) assumption that owing billions of dollars worth of productive farmland stopped maximizing everyone's utility x number of billions ago, and the church needs to stop "hoarding" that productive farmland, by selling it to someone else that will use it to grow food in a way that somehow isn't considered hoarding by you. 

Or the equally-seemingly still unexamined assumption, that owning stocks in profit-producing entities that answer to their stockholders also doesn't maximize anyone's utility, so the church should sell X billions of stock to someone else that will buy it and own it in a way that somehow isn't considered hoarding by you.

 

2 hours ago, Analytics said:
4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hoarding, obscene, no vision.  These are unrighteous judgments on your part.

No, they are accurate evaluations of the situation by somebody who knows what he is talking about.

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

  You don't know what their vision is.

Actually, I do in fact know that they don't have a vision. Beyond upgrading Salt Lake City with a conference center and a shopping mall, they don't have a driving vision to do anything differently with their money, and don't have the courage to meddle with the tactics N. Eldon Tanner set up 60 years ago.

I might know about their lack of vision that because they refuse to articulate it and you can tell by how they operate. And I might know about their lack of vision from insider information I may or may not possess. I can't comment on that. 

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 You suspect a thrill, does that mean you allow for the possibility that there's something going on in their heads and hearts instead of the thrill of having assets?

Since you asked, I do in fact have the power of discernment. Their heads are primarily filled with lack of vision, lack of revelation, groupthink, and conservatism morphing into fear. They distract themselves from those things by admiring how big the hoard is.

*shrug*.  I don't believe you.  I don't believe you know they don't have a vision.  I don't believe that you know what primarily fills their heads.  You are bright, knowledgeable about macroeconomics and economic theory, apparently experienced in such things, and yet you continue to fail to persuade me that you have anything beyond a guess at what my church's leaders are thinking.

For all you know, they're preparing for the day that soon cometh when tribulations rain down on humanity, and the church will be one of the only entities out there producing food to sustain humanity as the few remaining years tick away with hungry pre-millennium humans clinging to failing institutions and huddling together for warmth and safety against the wars and plagues and disasters.  One would think it might at least be a possibility, especially since these folks, well, you know, run an entire organization trying to convince every human everywhere that's exactly what's coming.   But nah, they're probably like me, who checks his 401k weekly and plans for retirement.

You are not persuasive.  "Trust me bro" just doesn't have that much persuasive power with me.

I wonder if anyone ever accused Noah of hoarding, while they were off a'mockin' and a'scornin' and saying they knew he was a crazy and deluded person.  

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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Oh - wanted to comment on this too:

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And I might know about their lack of vision from insider information I may or may not possess. I can't comment on that. 

 

Meh.  Mormonleaks did their absolute best to find a smoking gun, and all they did was make us look good and themselves look like petty vindictive thieves.  Then there was that ex-Zion's bank employee who fired their silver bullets at the church werewolf by breaking their nondisclosure vows and talking about how much random prophet's wife spent on furniture for the temple.  It soaked up an hour of researching on how expensive fine furniture can be and how often it gets replaced before that person just looked ignorant and vindictive.  You think you've got a smoking gun?  Ten bucks says if you did comment on what you claim to know, it wouldn't be more persuasive than what you've produced to date.

Again, "trust me bro" just ain't cutting it.   Put up or go peddle your crazy somewhere else.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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6 hours ago, Analytics said:

... I think the takeaway is that we can infer from the Church's actions that the refrain to "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust and market crashes doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal" is no longer applicable in the 21st century, and that prudence dictates that we should all do our best to build up significant savings.

Hmm.  That is an interesting takeaway.  You're welcome to it, but I hope you won't be offended if I don't join you.  I think the admonition of Matthew 6:19-21 should be considered in light of the following scripture, from Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon:

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18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate [both physically and spiritually speaking] the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

[And to preach the Gospel (thereby providing spiritual sustenance, succor, nourishment and nurturing), to redeem the dead, to exalt and to benefit the family, and so on and so forth, literally ad infinitum.]

 

 

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

I also think an important gospel takeaway is to recognize that since the second commandment was given in the Garden of Eden, commandments have had irreconcilable contradictions and that we need to choose which ones to obey and which ones to break.

Perhaps.  Perhaps that is part of what Joseph Smith was referring to when he said this:

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That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another.  God said[,] thou shalt not kill—at another time he said, thou shalt utterly destroy.  This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed.  Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire.  [Source: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 255-56, accessed on line on January 13, 2023 at [of all places!] Mormonism Research Ministry, https://www.mrm.org/teachings-of-joseph-smith-quotes.  Gee, golly, but it would be nice if we could access things like this on line without having to depend on our critics, but that's another story for another day!]

