How Familiar are You with the Mexican "Third Convention" Episode in the Mid-1930s?

[Navidad]

Hi all! I am very interested to try and get a grasp on how widely known those series of conflicts here in Mexico that became known as the Third Convention are known in the church today? Don't cheat and look it up! 😃 At least not until you can let us know how aware of it, how much you know about it, the outcomes of it, the principal players, etc. I am writing on Mexican religious conflicts of the 1930s and am wondering how much the average pew member (or faithful non-member), 🙃 😄 or non-member on this forum knows about it and understands the dynamics of it. No cheating! Do you think knowledge of it is widespread in the church today? Thanks so much for your help with this.

[blackstrap]

I think you would be lucky to find 1 % that knew anything about it. I've been in the church for over 60 years and only know a bit about the Mexican colonies. I do recall a shoot up with members of the colonies and a  drug cartel fairly recently. 

[Duncan]

I read a few things about it but am hardly an expert

[Calm]

I don’t remember hearing anything taught in church about the colonies specifically except why they were established. (I didn’t take the Church History courses at BYU.) Same for both Canadian colonies as Mexican.  A bit more was shared when Romney was running and then occasional mentions in the news.  I have watched two news documentaries on recent events about cartel stuff and murders, but they shared very little about history.

Picked up a bit online conversations, but you have been the source of the majority of my knowledge now.

I am by nature not that interested in history (so depressing so often, I can’t stop thinking about the real people who suffered through all the wars and political maneuverings, etc.) and only pick it up because of fascination with cultures and religions, so most of my church history knowledge comes from conversations online and then researching to see if comments are accurate, for missing details, etc.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

That was when Ezra Taft Benson was running for election as President of Mexico right?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi all! I am very interested to try and get a grasp on how widely known those series of conflicts here in Mexico that became known as the Third Convention are known in the church today? Don't cheat and look it up! 😃 At least not until you can let us know how aware of it, how much you know about it, the outcomes of it, the principal players, etc. I am writing on Mexican religious conflicts of the 1930s and am wondering how much the average pew member (or faithful non-member), 🙃 😄 or non-member on this forum knows about it and understands the dynamics of it. No cheating! Do you think knowledge of it is widespread in the church today? Thanks so much for your help with this.

I didn't look it up, but didn't you ask this once before and point out how Saints Volume [X] was historically inaccurate concerning a martyrdom-type event in it?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

I read a few things about it but am hardly an expert

I am an expert. Questions?

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi all! I am very interested to try and get a grasp on how widely known those series of conflicts here in Mexico that became known as the Third Convention are known in the church today? Don't cheat and look it up! 😃 At least not until you can let us know how aware of it, how much you know about it, the outcomes of it, the principal players, etc. I am writing on Mexican religious conflicts of the 1930s and am wondering how much the average pew member (or faithful non-member), 🙃 😄 or non-member on this forum knows about it and understands the dynamics of it. No cheating! Do you think knowledge of it is widespread in the church today? Thanks so much for your help with this.

My understanding was that the doctrine arose that the Lamanite brethren there felt that they would be the presiding priesthood authority due to race and resisted rule from Salt Lake.  Margaurito Bautista was the name of one of the primary ringleaders.

He later joined the fundamentalists and died shortly before they could kick him out too because of the doctrine.  His colony in Mexico still follows fundamentalist leadership and some still hang on for their "birthright" doctrine too.

That's all I remember reading.  Sure there's much more to it than that.  Same basic issue as with most groups - "Church is out of order, we're the actual righteous group".  Never changes.  Anything else I'd need to research.

Edited January 2, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I didn't look it up, but didn't you ask this once before and point out how Saints Volume [X] was historically inaccurate concerning a martyrdom-type event in it?

Hi my friend. No, my comments about the martyr event was about a much earlier time - directly during the revolution around 1914-1917 during the time of Carranza. That was twenty years before the events of my current question. Take care.

