Arrested for praying

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

But isn't that exactly some times what people must do in order to bring attention to what they believe to be unjust? To bring attention to something that could indeed become a slippery slope before it gets even further out of hand? You reduce this effort (my inference) to 'clever tactic' as though it was almost conniving whereas I see it (yes, my position is crystalizing!) as an effort to protect what should be an inalienable right to think what she wants where and when she wants.

One more only, I promise (yeah, right ).…

I am reading backwards to make sure I didn’t miss any posts…

I gave you a point for this because as far as the legal side of things, I believe being clever and even conniving can be good things because it forces government to deal with poorly constructed and at times unjust laws.  And I believe we should have an inalienable right to think what we want and when we want (but not always where we want, no trespassing and no loitering laws often are necessary even if all the person is doing is thinking…because the next person who appears to just be thinking may be doing more plus there may be conflicting privacy rights).

But she should have been upfront about being clever and pushing for legal change with the world. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Calm

[Vanguard]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

If she was just there praying with no other intent (to protest), someone needs to explain why the other(s) who filmed her arrest were also there. Remember the clinic was closed and they were not arrested for protesting or anything else.  They weren’t just strangers attracted by the uniforms. They were her colleagues.

How is having a video crew outside of the no protest zone relevant? They shouldn't be allowed to do that in what is considered a legal space? It appears they were not there to video her protest of the abortion clinic but rather were there to see if the LEO would make what she believes to be an unlawful arrest. And as I said to pogi, you now want to deny an innocent citizen the right to record what she believes (as do I) should be an unlawful arrest? I think you're conflating the more legitimate concerns against protesting outside an abortion clinic with lawfully pushing back against the corrupting influence of the law. It almost sound like - "Ah, but you admit she was protesting something! Arrest her!" ; )

If there were no camera crew there would your position be that she should have been arrested? This, assuming there are no laws against loitering in the no protest space.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Vanguard

[Vanguard]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I gave you a point for this because as far as the legal side of things, I believe being clever and even conniving can be good things because it forces government to deal with poorly constructed and at times unjust laws.  And I believe we should have an inalienable right to think what we want and when we want (but not always where we want, no trespassing and no loitering laws often are necessary even if all the person is doing is thinking…because the next person who appears to just be thinking may be doing more plus there may be conflicting privacy rights).

Agreed. If indeed there is a law against loitering, I agree with everything you said.

To add, the posts are fast and furious for sure. I keep having to refer back to earlier comments to see if I'm remaining consistent. : ) 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

She wasn't protesting. She was standing. She was standing and was unlawfully arrested for protesting - the arresting LEO already made it a protest for her. She is protesting after-the-fact what should be an unlawful arrest which is the sole recourse for an innocent citizen up against the strong arm of the law. Now, you seem to want to take that away too. In other words, "you can't protest - even in your mind - by an abortion clinic and now you can't protest that the LEO did something he shouldn't have done". Wow. That's a pretty low bar for illegally protesting. : (

Are you suggesting that there was no organized group who planned this event as a protest staged in an illegal zone?

She was not “arrested for protesting” as you claim.  She was arrested under suspicion of violating the public order, and to be further questioned about her unusual and suspicious behavior over a several day period, in front of a building known for being targeted with violent attacks etc.  
 

How many days does a person have to stand in front of an abortion clinic after hours, specifically because it is an abortion clinic, before it becomes a “statement” and before she becomes “suspicious” of violating the public order?  What if it was 10 people just standing in front of the building day after day?  
 

Was she trying to make a public statement in and about a restricted area to be uploaded online?  Yes.  Was it a coordinated and planned effort with multiple players? Yes.  Was her behavior suspicious given the public order and nature of the place of work? Yes.  Given their laws, I don’t see this as an “unlawful” arrest.  You may not like their laws, but it looks to me like they were working within it. She, on the other hand, clearly was not, but was just one actor in an organized protest in an illegal zone.

 

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I'm down with that. I don't particularly have an issue with it but I can respect this position.

But has your position changed? You seem to now have more of an issue with this woman's after-the-fact posturing than you do with the fact that she was arrested for only standing. If her efforts to get the UK legislature to reconsider some of their laws worked, I say more power to her.

Saw the question on my doublechecking…

My positions haven’t changed, just been clarified. 
 

I believe there should be no loitering around medical clinics for privacy purposes. I am pretty sure I stated that at the beginning, why I backed the nonprotesting/harassment zone…though I think it should go further. 
 