 

 

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

 

The Church now asks its members to given 10% of their income to the Church and to have their own prudent savings. For those of us lucky enough to have the financial resources to pay a full tithing and to fully fund retirement accounts and emergency funds, good for us! For the rest of us, we should follow the Church's example and make personal savings our top priority, even if it means not paying tithing. 

Oh, come now!  With all due respect, while we may disagree on a great number of things relative to the Church of Jesus Christ, to me, you seem far too intelligent to engage in this sort of blatantly disingenuous nonsense! :rolleyes:   (Or am I wrong? :unknw:)  Surely you know that in addition to spiritual succor the Church of Jesus Christ provides temporal assistance to those in need.  Also, Ecclesiastes 3:1 comes to mind: "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven."

In any event, when it comes to balancing providing for one's own needs and those of others for whom the person is responsible and meeting one's obligation to "render unto God the things that are Gods" (see Mark 12:17), I think another scripture from the Book of Mormon puts things into perspective nicely: Mosiah 4:27.  (And while we're at it, I think it's interesting, and not a coincidence, that this admonition comes in the middle of King Benjamin's discourse on seeing to the needs of the poor.):

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27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

 

Edited by Kenngo1969
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50 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yep, rookie mistake on my part.  Analytic's claim was my church has enough $ to survive a millenia.  With the notable exception of the Catholic church, there's dang little evidence of ANY decent sized institution surviving that long, with the oldest bank being only half that old.  The list of entities as relatively wealthy as my church is long, but none of them seem to last.  (Again, with one very notable exception.)  So I feel my point stands.

I suspect his likely hyperbole here can also be supported mathematically without resorting to literalism on your part, but you do you, of course.

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Yep.  You lose me with your (seemingly still unexamined) assumption that owing billions of dollars worth of productive farmland stopped maximizing everyone's utility x number of billions ago, and the church needs to stop "hoarding" that productive farmland, by selling it to someone else that will use it to grow food in a way that somehow isn't considered hoarding by you. 

Or the equally-seemingly still unexamined assumption, that owning stocks in profit-producing entities that answer to their stockholders also doesn't maximize anyone's utility, so the church should sell X billions of stock to someone else that will buy it and own it in a way that somehow isn't considered hoarding by you.

I don't believe Analytics ever said anything about farmland or any real estate holdings for that matter. The "hoarding" charge is sufficiently supported by the investment fund, itself.

As for your argument about maximizing utility and ownership of stocks, you conveniently leave out that the Church claims to be a charitable organization. A for-profit entity or investment firm does not. Hence, the hoarding term still applies.

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*shrug*.  I don't believe you.  I don't believe you know they don't have a vision.  I don't believe that you know what primarily fills their heads.  You are bright, knowledgeable about macroeconomics and economic theory, apparently experienced in such things, and yet you continue to fail to persuade me that you have anything beyond a guess at what my church's leaders are thinking.

Do you know what fills their heads? Do you have anything beyond a guess? Analytics has offered a well-reasoned analysis. Shrugging it off to maintain belief in the pure intentions of your dear leaders is as fine an example of cognitive bias as exists and is equally reminiscent of any number of believers in other movements who were ultimately proven wrong at later dates. You are welcome to invoke faith all you want, but using it to dismiss fact and an analysis only reveals how shallow your thinking is on the subject.
 

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For all you know, they're preparing for the day that soon cometh when tribulations rain down on humanity, and the church will be one of the only entities out there producing food to sustain humanity as the few remaining years tick away with hungry pre-millennium humans clinging to failing institutions and huddling together for warmth and safety against the wars and plagues and disasters.  One would think it might at least be a possibility, especially since these folks, well, you know, run an entire organization trying to convince every human everywhere that's exactly what's coming.   But nah, they're probably like me, who checks his 401k weekly and plans for retirement.

You are not persuasive.  "Trust me bro" just doesn't have that much persuasive power with me.

Do you know what generally happens to investments in stocks and bonds, not to mention the value of currency, when tribulations of the magnitude suggested by the Book of Revelation and other dooms-day prophecies actually do occur? If not, let me spell it out for you - they typically become worthless. If Armageddon occurs, your investment in Apple stock won't save you, or the Church.

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I wonder if anyone ever accused Noah of hoarding, while they were off a'mockin' and a'scornin' and saying they knew he was a crazy and deluded person.  

