What Can Faithful Non-Members Do in the Spiritual Life and Ministry of a Ward or Stake?

[manol]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I would think these are simply wonderful, wonderful people to do all this, but why are they doing it for a congregation that disagrees with their own beliefs, and spending all that time and effort for others...

I love your posts, and what you do for our church, but my question is WHY?  

Obviously I cannot speak for @Navidad, but my impression is that he draws a very big and very inclusive circle.  While LDS would tend to put him outside of THEIR circle, it looks to me like he includes them in HIS. 

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind"  - Jesus Christ

Edited December 28, 2022 by manol

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

[On a non-member substitute-teaching a class.]
I’ll have to disagree here, based on General Handbook content:

“Callings for Those Who Are Not Members

“People who are not members of the Church may be called to some positions, such as organist, music director, or a calling to help plan activities. However, they should not be called as teachers, as quorum or organization presidency members, or as Primary music leaders.
“A person whose membership has been formally restricted or has been withdrawn may not have a calling (see 32.11.3 and 32.11.4).” 

Hence, I think there is a general rule here, not just local discretion. And I think it would apply to any ecclesiastical teaching role, including substitute ones. 

This section of the handbook pertains to callings. And I agree that, if we were talking about a calling - including calling someone as a substitute teacher - the direction would be clear.

But if, instead, we are talking about a one-off deviation from the norm then that's exactly the sort of thing that local direction is for.

 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

None of these answers are based on Handbook instructions - correct me if I am wrong.

I believe all of my answers were consistent with the current General Handbook of Instructions - at least, insofar as the questions had anything to do with the handbook in the first place.

 

[blackstrap]

The Handbook is good and covers the majority of situations. However , it CAN be adjusted or even over-ruled by a person with the authority and keys. It probably won't be, but it can be . 

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, Amulek said:

This section of the handbook pertains to callings. And I agree that, if we were talking about a calling - including calling someone as a substitute teacher - the direction would be clear.

But if, instead, we are talking about a one-off deviation from the norm then that's exactly the sort of thing that local direction is for.

 

This strikes me as a distinction without a difference — or without much of one at any rate. Teaching is teaching, be it regular or substitute. Though admittedly there would be less exposure to potential problems with a “one-off” occasion as opposed to perpetual practice, the potential is there, notwithstanding. 

34 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I believe all of my answers were consistent with the current General Handbook of Instructions - at least, insofar as the questions had anything to do with the handbook in the first place.

 

In the handbook content, in particular the passage I quoted earlier, I discern a general pattern with regard to callings, namely that those that pertain to ecclesiastical administration and the promulgation of gospel truths (e.g. teaching, serving in presidencies, etc.) need to be entrusted to individuals who have embraced the doctrines and teachings of the Church and have entered into sacred covenants administered by those who are in authority. Other tasks — singing in choirs, playing the organ, performing solos, doing scripture readings, helping to plan a ward dinner, cleaning the building, helping out with girls’ camp or youth conferences — can be given to other willing, able or talented individuals. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

should say anything as to our worth.  I know it is just a semantics thing, but the possible implications bother me. 

Me too.  I wish we used “preparedness” instead of “worthiness”.

[blackstrap]

We get the adjective worthy confused with the actual word ' worthily ' . 

[rpn]

I've seen non-members do all of the things you listed.   Much of it is just Christian service after all.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s actually a fairly apt application of the word. One who has usufrukt of a piece of property presumably would not be entitled to alter said property in any way. Similarly, a non-member who enjoys certain limited de facto privileges of participation in the Church would not be entitled to materially alter the Church, as for example pressuring or lobbying for alteration in its doctrinal structure, principles, teachings, public stances, etc. 

Thank you. This was one of my “words of the day” when I taught HS Senior English…”the legal right of using and enjoying the fruits or profits of something belonging to another.”

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Similarly, a non-member who enjoys certain limited de facto privileges of participation in the Church would not be entitled to materially alter the Church, as for example pressuring or lobbying for alteration in its doctrinal structure, principles, teachings, public stances, etc. 

Wait. Are you saying regular members are “entitled” to lobby for doctrinal change in the church???

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/27/2022 at 2:58 PM, Navidad said:

If the handbook doesn't say a non-member may do something, does that mean they can't or is it an implication it is a local discretion issue? Or is it something that simply hasn't been contemplated? Thanks for participating. We will have participation trophies! Oh, and we are both 73 years old if that matters.