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi my friend. No, my comments about the martyr event was about a much earlier time - directly during the revolution around 1914-1917 during the time of Carranza. That was twenty years before the events of my current question. Take care.

I guess I'm just ahead of my time...  I'm only familiar with the term and its maybe having something to do with a group deciding and petitioning to have their own home-grown leadership (which I'm probably wrong about too), which I believe I came across on this Board (unless it too is in Saints).

[smac97]

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi all! I am very interested to try and get a grasp on how widely known those series of conflicts here in Mexico that became known as the Third Convention are known in the church today?

I believe my dad knows a fair amount about this.  He has, over the years, presented lectures on the history of the Church colonies in Mexico during Education Week at BYU, so this was somewhat in his wheelhouse.  He and I have discussed it a number of times.  

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

Don't cheat and look it up! 😃 At least not until you can let us know how aware of it, how much you know about it, the outcomes of it, the principal players, etc.

I was familiar with the general contours, though I could not recall the names of the principals.

I think the Third Convention helps show that the Restored Gospel can be cross-pollinated with cultures around the world, but that it takes some real effort to achieve the sort of syncretism that is often necessary to accommodate both the structures and strictures of the Gospel within a larger cultural environment.   

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am writing on Mexican religious conflicts of the 1930s and am wondering how much the average pew member (or faithful non-member), 🙃 😄 or non-member on this forum knows about it and understands the dynamics of it. No cheating! Do you think knowledge of it is widespread in the church today? Thanks so much for your help with this.

As a worldwide Church, it can be a challenge to be familiar with its development and presence all over.  Most of us have a generalized understanding of the Church's early history, including the trek west to Utah, the settlement of the Utah territory and its sister areas (Idaho, Nevada, Arizona).  From there, however, things get pretty diversified.

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in Utah County because I (mostly) grew up here, live here now, and have ancestry on both sides who settled here (American Fork, Provo, Springville).

I am familiar with the history of the Church in the UK, primarily Scotland, because I have many ancestors from there.  Last year I and my wife traveled to Scotland to, in part, visit ancestral sites associated with my great-great grandfather, Alexander F. Macdonald, and his family.  

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in Taiwan because I served a mission there, and because one of the first four missionaries who went there in the 1950s was in my home ward.

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in the Mexico Colonies because my dad's parents were both from there.  I have visited there twice, and would like to do so again.

I am familiar somewhat with many aspects of the history of the Church in certain parts of Polynesia.  I was born in Hawaii and my family lived there for 10 years, and the history of the Church there is quite interesting and influential and ongoing.  My sister served her mission in Vanuatu, and currently lives there with her husband and three children, so I have learned some things from her. 

My brother lived in Samoa for 17 years, is married to a Samoan, currently has a son on a Samoan-speaking mission in New Zealand, and is currently serving as a bishop of a Polynesian (mostly Samoan) ward in Utah County.  Due to these connections (and, I think, to my parents' influence), he has also worked to compile histories of the Church in Samoa:

Rich LDS History in American Samoa Shared (from 2012):

Quote

The Pacific Area Church History Advisor for the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) Brett Macdonald has collected, preserved and shared the history of the LDS Church in the Pacific by showcasing displays about the history of the church in the Pacific, which includes Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Samoa and Tonga. Last Saturday he shared his work on display for viewing at the LDS Church in Aua.

“The Mormons have a very rich history in the United States. But what a lot of people do not realize is that they have a very extensive, rich history here in American Samoa, too, when the first Mormons came as Hawaiian missionaries in 1863,” said Macdonald.

He explained that he is married to a Samoan and when his children were born he wanted to be able to do something to help contribute to their understanding of who they are. That is when he started to collect stories and history and began to do research in Hawaii, the mainland, New Zealand and Samoa.

6,000 Samoans Connect with their Past (from 2013)

Past and Present Stories Promote Sense of LDS Community (from 2015)

I have enjoyed learning about the lives of the Saints in these various areas.  