Well, since there is no evidence supporting the story of Noah or a global flood, I'm pretty sure your reference to myth isn't very helpful. Regardless, for the sake of argument, I'll just point out that Noah's 'investment' was into a tangible asset that had a useful purpose in the event of a flood. Shares of Tesla, not so much.

Edited by ttribe
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5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This seems to imply that you believe the second coming of Christ is quite far into the future, since it will take time to go from a "tiny footprint now" to "tens of thousands of more temples" etc. Is this correct? I ask because I've also read posters here say that the prophecies are being fulfilled and the second coming is going to happen shortly.

I know you (your church) believes in the millennial reign of Christ, so I suppose the second coming could happen shortly and during that reign tens of thousands of temples could be built, but that seems to presuppose that the financial world will look similar after the second coming as it does now. Maybe it's my own biases, but I have a hard time reconciling the stock market, where the LDS billions are held, with a millennial reign of Christ. Are people going to be investing/gambling on the market while Christ rules the world? Are there going to be bull and bear markets? Will companies go bankrupt while others flourish? Heck, are we going to have regular jobs and pensions and retirements? It kinda reminds me of that one time Ahab (under his actual name Ahab) said he believed that in the celestial kingdom we will still be doing our laundry.

I guess if that's the case your church will make a ton of money, because an omniscient Christ will have the best insider information for trades. Or will the SEC regulators ban him from acting on his omniscience?

A general question for all: do you believe the investment people for your church pray for and receive revelation on when to buy and sell stock? Is the wealth of your church a piece of evidence that your church is run by Christ?

My personal opinion, no one except God / Christ has the permission to speak on what the fund is for. Everything is like claiming the Word Of Wisdom is tanic acid and/or caffeine.

For those that follow the Bible, accumulation of wealth for the Kingdom, in my opinion is supported by Christ.

He spoke of 3 servants that were each given a sum of money, two doubled what they were given, and were praised. The third  buried it until the Master returned.

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39 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Picking on typos is hardly typical of good faith discussion.

Meh.  Others' mileage may vary, and different strokes for different folks, perhaps, but, as for me, I think CV75 has been around here long enough, and I value his participation enough, that I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and to take such things in stride and in the spirit in which they are intended.

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57 minutes ago, provoman said:

My personal opinion, no one except God / Christ has the permission to speak on what the fund is for. Everything is like claiming the Word Of Wisdom is tanic acid and/or caffeine.

For those that follow the Bible, accumulation of wealth for the Kingdom, in my opinion is supported by Christ.

He spoke of 3 servants that were each given a sum of money, two doubled what they were given, and were praised. The third  buried it until the Master returned.

Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn share your opinion.

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I for the first time appreciate Analytic's commentary on enterprise risk management and would continue to do so were he not so prone to making judgment calls on the motivations of the Brethren. For those disaffected from the church, the conclusion appears to be "Wow, the Brethren are thrilled at the prospect of simply saving up even more and more despite the fact that the world's population could benefit from this wealth" and the believer concludes "Wow, what on earth will be going on as we approximate the 2nd Coming that would require this wealth? We continue to pray for the Brethren to seek out direction from the Savior". These two positions are irreconcilable absent a clear certainty of what the future holds.   

Edited by Vanguard
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1 hour ago, provoman said:

He spoke of 3 servants that were each given a sum of money, two doubled what they were given, and were praised. The third  buried it until the Master returned.

I have never heard the Parable of the Talents interpreted by any church, let alone the LDS Church, as an instruction to pursue the accumulation of wealth. 

Let me suggest a possible alternative interpretation: 

Three servants were each given something of value, two doubled what they were given, and were praised.  The third buried it until the Master returned.  If the Master is Jesus, then the "something of value" may well be "truth", as apparently Jesus considered truths to be of great value, and spent quite a bit of time and energy teaching truths. 

I think the Parable of the Talents is an instruction to seek that which is of great value - truth - rather than an instruction to accumulate earthly wealth.  And the fearful servant who was afraid of displeasing his Master by taking the truths he had been given out into the marketplace of ideas and being open to adding even more truths to them... well. 

But I could be wrong. 

Personally I have no problem with a church accumulating wealth "sufficient for their needs", and concede that what constitutes "sufficient for their needs" is debatable.  Money is a power to do good, and imo should be used for that purpose, and honest and sincere people can differ on how best to go about doing so. 

 

Edited by manol
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25 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Preparing for the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will, I am sure, require plenty of resources.

Well, that's all well and good, but preparing how? At what point does the preparation, in the form of sitting on so much wealth, get surpassed by the immediate need to alleviate the suffering of individuals?