These answers are based on my understanding of the Handbook and my personal appearance…

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Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Probably, but I wonder if there are liabilities that are covered by Church membership?

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Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

No.  That is a calling.

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May a non-member sing in the choir or a solo at a funeral?

Yes, but on approval of the bishop.

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May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

Why not?

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May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

Meal yes, on approval of bishop; service no; home, whatever the owner says.

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May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

Yes on both. Non-members also may donate to missionary funds, but cannot get a membership record number.

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Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Yes. Everyone who attend are counted.

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Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

Neutral as per scriptural instruction, but remembering it is done to renew LDS baptismal covenants. I would not presume to take the wafer at Mass.

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May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there?

No. It is a calling.

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May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

Probably not. Both should be called.

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May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

Yes, but it would be inappropriate to criticize or contradict the Church, doctrine, or members, or to preach to the members or proselytize. I would ask the bishop for approval first.

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May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? 

Yes, if in a Church facility, sponsored by the Church, if invited or approved by priesthood authority.

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For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

Maybe, depending on location and function, under the direction and with permission of the bishop or stake president.

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May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

Probably not if it is owned by the Church. That is a missionary calling.

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May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

That is a responsibility of the ward and stake clerk. But perhaps could serve as a resource for the clerk or specialist.

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May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

Sunday with bishop’s approval. Christmas, same, but I prefer Polish.

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May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

Of course.

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May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

Permanent or emergency? Maybe. I wish we had had some in Central America.

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May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

I don’t think so, based on my mission many years ago. Apparently the missionary handbook is silent.

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May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together? 

Depends if is it an official Church group or just a bunch of friends.

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What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?  Oh My!

Everyone will applaud and cheer.

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May non-members sing in the stake choir?

Yes, but may need SP approval.

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May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

Of course., but not in the calling of a ministering brother or sister.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, manol said:

Obviously I cannot speak for @Navidad, but my impression is that he draws a very big and very inclusive circle.  While LDS would tend to put him outside of THEIR circle, it looks to me like he includes them in HIS.

This is not correct. He has been a respected long-time participant here and a respected and accepted non-member in his ward and in the LDS academic community. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

He [Navidad] has been a respected long-time participant here and a respected and accepted non-member in his ward and in the LDS academic community. 

Yes he has been! Obviously I need to clarify what kind of “circle” I'm talking about:

My impression is that most active Latter-day Saints have a circle of “us” which excludes non-members, even if they are friendly towards the Church. I have been both inside and outside of this circle. Ime in some cases this “us” circle can exclude some members.

Now I cannot speak for @Navidad, but my impression is that his “us” circle is inclusive of Latter-day Saints as equal partakers in salvation and/or exaltation and/or eternal life or whatever wording he uses to describe the fulness of all Christ offers his true and faithful followers.

And I suspect the inclusiveness of Navidad's "us" circle explains why he does what he does (and desires to do more) for a congregation that disagrees with his beliefs. 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by manol

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Wait. Are you saying regular members are “entitled” to lobby for doctrinal change in the church???

Same question came to my mind. 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Wait. Are you saying regular members are “entitled” to lobby for doctrinal change in the church???

That would seem incompatible with getting a temple recommend.

It would appear to make one opposed to the way the church is presently constituted.

Edited December 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, manol said:

Obviously I cannot speak for @Navidad, but my impression is that he draws a very big and very inclusive circle.  While LDS would tend to put him outside of THEIR circle, it looks to me like he includes them in HIS. 

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind"  - Jesus Christ

Yes, and accepting baptism IS accepting the net. How can you accept ordinances and their purposes without first accepting priesthood authority?

If everyone has authority and a universal priesthood then nobody has priesthood authority. It is an illusion and does not exist functionally. That is the bottom line; no priesthood, then no reason for a church to exist.  Anyone can start a church on every corner, if it even gets called a "denomination", as if it is an organization unto itself, with something unique to offer.

No apostasy, no restoration, no ordinances, like so many churches today, a different "denomination" on every corner, like the 4 corners in Manchester.

I am sorry, but I think it is important to support priesthood authority boldly if needed.

Perhaps that's the Catholic in me, but the only paradigm that makes sense to me. And yet we also know that everyone will eventually accept it AS THE " Church of Jesus Christ".