Conversely, I have a fairly limited understanding of and familiarity with the history of the Church in various other places.  Canada?  Nope.  South America?  Not much (my dad served a mission in Argentina and my brother served in Brasil, but that's about it).  Africa?  A little (my parents served a mission in Zimbabwe, and I have a friend from South Africa).  Australia?  Nope.  The Philippines?  Not really.  Continental Europe?  Not a lot.  Japan and Korea?  Nope.

Anyway, getting back to the Third Convention, the Church has published some information about it, including in Volume 3 of Saints, so I imagine the general membership of the Church are more familiar with it now than in years past:

• Church History Topics: Third Convention
• Saints (Volume 3), Chapter 24: The Aim of the Church
• Saints (Volume 3), Chapter 31: The Right Track
• Global Histories > Mexico > A Division in the Church

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 2, 2023 by smac97

[smac97]

23 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I think you would be lucky to find 1 % that knew anything about it. I've been in the church for over 60 years and only know a bit about the Mexican colonies. I do recall a shoot up with members of the colonies and a  drug cartel fairly recently. 

I am aware of the LeBarón and Langford families massacre, but that A) did not involve members of the Church (the victims belonged to a polygamist sect), and B) was in 2019.  Are you referring to this tragedy or something else?

Thanks,

-Smac

[blackstrap]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Are you referring to this tragedy or something else?

Yes, this one. I probably conflated members of the colonies with fundi groups. 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am aware of the LeBarón and Langford families massacre, but that A) did not involve members of the Church (the victims belonged to a polygamist sect), and B) was in 2019.  Are you referring to this tragedy or something else?

Thanks,

-Smac

I will differ with you just a bit on this one. While the folks directly involved in the massacre were not members of the LDS Church, the impact of it was felt across the entire region, especially for members of the LDS Church. There are any number of familial, friendship, and business ties between the involved folks and LDS folks - especially the LDS folks in Dublan. A LDS local leader gave the dedicatory prayer at the gravesite of one of the victims and others attended. Also, I cannot stress enough how little the average person here differentiates between the LDS folk and the Mormons of the several fundamentalist branches in northern Mexico. There are also many who identify as Mormon, but who have no particular involvement in any of the groups. And the press? Even less (Hey! I'm a poet!). As we have discussed before, your great grandfather had a huge impact on the founding of the colonies and is still widely discussed in relationship to the Temple Hill vision. Best wishes.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think the Third Convention helps show that the Restored Gospel can be cross-pollinated with cultures around the world, but that it takes some real effort to achieve the sort of syncretism that is often necessary to accommodate both the structures and strictures of the Gospel within a larger cultural environment. 

I sure agree with you on this one. One of the greatest challenges to missiological work of any group is to successfully navigate the surrounding culture. As a member of the board of directors of one of the largest Evangelical missions, I had to deal with that all the time. I loved that part of our discussions. It holds true for all cross-cultural interactions of any sort. Best wishes to you!

Oh, and it is also fascinating to read secular historical interpretations (especially Mexican) of the Third Convention and then read the interpretation from the LDS church. I love the differences because it also involves bridging differing cultures as well.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I will differ with you just a bit on this one. While the folks directly involved in the massacre were not members of the LDS Church, the impact of it was felt across the entire region, especially for members of the LDS Church.  There are any number of familial, friendship, and business ties between the involved folks and LDS folks - especially the LDS folks in Dublan. A LDS local leader gave the dedicatory prayer at the gravesite of one of the victims and others attended.

I don't doubt the impact.  I was just clarifying the actual involvement.  Members of the Church were not the victims.  That's all.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Also, I cannot stress enough how little the average person here differentiates between the LDS folk and the Mormons of the several fundamentalist branches in northern Mexico.