My problem from the beginning with Vaughan-Spruce was never her protesting (even if I think protesting there should be illegal), it has always been her dishonesty and double game.  I think lying for personal gain, iow when it’s not required for safety reasons or to protect someone else, is immoral and she lied to the police by saying she wasn’t protesting when she was AND she either lied to the press by saying she was praying or lied to the police by saying she couldn’t say whether or not she was praying.   Add to that the gaming of the press by contradicting what she said to the police and thereby presenting herself as a victim of religious oppression, which is bringing herself and her cause massive attention and money by deception, imo. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Should we really be concerned about whether a person actually tells law enforcement what they're thinking when their behavior isn't demonstrably a protest? .

I disagree that her behavior wasn’t “demonstrably a protest”.  One doesn’t need to use verbal or written words to protest.  There is such a thing as silent protest.  She admitted to going out of her way to intentionally stand in front of an abortion clinic as the leader of a pro-life activist group over a several day period and was organized and armed with a camera man there for purposes of activism.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

How is having a video crew outside of the no protest zone relevant? They shouldn't be allowed to do that in what is considered a legal space? It appears they were not there to video her protest of the abortion clinic but rather were there to see if the LEO would make what she believes to be an unlawful arrest. And as I said to pogi, you now want to deny an innocent citizen the right to record what she believes (as do I) should be an unlawful arrest? I think you're conflating the more legitimate concerns against protesting outside an abortion clinic with lawfully pushing back against the corrupting influence of the law. It almost sound like - "Ah, but you admit she was protesting something! Arrest her!" ; )

If there were no camera crew there would your position be that she should have been arrested? This, assuming there are no laws against loitering in the no protest space.

Urgg…I must not post…and yet I will 

Remember how at the beginning of the video she says “this is not a protest” or something to that effect?

Why is the film crew staked out there? Imo, to film her arrest. She guaranteed her arrest by refusing to say ‘I wasn’t praying’ even though she had denied she was protesting.  Nothing illegal or immoral about having the film crew there to film her arrest as far as I can tell.

Getting arrested imo was her intent. If so, that is a classic protest move even if she also intends it not to stick (by refusing to confirm or deny her praying she is in the no man’s land where police must arrest because there is a reasonable possibility that she was breaking the law while the judge/jury is unlikely to convict because there is reasonable doubt she was breaking the law, which situation is the best of both for her as she can play victim but with likely no long term legal consequences…we got the innocent until proven guilty approach from England, so I am assuming reasonable doubt works much the same).

The film crew’s presence proves intent to protest, imo.  Protesting the law, not the clinic or abortion  in case that isn’t clear.  She wants the right to stand in front of the abortion clinic again.  

Edited December 24, 2022 by Calm

[Dario_M]

I can not say this too aften enough. BUT..i pray wherever i wanna pray. I mean what is THAT now???  

Those police officers are really rude. 

[Dario_M]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Uhm.. i pray where ever i wanna pray if you don't mind. That doesn't make me a hypocrit. 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I can not say this too aften enough. BUT..i pray wherever i wanna pray. I mean what is THAT now???  

Those police officers are really rude. 

Don’t be deceived bro.  Don’t buy into the smoke and mirrors.  It’s a deception.  It is a defilement of the sacred nature of prayer.  She had ulterior and illegal motives to protest and make a statement in an illegal zone.   She was there for 3 days before she even became suspicious of ulterior motives.  

[Vanguard]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that there was no organized group who planned this event as a protest staged in an illegal zone?

A protest against the LEO for arresting her? Yes, I am suggesting that. Are you saying she should not be able to protest when she believes law enforcement is enforcing a law that she thinks should not be legal?

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

She was not “arrested for protesting” as you claim.  She was arrested under suspicion of violating the public order, and to be further questioned about her unusual and suspicious behavior over a several day period, in front of a building known for being targeted with violent attacks etc.

 

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

How many days does a person have to stand in front of an abortion clinic after hours, specifically because it is an abortion clinic, before it becomes a “statement” and before she becomes “suspicious” of violating the public order?  What if it was 10 people just standing in front of the building day after day?

I brought this very question up in my first post. I agree it would seem inappropriate to have numerous people standing there for extended amounts of time. I imagine an anti-loitering law would take care of this.

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

Was she trying to make a public statement in and about a restricted area to be uploaded online?

No. She was exercising what should be an inalienable right to only stand and think whatever she wants. Does the particular say she can't stand?

