The Purifying Power of Gethsemane by Elder McConkie - how/why did the pains of Gethsemane recur?

[nuclearfuels]

With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities.

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-purifying-power-of-gethsemane?lang=eng 

Just learned about this General Conference address yesterday in a Seminary teacher training. 

Never heard /read it before. 

how/why did the pains of Gethsemane recur?

Mostly the why is what I'm seeking.

Thanks in advance

[Nevo]

55 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

how/why did the pains of Gethsemane recur?

I have no special insight into this but can only offer what others have suggested.

I suspect Elder McConkie was influenced by Elder Talmage's remarks in Jesus the Christ: 

Quote

At the ninth hour, or about three in the afternoon, a loud voice, surpassing the most anguished cry of physical suffering issued from the central cross, rending the dreadful darkness. It was the voice of the Christ: “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” What mind of man can fathom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death.

Elder Talmage seems to link his thought about the agony of Gethsemane recurring with Jesus' cry of dereliction.

Following Elder Talmage, the Givenses and Elder Holland have offered the following reflections:

Quote

To have endless empathy, [Christ] would have to know a terror and abandonment and hopelessness beyond human conceiving, such that no mortal tongue could say, you don't know what I have known, you haven't been where I have been. Exactly how this would be possible, who can say, but that is what He would have to experience.

So at the close of His life, He hung on the cross to die, with no angels to sing Him home, no light shining at the far end of the tunnel. "I have trodden the wine press alone." Who can imagine the oblivion into which He peered, the suffocating gloom, the infinite void? He who was present on Creation's morn, the Light of the World, now faced a darkness beyond any night. And then, at the acme of His agony, He was sundered from the only solace in His pain-wracked life, the only constant comfort in His suffering—His Father's presence. The shock and horror of that final, insupportable abandonment is heard in His cry of despair, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

(Terryl and Fiona Givens, The God Who Weeps, pp. 28–29)

Quote

Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”?

With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone.

(Jeffrey R. Holland, "None Were with Him," April 2009 Conference)

 

Edited January 8 by Nevo

[CV75]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities.

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-purifying-power-of-gethsemane?lang=eng 

Just learned about this General Conference address yesterday in a Seminary teacher training. 

Never heard /read it before. 

how/why did the pains of Gethsemane recur?

Mostly the why is what I'm seeking.

Thanks in advance

One of the definitions of "recur" is: to come back to one's mind, as with a thought, image, or memory. So maybe Elder McConkie meant that. The "how" would be a mental state. The "why" might be help Him to keep the moment in perspective.

[Pyreaux]

McConkie was originally a theologian and is a source for more than a few folk doctrines. I assume that when Jesus cried out about being forsaken was a traumatic moment. I think the idea is that the full force of the events thus far had so far been numbed, or perceived under a different context, by his connection to the Father. The Father withdrew, it may have effectively "reoccurred" mentally, and he cried out. Or the feeling rushed into his being, like the feeling returns after stubbing a toe when your leg fell asleep. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities.

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-purifying-power-of-gethsemane?lang=eng 

Just learned about this General Conference address yesterday in a Seminary teacher training. 

Never heard /read it before. 

how/why did the pains of Gethsemane recur?

Mostly the why is what I'm seeking.

Thanks in advance

In a way, a recurrence is the second witness "touching one thing" to establish the truth of the first.

Another thought comes from Abraham 3:18-19. The sins and suffering of all mankind must not only be paid in full and evened-out but brought up to the highest level where Christ is. To descend below all things and ascend above all things requires a double portion of wherewithal and content.

And then from Luke 6:

37 ^aJudge not, and ye shall not be judged: ^bcondemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be ^cforgiven:

38 ^aGive, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same ^bmeasure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

This speaks two principles to me: 1) We give, but the Lord's grace enables us to give greater, and so His ability is greater than all of ours combined. 2) The Lord's atonement allows all His children to receive back what they have given -- for better or worse -- without His having to diminish anything of Himself. The recurring or double portion permits this and renders His sacrifice and judgement infinite and eternal.

ETA: major phrase was deleted which I fixed.

Edited January 9 by CV75

[Matthew Andreasen]

Personally, things like this are interesting, and it's nice to know the different opinions out there, but it's not something I would worry about too much.  Some "unofficial" ideas speak to me and some do not, but I try to indicate that they are opinions, ideas, or possibilities if I ever share them with others.  Elder McConkie's idea is certainly possible.  It wouldn't surprise me to find that Jesus suffered more on the cross than the normal amount of pain caused by crucifixion, but ultimately, it doesn't matter.  What matters is that He fulfilled the Father's will, completed the atonement, and opened the way for us if we choose to follow Him.

[Rain]

When I was looking at this some 20 years ago I remember looking in the dictionary and finding that recur also means to continue.  That made a lot of sense to me.  However, I only found it in one place and in later years have no longer seen that so either my source/dictionary was not a good one or it has lost that meaning since McConkie used it.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

McConkie was originally a theologian and is a source for more than a few folk doctrines. I assume that when Jesus cried out about being forsaken was a traumatic moment. I think the idea is that the full force of the events thus far had so far been numbed, or perceived under a different context, by his connection to the Father. The Father withdrew, it may have effectively "reoccurred" mentally, and he cried out. Or the feeling rushed into his being, like the feeling returns after stubbing a toe when your leg fell asleep. 

Yes, He was strengthened by an angel in the garden (Luke 22:43) but apparently not helped while the cross. He even refused the pain-numbing drink on the cross (Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23). At the very end He accepted vinegar for His thirst (John 19:28-30) to fulfil the prophesy of Psalm 69:12.