As a local matter, that is quite understandable.  As a missionary in Taiwan, I recall many conversations with Buddhists who view all branches of Christianity (Roman Catholicism, all flavors of Protestantism, the Latter-day Saints, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) as being indistinguishable from each other.  Things differ a bit in the States, though.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

There are also many who identify as Mormon, but who have no particular involvement in any of the groups.

Interesting.  "Mormon" as an ethnicity, I suppose.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

And the press? Even less (Hey! I'm a poet!).

Yes, they often A) do a poor job of differentiating, and B) actually know better.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

As we have discussed before, your great grandfather had a huge impact on the founding of the colonies and is still widely discussed in relationship to the Temple Hill vision. Best wishes.

Same here.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I sure agree with you on this one. One of the greatest challenges to missiological work of any group is to successfully navigate the surrounding culture.

Yep.  Some (most, really) parts of the larger culture can and ought to be retained and maintained and embraced, while some other (and fewer) facets must be modified or jettisoned.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

As a member of the board of directors of one of the largest Evangelical missions, I had to deal with that all the time. I loved that part of our discussions. It holds true for all cross-cultural interactions of any sort. Best wishes to you!

Same here, brother!

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Oh, and it is also fascinating to read secular historical interpretations (especially Mexican) of the Third Convention and then read the interpretation from the LDS church. I love the differences because it also involves bridging differing cultures as well.

Do you detect any substantive inaccuracies in the Church's published treatments of the Third Convention?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I believe my dad knows a fair amount about this.  He has, over the years, presented lectures on the history of the Church colonies in Mexico during Education Week at BYU, so this was somewhat in his wheelhouse.  He and I have discussed it a number of times.  

I was familiar with the general contours, though I could not recall the names of the principals.

I think the Third Convention helps show that the Restored Gospel can be cross-pollinated with cultures around the world, but that it takes some real effort to achieve the sort of syncretism that is often necessary to accommodate both the structures and strictures of the Gospel within a larger cultural environment.   

As a worldwide Church, it can be a challenge to be familiar with its development and presence all over.  Most of us have a generalized understanding of the Church's early history, including the trek west to Utah, the settlement of the Utah territory and its sister areas (Idaho, Nevada, Arizona).  From there, however, things get pretty diversified.

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in Utah County because I (mostly) grew up here, live here now, and have ancestry on both sides who settled here (American Fork, Provo, Springville).

I am familiar with the history of the Church in the UK, primarily Scotland, because I have many ancestors from there.  Last year I and my wife traveled to Scotland to, in part, visit ancestral sites associated with my great-great grandfather, Alexander F. Macdonald, and his family.  

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in Taiwan because I served a mission there, and because one of the first four missionaries who went there in the 1950s was in my home ward.

I am fairly familiar with the history of the Church in the Mexico Colonies because my dad's parents were both from there.  I have visited there twice, and would like to do so again.

I am familiar somewhat with many aspects of the history of the Church in certain parts of Polynesia.  I was born in Hawaii and my family lived there for 10 years, and the history of the Church there is quite interesting and influential and ongoing.  My sister served her mission in Vanuatu, and currently lives there with her husband and three children, so I have learned some things from her. 

My brother lived in Samoa for 17 years, is married to a Samoan, currently has a son on a Samoan-speaking mission in New Zealand, and is currently serving as a bishop of a Polynesian (mostly Samoan) ward in Utah County.  Due to these connections (and, I think, to my parents' influence), he has also worked to compile histories of the Church in Samoa:

Rich LDS History in American Samoa Shared (from 2012):

6,000 Samoans Connect with their Past (from 2013)

Past and Present Stories Promote Sense of LDS Community (from 2015)

I have enjoyed learning about the lives of the Saints in these various areas.  

Conversely, I have a fairly limited understanding of and familiarity with the history of the Church in various other places.  Canada?  Nope.  South America?  Not much (my dad served a mission in Argentina and my brother served in Brasil, but that's about it).  Africa?  A little (my parents served a mission in Zimbabwe, and I have a friend from South Africa).  Australia?  Nope.  The Philippines?  Not really.  Continental Europe?  Not a lot.  Japan and Korea?  Nope.