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Error

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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20 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, that's all well and good, but preparing how? At what point does the preparation, in the form of sitting on so much wealth, get surpassed by the immediate need to alleviate the suffering of individuals?

Again, that's a great question that I think exceeds yours and my ability to understand nor do I believe the Brethren know clearly but that they believe this is what is expected of them. Certainly you don't expect them to know that much specificity regards to the future that would include a 2nd Coming? Otherwise, I hope they continue seeking inspiration on such matters as we can all agree that kind of money could certainly be put to great use now.

Edited by Vanguard
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44 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Preparing for the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will, I am sure, require plenty of resources.

It is likely that the New Jerusalem will require extensive infrastructure expenditures which may have to be financed in part by the currency of the foreigners, i.e. those not living in the New Jerusalem. We probably ought to have a few trillion in reserves! 

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1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

Again, that's a great question that I think exceeds yours and my ability to understand nor do I believe the Brethren know clearly but that they believe this is what is expected of them. Certainly you don't expect them to know that much specificity regards to the future that would include a 2nd Coming? Otherwise, I hope they continue seeking inspiration on such matters as we all can agree that kind of money could certainly be put to great use now.

As for me, I don't believe they know the future or have any way of knowing the future. But, that is more of an argument over whether prophets have any connection to some divine source of information, or are just guessing like the rest of us.

As I've alluded to before - The analysis in this thread is sound and the conclusions reasonable based on the verifiable facts and the basis of the assumptions. If you want to argue in favor of faith, that's fine, but just know it has no basis in empirical evidence.

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2 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

It is likely that the New Jerusalem will require extensive infrastructure expenditures which may have to be financed in part by the currency of the foreigners, i.e. those not living in the New Jerusalem. We probably ought to have a few trillion in reserves! 

And when, exactly, is this New Jerusalem scheduled to be built? Before or after the calamaties allegedly foretold by sacred texts?

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3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

As for me, I don't believe they know the future or have any way of knowing the future. But, that is more of an argument over whether prophets have any connection to some divine source of information, or are just guessing like the rest of us.

As I've alluded to before - The analysis in this thread is sound and the conclusions reasonable based on the verifiable facts and the basis of the assumptions. If you want to argue in favor of faith, that's fine, but just know it has no basis in empirical evidence.

Yes, I know you don't believe it - that's why I spelled out the two differing camps. Based on the fact that you do not accept the teachings of the LDS faith (and perhaps still would question the Brethren's motives even if you were a believer), the fact that you do not know what the future may bring severely handicaps your conclusions.  Speculation based on good thinking on Analytic's part and absent any belief about the 2nd Coming? Sure. It's good food for thought

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23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, that's all well and good, but preparing how? At what point does the preparation, in the form of sitting on so much wealth, get surpassed by the immediate need to alleviate the suffering of individuals?

The alleviation of suffering of individuals is an individual matter. The Church membership does that extensively on an individual level. They do it because they are motivated by the truths that they have learned as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When there is a so-called immediate need, as you put it, the institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of the first organizations to jump into action. Ask anybody in Haiti, or any other country or State hit by a natural disaster. One of the brothers in my ward recently commented in priesthood meeting of an experience he had with the coordinators of a relief effort that the two organizations that are provided the most help were the Mormons and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

if you guys could put a dollar value on the value of the time the members give serving others, what would the number be? Does the Church get credit for inspiring such giving?

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7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And when, exactly, is this New Jerusalem scheduled to be built? Before or after the calamaties allegedly foretold by sacred texts?

I would refer you to Alma and his response to Zeezrom when  Zeezrom demanded to know things that he hadn’t put the time or effort in to discovering.

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27 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, that's all well and good, but preparing how? At what point does the preparation, in the form of sitting on so much wealth, get surpassed by the immediate need to alleviate the suffering of individuals?

I reject your characterization that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preparing for the Second Coming amounts to "sitting on [its] wealth."  It's building temples; and chapels; and other facilities; and operating them; and so on. 

And the Church of Jesus Christ can "walk and chew gum at the same time" by alleviating temporal suffering, while, at the same time, seeing to the spiritual needs of its members and of others through attending to other prongs of its mission, such as perfecting the Saints, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and redeeming the dead. 

Again, I refer you to the passage I quoted earlier from King Benjamin's address in Mosiah 4: "See that all these things are done in wisdom and order."

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14 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

One of the brothers in my ward recently commented in priesthood meeting of an experience he had with the coordinators of a relief effort that the two organizations that provided the most help were the Mormons and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ha!  That's great!!

Edited by manol
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