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

Was it a coordinated and planned effort with multiple players?

Irrelevant. The video crew was not breaking any laws. If so, what law? The LEO triggered their involvement by questioning her and then ultimately arresting her. 

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

Was her behavior suspicious given the public order and nature of the place of work?

Perhaps. Again, is there a law in place against loitering in a public place by simply standing.

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

Given their laws, I don’t see this as an “unlawful” arrest.  You may not like their laws, but it looks to me like they were working within it. She, on the other hand, clearly was not, but was just one actor in an organized protest in an illegal zone

Perhaps you're correct (I do not have the actual wording of the law in question). Conversely, you may like the laws, but that does not mean there's nothing to see. If there were no loitering laws against standing there then I believe it was an unlawful arrest. And no, there was no "organized protest in an illegal zone". Who and what was happening within the protected zone to make it illegal? A woman silently standing there? Who else do you claim was breaking the law?

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Don’t be deceived bro.  Don’t buy into the smoke and mirrors.  It’s a deception.  It is a defilement of the sacred nature of prayer.  She had ulterior and illegal motives to protest and make a statement in an illegal zone.   She was there for 3 days before she even became suspicious of ulterior motives.  

Oh. I thought that she whas there only for 3 hours or so. Not 3 days. 😖 she must have been a little confused. 

[Vanguard]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

Getting arrested imo was her intent. If so, that is a classic protest move even if she also intends it not to stick (by refusing to confirm or deny her praying she is in the no man’s land where police must arrest because there is a reasonable possibility that she was breaking the law while the judge/jury is unlikely to convict because there is reasonable doubt she was breaking the law, which situation is the best of both for her as she can play victim but with likely no long term legal consequences…we got the innocent until proven guilty approach from England, so I am assuming reasonable doubt works much the same).

The film crew’s presence proves intent to protest, imo.  Protesting the law, not the clinic or abortion  in case that isn’t clear.  She wants the right to stand in front of the abortion clinic again.

Watching to see whether she would be arrested was her intent - it didn't have to go down like that. And her intent is solely evidenced by her desire to stand there quietly and to not feel the need to clarify for the LEO what she was thinking at the moment. That's some pretty illegal intent! ;o

The film crew's presence evidences intent to film what could ultimately become an arrest not to protest.

IMO, there are two issues at play - 1) What does that particular law state regards to protest and does it specify whether loitering is not allowed? and, 2) Even if it does specify those things, should it be a law to begin with? I am ok with there being a law against loitering in such an area. I cannot legitimately conceive a scenario where large groups of people continuously stand there silently while women are going to and fro. I am also ok with a law that states others should not protest in said areas. I do, however, have an issue if said law against protests includes a person only standing there silently.

To add, these extended exchanges can become what some might consider pedantic, though I would argue specific words/phraseology matter in this case. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Um… I was just quoting Jesus as reported by the author of the gospel of Matthew, so take it up with Him?

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Uhm.. i pray where ever i wanna pray if you don't mind. That doesn't make me a hypocrit. 

 

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

The LEO triggered their involvement by questioning her and then ultimately arresting her. 

I suspect their involvement was actually triggered by Vaughan-Spruce saying something along the lines of ‘I need someone to film the police and me when I get questioned about what I am doing in the no protest zone after hours, might take a couple of days before someone reports me though, so bring sandwiches and canteens of sweet tea.  If we are lucky, I will get arrested. Be sure you are close enough to record audio.’

***I really want to know who reported her given the clinic was closed every time she came. Could be a security guard, neighbour, impatient film crew member.  The comment ‘she may be praying’ is what makes me suspicious that it could be the last or another colleague as who would care she was praying if the clinic was closed; concerned she was hanging around, sure.  I would expect ‘there’s a lady who has been standing around the clinic for 4 days now and no one is around?!? Please send an officer to check’…but including praying in the complaint sounds like a set up for the press narrative…someone complained she was praying, how antifreedom of religion can you get!

Edited December 24, 2022 by Calm

[blackstrap]

Whatever her intent, I think we can agree ( wishful thinking ) , that she accomplished the goal of raising Cain about the law and abortion. She could have just stood there for a month and little would have happened. LEOs opened that can of worms. 

IIRC , most protests I have seen are illegal somehow, either blocking a public road or protesting without a permit. This particular " protest " was the most peaceful one since George Floyd . 👿

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Um… I was just quoting Jesus as reported by the author of the gospel of Matthew, so take it up with Him?