Without the differention of our priesthood, we have nothing, our entire paradigm is based on unique beliefs.  It has nothing to do with "exclusivity"; it is what holds the paradigm together as a fully coherent point of view.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

These answers are based on my understanding of the Handbook and my personal appearance…

Probably, but I wonder if there are liabilities that are covered by Church membership?

No.  That is a calling.

Yes, but on approval of the bishop.

Why not?

Meal yes, on approval of bishop; service no; home, whatever the owner says.

Yes on both. Non-members also may donate to missionary funds, but cannot get a membership record number.

Yes. Everyone who attend are counted.

Neutral as per scriptural instruction, but remembering it is done to renew LDS baptismal covenants. I would not presume to take the wafer at Mass.

No. It is a calling.

Probably not. Both should be called.

Yes, but it would be inappropriate to criticize or contradict the Church, doctrine, or members, or to preach to the members or proselytize. I would ask the bishop for approval first.

Yes, if in a Church facility, sponsored by the Church, if invited or approved by priesthood authority.

Maybe, depending on location and function, under the direction and with permission of the bishop or stake president.

Probably not if it is owned by the Church. That is a missionary calling.

That is a responsibility of the ward and stake clerk. But perhaps could serve as a resource for the clerk or specialist.

Sunday with bishop’s approval. Christmas, same, but I prefer Polish.

Of course.

Permanent or emergency? Maybe. I wish we had had some in Central America.

I don’t think so, based on my mission many years ago. Apparently the missionary handbook is silent.

Depends if is it an official Church group or just a bunch of friends.

Everyone will applaud and cheer.

Yes, but may need SP approval.

Of course., but not in the calling of a ministering brother or sister.

Agree fully.

Especially about Polish, which is obviously the only remaining portion of Adamic. 

Portion because some conversations and terms between God and Adam have been lost of course 🤔 🥰

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That would seem incompatible with getting a temple recommend.

It would appear to make one opposed to the way the church is presently constituted.

Which is why I was surprised @Scott Lloyd suggested it. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

15 hours ago, manol said:

Obviously I cannot speak for @Navidad, but my impression is that he draws a very big and very inclusive circle.  While LDS would tend to put him outside of THEIR circle, it looks to me like he includes them in HIS. 

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind"  - Jesus Christ

This seems so obvious to me, and it is stunning that someone with @mfbukowski philosophical world view missed it. 

[Navidad]

I have a friend in Gdansk, Poland who sends me amber jewelry for my wife, and even a ring for me! BTW, Gdansk is old Russian Mennonite stomping ground. I am no expert, but I am fairly sure there are some Polish words mixed into the Russian Mennonite low-German or Platt Deutsch. There is a separate low-German (dialect) for the Mennonites who came directly from Germany to the US or Canada via Holland. It is a very different dialect from what is spoken by the Mennonite folk here.

I have tried not to comment too much on the posts on this thread since I started it. I don't want it to appear that I just "like" or comment on statements that may be interpreted as positive for me. Methinks that would be self-seeking.  I will however speak to the circle metaphor. I tend to be on the "edge of inside" of a lot of circles. Those that come to mind are our attendance in the ward, as Anglos living in a small Mexican village, as a "modern" Mennonite in a world of "Old Colony Mennonites" (here in Chihuahua), as a respected historian of things I am not - LDS, Mexican, and as a senior leader in school districts on the operations and finance side (as opposed to the instructional). I was a non-Fundamentalist on a conservative faculty, and an Evangelical in public education. Each of those has its own pain and benefit. I learn - that is a powerful goal in my life. I hurt - am sensitive and can become angry at being excluded. I enjoy it and dread it. It is my world - the world of my own making. I enjoy developing my own theory about CRT from an academic discipline perspective. I don't look at it like the majority of pundits (on either side of a many-sided issue). I enjoy learning about Mormon fundamentalists as much as I enjoy learning about the LDS. I am neither. I don't want to be either. I think I want to be "Just as I am." Warts (no really I still have warts from my mission in Africa!) and all.

I have no idea what usufruct (my spell checker wants to change it to fructose!) means, but what we try and take away from the ward is the fellowship, joy of service, and worship opportunity. Nothing more. We would like to give in those regards as well. I actually prefer to give than to get. When the Holy Spirit gives you a gift for ministry, you just are likely to bust if you can't use it. That is my theology of gifts. I rarely hear about gifts in the ward. I often hear about callings. I am pretty sure they are not synonymous although I am pretty sure the different bishops try. 

