Mama Says about Dinosaurs

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading I denied…

So you're saying that leaves only you to blame cause mama tried?

[Pyreaux]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

When Mama says she believes, does she mean a) she considers it to be a valuable working model subject to adjustment; b) she knows it is indisputable gospel truth; or c) an expression of not needing to know all the things God knows and as good an explanation as any?

I'm not positive, I think it's not a thought-out theory, just a simple bridge between two ideas; that the young earth interpretation of the Bible timeline is accurate and that the dating of ancient rock and fossils is also accurate. The method is still presumed miraculous and thus possibly seamless. 

I had assumed it was her own idea, but seeing it referenced in Fairwiki makes me think it is, or was, more widespread until young earth theories became unpopular. Here is BYU putting it down in 2020, The planet is made from debris but the bones seem to be from the same planet.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-21-no-3-2020/was-earth-formed-debris-other-planets

Edited January 11, 2023 by Pyreaux

[gav]

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Would it not depend on how long it was after they had all disappeared before replaced by similar looking life on Yom 5 in Genesis.

How closely have you analysed the structure of each Yom. The Yom's are a literary framing device acting as an opening and closing parenthesis. They do far more important work structurally than they do stipulating time. In the time designation sphere of their work they build out the week of 7 days but they do much, much more work outside of that. To only think the creation took 7 x 24 hour periods is to skim the surface and miss the deeper plot entirely.

Edited January 11, 2023 by gav

[The Nehor]

The “comes from another world” explanation only makes sense if you see this planet as hosting a succession of worlds throughout history. Hence we talk about “the end of the world” but the planet does not end.

[LoudmouthMormon]

17 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Is Mama right or is Mama wrong?

I don't know.  But she's welcome to sit with us at church, our kids can play with their kids, I'd be happy to see her at the temple.  And I hope someday to learn all the specifics about human and world and universe history and mechanics, on the other side of the veil, to see how close the various human theories got.

I mean, I know such "it ain't pertinent to my salvation so I don't care" arguments aren't satisfying to people who want to vigorously discuss the various theories, but you asked, so there's my answer. 

 

Fun related story:
We homeschooled, and took our LDS kids to a Christian based homeschool co-op run out of our local Mega-church.  100 mommies and me showed up 2-4 days a week to pool our resources and educate our kiddos.  Music/art/writing/math/history were all fine.  But we learned to just not take the archeology or world geology classes.  Because the people taught very, shall we say, set opinions uninformed by much of the available science and data.

It was field trip to the nature park day, and me, the mommies, and all the kiddos were off learning about erosion and weather and chipmunks and whatnot.  The tour guide pointed out that particular riverbed had an awful lot of rocks made out of petrified trees, and the kiddos were happily looking for them.  A kid asked his mom what 'petrified' meant, and the mom was looking guilty and scared and trying to stumble through an answer, and looked at me imploringly.  I said something to the tune of "from what they tell me, a long time ago a tree fell, and over the years it got covered up by dirt and sand, and over even more years, water eroded away the tree, and the minerals in the water stayed behind and turned into rock.  Sort of like stalagmites and stalactites in caves."  The kid got bored halfway through my explanation and was back in the river, the mommy's face was doing weird things as she thanked me for the explanation.  Just trying to interpret what her facial expressions and body language was saying: She was grateful I was explaining things, terrified that we were all going to hell for talking about it, fearful for her child's soul, and relieved the kid had lost interest.

A few hours later at the end of the day as everyone was walking back up the river to our cars, I overheard her directing her kids' attention to a submerged log, saying "Look kids!  The tree is fossilizing!"

 

[gav]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

"Look kids!  The tree is fossilizing!"

 

Ouch!

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The “comes from another world” explanation only makes sense if you see this planet as hosting a succession of worlds throughout history. Hence we talk about “the end of the world” but the planet does not end.

And maybe like the end, the beginning involved some type of transfiguration in the "twinkling of eye". So, the old creatures died but instantly became new reborn creatures.

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, gav said:

How closely have you analysed the structure of each Yom. The Yom's are a literary framing device acting as an opening and closing parenthesis. They do far more important work structurally than they do stipulating time. In the time designation sphere of their work they build out the week of 7 days but they do much, much more work outside of that. To only think the creation took 7 x 24 hour periods is to skim the surface and miss the deeper plot entirely.

Which is why I say "Yom" and resist saying "Day". I'm pro team Million-Year-Yom, but I'm just supportive of others too.