 

But you called people hyporites for praying outside. The Lord did not say that? So that is why i felt the need to correct you. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

31 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But you called people hyporites for praying outside. The Lord did not say that? So that is why i felt the need to correct you. 

My post was a direct quote from the gospel of Matthew chapter 6. NRSV version. None of that was my words. And I don’t think it was the outside nature of the prayer Jesus (as reported by the author) found problematic. Rather that the prayer was a performance to be seen by others. As was the case here. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Dario_M]

21 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

My post was a direct quote from the gospel of Matthew chapter 6. NRSV version. None of that was my words. And I don’t think it was the outside nature of the prayer Jesus (as reported by the author) that was problematic. Rather that the prayer was done to be seen by others. As was the case here. 

Yes but still tough. I wanna pray where i wanna pray. And you are agree with that quote from Matthew so actually you did say it in a way. 

I am sure you would understand. 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I suspect their involvement was actually triggered by Vaughan-Spruce saying something along the lines of ‘I need someone to film the police and me when I get questioned about what I am doing in the no protest zone after hours, might take a couple of days before someone reports me though, so bring sandwiches and canteens of sweet tea.  If we are lucky, I will get arrested. Be sure you are close enough to record audio.’

Well, if she were actually engaged in behavior that could legitimately be considered protesting then you would have a point. As it were, she did nothing more than stand there in a public space silently without provoking anyone in the least. That's a pretty low bar for 'triggering'. Don't mistake, any citizen has every right to lodge a complaint and the LEO has a responsibility to investigate said complaint though upon finding her simply standing there (and especially when the clinic was closed!) they should have moved on that is, unless silently standing in this context and in a public place is considered against the law in the UK!

Your speculation is interesting and I too wouldn't be surprised in the least that someone on her team made the call to LE. ; )

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

My post was a direct quote from the gospel of Matthew chapter 6. NRSV version. None of that was my words. And I don’t think it was the outside nature of the prayer Jesus (as reported by the author) that was problematic. Rather that the prayer was done to be seen by others. As was the case here.

I thought she said to the officer she 'might' be praying? And even if she said she were, how could one have known? I don't think this instance is a good example of the scriptural passage you quoted.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

As it were, she did nothing more than stand there in a public space silently without provoking anyone in the least.

Is this true? Do we have footage of her standing there? Who reported her for praying and how did they tell?

 

30 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

And even if she said she were, how could one have known? I don't think this instance is a good example of the scriptural passage you quoted.

She went there to make a public spectacle. The scripture fits like a hand in a glove. 
 

Look - I think arresting someone for praying in their mind is stupid, and protesting a stupid law is good. But this is absolutely what she did. 

[Vanguard]

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is this true? Do we have footage of her standing there? Who reported her for praying and how did they tell?

Not that I'm aware of. I've been running with the narrative that everyone seems to be accepting on this thread. 

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She went there to make a public spectacle. The scripture fits like a hand in a glove. 
 

Look - I think arresting someone for praying in their mind is stupid, and protesting a stupid law is good. But this is absolutely what she did. 

As you stated, we have considerable agreement even with the scripture about praying to be seen by others. The problem is that I do not agree at all that this is an example of that. To quote again -

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The scripture clearly talks about those praying to be seen. I don't believe the lady in question has even confirmed she was even doing that in her mind. And even if she were praying in her mind, how can someone see that? To liken her to hypocrites I think is way over the mark and dumbs down the intent of the passage. For that matter, even if she were praying aloud, it does not necessarily mean she was doing so to be seen. There are many instances of praying in public where this is not the case. You and I both have done so in public without falling prey to the intent of the scripture.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Vanguard

[SeekingUnderstanding]

39 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

not necessarily mean she was doing so to be seen.

She literally had a camera crew standing by… Listen, I’ve got the bridge I can give you for cheap. It’s in Brooklyn. 

[Vanguard]

21 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She literally had a camera crew standing by… Listen, I’ve got the bridge I can give you for cheap. It’s in Brooklyn. 

Hey, wait a minute! I thought it was suppose to be 'beach front property in Arizona' you were suppose to sell?!! A bridge in Brooklyn? Isn't there really one there? ; )

The camera crew was there to record the exchange between her and the LEO. Where are you getting this that she wanted her vocalized prayers to be recorded for others to see? There is recording of the exchange. Were they able to catch her praying? ;o