I am insatiably curious. I must understand something or I keep asking. That alienates some who tire of it. I understand that. There are many times it would be better if I just stop asking and keep quiet. That is hard for me, as anyone on this forum will attest. I still don't understand the LDS priesthood concept. Oh well! For various reasons I conclude it is mostly an administrative thing - it certainly is not a differentiator of holiness, Godliness, or Christlike living. The most thoroughly Christlike persons I have ever met were an Anglican pastor and a Mennonite bishop. How can they be so Christlike if they are lacking such an important attribute like "the priesthood?" The priesthood methinks, gives LDS men the same authority that ordination gives the Baptist - an administrative authority unique and specific to the particular denomination or group. I can't figure out what else it could be. It seems much more administrative than spiritual. Each is valid, but only within the group.

You see there is one great equalizer here in our part of the world. That equalizer is the rodeo - some are jaripeos and some are lazadas. There is a difference you know! At any rate people (male and female) come, sign up, pay an entrance fee and perform. Both men and women wear their best rodeo clothes - tight jeans, shirts, blouses, and especially hats that cost much more than they can afford. I like to attend for such time as until my allergies to hay, dust, and whatever kick in and I have to leave or die. I think the rodeo is the great unifier that all sociologists should study, especially team roping. You see, you don't get to pick your partner because he or she changes each ride. I love that. The men who dominate the events for some reason tend to be either Mennonite, LDS, LeBaron, or some fancy pants Anglo from New Mexico who can't resist coming down here to add a new buckle - I never could figure that out - you can only wear one buckle at a time!

At any rate, at the rodeo you can't ask a partner if he is a member or not. You won't even know he cusses if he prefers Platt Deutsch! You can tell the LeBaron little boys however - every one of them has an Old Testament name! "Elijah, get over here." "Zephaniah, stop that!" Of course some LDS and many Mennonite boys do too - so there you are - once again the rodeo creates a synthesis where it is hard to differentiate.

It reminds me of middle schools in the time between lunch and classes where I have coached and been a bus driver. After the event, folks divide back up into their religious, cultural, linguistic, groups as they relax around the arena - men on one side women on the other. All the men check out the pretty girls, regardless of faith! Maybe that is another equalizer! There are LeBaron priesthood holders, LDS priesthood holders, and Mennonite elders at the rodeos! Let's just say it is sometimes a challenge to differentiate them. Yep, the rodeo is the great equalizer! That's all I will say!

At any rate, thanks to all for your comments. I am trying to figure out our future in the ward. I had a long conversation with our stake president the other day. I really like him. We do get - but we need to give as well. For those of you who ask why, maybe that helps answer your question. Best to all. Now, where did I leave my soga (rope)? Oh, and I have to buy all my buckles! Ha!

Edited December 29, 2022 by Navidad

[MustardSeed]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I would not presume to take the wafer at Mass.

I attended Mass at a very old church in PA in October.  I asked attendants if it would be appropriate and they enthusiastically said yes.  FWIW

Edited December 29, 2022 by MustardSeed

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This seems so obvious to me, and it is stunning that someone with @mfbukowski philosophical world view missed it. 

Missed it?

How big is the circle? Who defines its edges? How can it be a circle without edges?

I suppose now you buy that cereal that gives you TWO scoops of raisins and you always "repeat" your shampoos because it says to?   Just a tad too vague to consider.  🙃😉

A circle without edges.

Oy vey.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

It seems much more administrative than spiritual. Each is valid, but only within the group.

Of course. Everyone wears white in the temple and we are called of God as was Aaron.  Callings are just that, a job we are asked to take on, and indeed it is primarily administrative.

All worthy men have the same priesthood, but are asked and called by someone higher on the administrative ladder to take on an assignment.

We do not get paid.

As a bishop we often refer serious counseling issues to professionals, and are encouraged to do so.

We don't suddenly decide that we start our own church as others might.  Being a bishop does NEVER imply that he is more spiritual than others.  In our stake for example it is virtually a requirement to be bilingual now, to be called to leadership which is a major challenge.

[manol]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Without the differention of our priesthood, we have nothing, our entire paradigm is based on unique beliefs.

It is not my intention to tear down your unique beliefs. 

It IS my intention to celebrate @Navidad's paradigm, which apparently is inclusive of all full-on participants in this here rodeo, regardless of their unique beliefs.

 

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I still don't understand the LDS priesthood concept.

Do you understand the Catholic priesthood concept?