[JAHS]

Dinosaurs obviously lived and died  long before Adam and Eve came into the picture. One idea is that Adam and Eve were the first beings that were composed of both a spirit and body, whereas any creatures before them did not have spirits. When they say there was no death before the fall it is possible it means there was no separation of body and spirit type of death, which is what Adam and Eve brought into the world with the Fall, and before that it was a simple biochemical type of death where no spirit was involved. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

And maybe like the end, the beginning involved some type of transfiguration in the "twinkling of eye". So, the old creatures died but instantly became new reborn creatures.

Why would anyone bother to mass kill off and then immediately recreate the exact same creatures.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Why would anyone bother to mass kill off and then immediately recreate the exact same creatures.

They only look the same, that's what will happen during a worldwide transfiguration (instant death and revival) in the Millennium. The animals might look exactly the same as they did but they with be peaceful vegans. Lions will lay with lambs. Children will play with snakes. A New Earth indeed.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

They only look the same, that's what will happen during a worldwide transfiguration (instant death and revival) in the Millennium. The animals might look exactly the same as they did but they with be peaceful vegans. Lions will lay with lambs. Children will play with snakes. A New Earth indeed.

So how do I know I won’t die and be replaced by someone else that just looks like me?

Edited January 12, 2023 by The Nehor

[Pyreaux]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So how do I know I won’t die and be replaced by someone else that just looks like me?

Its already happened before. Every eight years every cell in your body has died and been replaced. You might have noticed your tastes have changed over the years, right?

[blarsen]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:21 PM, Pyreaux said:

Re-terraformed or reseeded after a mass extinction event.

There is pretty good evidence that the end of the Pleistocene was precipitated by a large bolide of some type (end of the Younger Dryas; about 11,700 yrs bp), which did constitute a mass extinction event, but about half the 'mega' fauna (> 100 lbs) survived; the really large ones did not.

There is also ongoing research on a large meteor impact event in the South Central Indian Ocean judged to have happened about 5,200 years ago (3,200 BC), which also coincides with about 3 ancient calendars starting about that time, where their texts indicate the calendars started after a great flooding event; and probably coincides to some degree with Usher's time scale, and Noah's flood.  The event created massive erosion on adjacent coast lines suggestive of a very large tsunami.  It would have also sent incredible amounts of water into the atmosphere, which would have to come down, creating flooding perhaps all over the world.

Edited January 20, 2023 by blarsen

[Nofear]

Making the earth from other planets seems ... inefficient. God just made all the fossils and oil and other things that way 6000 years ago in a manner that would be consistent in observations with a planet that is billions of years old. I suppose that very same thing could have been 10 minutes ago, but the Bible tells me otherwise so it's 6000 years not 10 minutes.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Making the earth from other planets seems ... inefficient. God just made all the fossils and oil and other things that way 6000 years ago in a manner that would be consistent in observations with a planet that is billions of years old. I suppose that very same thing could have been 10 minutes ago, but the Bible tells me otherwise so it's 6000 years not 10 minutes.

Actually it's been about 6000 years since Adam left the Garden of Eden. The earth and dinosaurs could have existed for millions of years before that.

[Nofear]

14 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Actually it's been about 6000 years since Adam left the Garden of Eden. The earth and dinosaurs could have existed for millions of years before that.

Hey now, none of that sciencey rationalization mumbo jumbo. 6000(ish) years + 6 days for the creation. God only made the earth seem older so we would have to place our sole trust in the infallible word of God as compiled by committees of fallen, sinful mortals -- interpreted in the most literal way, of course.

[The Nehor]

The solar system collapsed into existence when God first observed it. Thus the Earth was created 6,000 years ago but has a much older history.

Quantum physics solves EVERYTHING!!!!!!*

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This is, of course absurd....well, mostly absurd.

[blackstrap]

I've wondered how the universe is about 13.8 billion years old and yet 92 billion light years across. Then again there is that cog-dis called WARP speed. 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

I've wondered how the universe is about 13.8 billion years old and yet 92 billion light years across. Then again there is that cog-dis called WARP speed. 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/star-treks-warp-drive-leads-to-new-physics/

Quote

According to Albert Einstein’s epic discovery, we live in four-dimensional “spacetime.” Spacetime is not static. Like a tablecloth, it is deformed by massive objects. Everything that moves across the tablecloth (or throughspacetime) can accelerate only up to the speed limit set by light. The tablecloth itself, on the other hand, can be deformed at any speed, as the universe itself shows in some situations.