Anyway, getting back to the Third Convention, the Church has published some information about it, including in Volume 3 of Saints, so I imagine the general membership of the Church are more familiar with it now than in years past:

• Church History Topics: Third Convention
• Saints (Volume 3), Chapter 24: The Aim of the Church
• Saints (Volume 3), Chapter 31: The Right Track
• Global Histories > Mexico > A Division in the Church

Thanks,

-Smac

There’s also a “Church History Topics” essay accessible in the Gospel Library app:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/third-convention?lang=eng

Added:  Never mind. I see you have linked to it already. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Scott Lloyd

[2BizE]

Navidad,

there were two very good Mormonism Live episode on this not long ago. I thought they was very well done and in depth.

 

 

 

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Do you detect any substantive inaccuracies in the Church's published treatments of the Third Convention?

This is a good and fair question. I am familiar with some of the Church's published treatments of the Third Convention, but not all. Therefore, I hesitate to weigh in on that. My initiation of the thread was not to cast stones on anything. I really just wanted some insight on how well this topic is known by those in the Church. I have seen some evidence of it being mentioned more here in what is known as the "Mexico for Mexicans" movement that still carries with it postrevolutionary ideas. I have been asked about it a few times in Q&A sessions after my talks.

Perhaps I can best answer your question by quoting from a wonderful book I was reading this weekend while watching all the football games. My wife constantly teases me because I am completely incapable of doing one thing at a time. The book is the wonderfully thought-provoking and well-written Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms by Stephen Jay Gould, one of my favorite authors.

In describing historical writings about Luther's defense of his doctrine at the  Diet of Worms, he says the account "reports factual material in an accurate manner—and is therefore "true" in one crucial sense, yet frightfully partial and therefore misleadingly incomplete in other equally important ways" 252. That about sums up my position on almost all writings I have read on the Third Convention, including those (I have read) from the Church. I will point out that I have not yet read Pulido's book on Margarito Bautista. I have heard her lecture on the subject via Zoom. In any form, her book is around $100 USD. No way I can afford that! One disadvantage of living in the boonies in Chihuahua is the total lack of access to books in libraries. I will have to wait until some used copies surface on the various online bookstores. Best wishes!

[Navidad]

18 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Navidad,

there were two very good Mormonism Live episode on this not long ago. I thought they was very well done and in depth.

 

Thanks. I look forward to watching them.
 

 

 

[smac97]

19 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Navidad,

there were two very good Mormonism Live episode on this not long ago. I thought they was very well done and in depth.

 

 

From the first linked video above, at about the 1:12 minute mark:

Bill Reel: Really quick announcement.  We raised about $2,700 bucks, not enough for Maeve {?} to tell her sex toy story.
RFM: Mmm.
Bill Reel: I know.  I know.  I know.  It was all the buzz, you know what I mean?
RFM: That makes Baby Jesus cry.
Bill Reel {laughing}: Yeah, well.  I think Baby Jesus will be all right with it.

Quite a class act, these two.

I skimmed through the first part of the first video.  Bill appears to be reading from a script, which in turn appears to be gleaned almost entirely from online sources.  Par for the course for him, I think.  Slapdash online "research" resulting in a cobbled-together commentary sprinkled generously with barbed asides, cynicisms, and conclusory deprecations.

For anyone who has not spent ten minutes reading about the Third Convention, I suppose Bill's commentary will be illuminating.  

Yawn.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 3, 2023 by smac97

[Derl Sanderson]

Just finished reading the third volume of Saints. It is referenced there on pages 369-376 and 485-488. Yet another deceitfully well-hidden historical item that reflects poorly on the Church. 😁

Edited January 4, 2023 by Derl Sanderson