At the instant of the big bang, for example, the original spacetime structure presumably expanded for a split second and did so much faster than any ray of light could travel. Even today, the expansion continues to drive extremely distant galaxies away at speeds faster than light, which means their light can no longer reach us.

Based on his discovery, Alcubierre surmised that it would only be a small step to a warp drive. If spacetime were contracted in front of a spaceship and expanded behind it to compensate, it would be possible to travel to one’s destination at a speed faster than light. The ship would remain encapsulated in a bubble, and the crew would not sense the magnitude of the interstellar journey. In a 2017 lecture, Alcubierre compared it to being on a passenger conveyor belt at the airport: “You can imagine that the floor behind you is being created out of nothing and in front of you it is being destroyed, so you move along.”…

But formulating this idea in the language of general relativity immediately gives rise to major practical problems. First, to deform spacetime so radically, you would need to cram a huge mass into a bubble bounded by a wall thinner than an atomic nucleus. Then you would need two forms of matter to maintain the bubble. The gravity of ordinary mass would cause the space at the front of the bubble to contract, moving the whole structure forward. But at the same time, the space at the back of the bubble would need to expand like rising bread dough. To make that expansion happen, according to Alcubierre, you would need some form of negative energy radiating a kind of antigravity….

Some of these papers have shown how to reduce the bubble’s mass requirements so that the total mass needed to deform spacetime would be less than that of our sun. But no one was able to get around the problem of negative energy—until Lentz took it up during the lockdown in Göttingen. In his enforced isolation, Lentz found a way to construct a warp bubble using only positive energy. In so doing, he may have overcome the greatest objection to warp drives.

What made it possible was a special feature of the geometry of spacetime that Lentz discovered buried in the general theory of relativity—more precisely, in Einstein’s field equations. These equations can calculate how a particular distribution of matter and energy deforms spacetime. Researchers can also use them, as Alcubierre did, to determine the mass and energy needed to produce a specific curvature of space.

 

Covid leads to warp drives….

Edited January 21, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/star-treks-warp-drive-leads-to-new-physics/

Covid leads to warp drives….

Now we just need the power for such a drive. The only realistic method to power it would be matter and antimatter which means discovering how to store antimatter.

[InCognitus]

I was always taught (by the best information made available to me in the 1960's) that One Million Years B.C. there was this:

And then there was this:

And then everything died and either became focalized, or it was buried and covered by water, deeper and deeper, preparing the way for the descendants of Adam and Eve to do this:

All part of God's plan.

Edited January 21, 2023 by InCognitus

[Nofear]

16 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I've wondered how the universe is about 13.8 billion years old and yet 92 billion light years across.

Attached is an image I scripted for fun a few years ago (so some of the parameters are not quite the current ones, but close).
The 13.8 billion years is our past light cone (that which can affect us). The 92 billion years is the particle horizon (how far particles can go having started at the same spot as we are).

See also.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2018/02/23/if-the-universe-is-13-8-billion-years-old-how-can-we-see-46-billion-light-years-away/?sh=520b35c21303

Though if you really want a mind bending explanation, it is how we can see things that are receding away from us faster than the speed of light (objects outside the Hubble Sphere but inside our light cone).

[Dario_M]

Yeah... i don't know what to believe about the beginning of the earth. If a member of the church would ask me or i believe in Adam and Eve and that the world has been made in 7 days i would say: "YES!!! I DO I DO." But deep in my heart i would think "🎭" and ask myself how a can lie like that to my other church members. And i would feel guilty offcourse. 

For the rest i do believe in Jesus, God, hell, and heaven. So i am a honest believer though. But do i believe in the fact that the world have been made in 7 days? No unfortunatly i find that hard to believe. But like i said i would lie about that if a member would ask me this question. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

Dario, There is no need to lie to a member so you don’t offend them or for any other reason unless you just want to avoid an argument and they believe in a young earth.  And in that case you could just say you haven’t made up your mind yet.
 

You don’t need to pretend to believe the seven days of creation are anything except symbolic descriptions of creation as it is not doctrine that the earth was created in 7 days even if some members believe that. The easiest response is to point out the word translated as “days” can be translated as an undetermined period of time, so each day could be a thousand years as some believe or even millions or billions of years. 
 

Joseph Smith himself apparently thought the world was quite old. I will try and find the exact quote and the reason he calculated it that way. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Calm