A Little Bit Pregnant?

[JAHS]

BYU professor claims she doesn't 'know the morals' of abortion when a woman is 'a little bit pregnant'

In a recently released recording from a women’s health class at Brigham Young University (BYU), a professor can be heard saying that she doesn't "know the morals" of taking a Plan C pill that would induce a chemical abortion in a case where a woman does not know if she is pregnant.

This is at a school that distinctly supports the anti-abortion position to the exclusion of all others. The audio, released by Cwic Media, records the professor in a lecture that addresses pregnancy and abortion.

"So is there an interspace in pregnancy? Like this article that I was diving in to say... If she had unprotected intercourse before she takes a positive pregnancy test. There's a pill she can take to just ensure. Like in this interspace like I don’t want to take a pregnancy test and I kind of don't want to know if I actually conceived. This pill will just take care of it if I did, and if I didn't."

"So this NPR podcast live episode. It's called ‘a little bit pregnant,’" the professor continued. "I don't know. I'm learning, I haven’t done enough research to actually have an opinion. And I don’t know that I necessarily will or won't have an opinion. I just want to read and listen to what is being discussed in this." (there's more in the article)

___________________________

In my opinion, if a woman takes the pill it is her intention to cause an abortion to happen whether she is pregnant or not. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name, shall the Son of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves in the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name, shall the Son of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves in the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of Hosts.

So, counting God, that is three votes for witch burning.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So, counting God, that is three votes for witch burning.

Let God prevail.

[blackstrap]

Ever heard of a D&C ? 

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Ever heard of a D&C ? 

Yes I have one on my bookshelf.
D&Cs are done when a fetus miscarriages or aborts naturally and the rest of the placenta needs to be removed.
They are of course also done after or during an intentional abortion.

Edited December 23, 2022 by JAHS

[Duncan]

This Greg Matsen is someone who supported that Manifesto, "radical orthodoxy" But his true colours show through. He had this petition or as he called it a "awareness docment" about the liberal perils of going to BYU.  He isn't anyone I would be rallying behind at all if I want to keep my membership in the church.

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

I didn't listen to the audio. Does she confess to weighing less than a duck?

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name, shall the Son of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves in the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Any being that can contemplate torturing its children to death through burning is completely evil and should be opposed at all costs. YMMV. 

[teddyaware]

41 minutes ago, Duncan said:

This Greg Matsen is someone who supported that Manifesto, "radical orthodoxy" But his true colours show through. He had this petition or as he called it a "awareness docment" about the liberal perils of going to BYU.  He isn't anyone I would be rallying behind at all if I want to keep my membership in the church.

I find it deeply shocking that there are more and more members who are rallying in support of the pro-abortion faction of the Church who have come out in open rebellion against the Lord. Wheat and tares anyone?

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D$C 112)

[Calm]

Sounds like the professor was quoting a program with the “little bit pregnant” and other stuff and not choosing the phrasing herself.  I would want to know the circumstances for the discussion to comment on it as well as the circumstances for the Plan C abortion.  If it was birth control for casual sex, I find it quite problematic; if it is taken after a rape to prevent implantation and to terminate a possible very early pregnancy, I think it is an unfortunate but possibly necessary evil and would not judge it as inherently immoral (I believe any spirit that would have entered the body once it actually developed is given another one if there is a miscarriage, intentional or unintentional so there is no physical harm to the being that becomes the child in an early abortion; I don’t believe there is a spirit attached to the few cells, the immorality of early abortions for me is the effect on the mother and those who promote it as a convenience measure).

While it’s a silly label, using “a little bit pregnant” for the time period where someone doesn’t know if they are or are not pregnant instead of saying she “may be pregnant” is quite a bit different in my view than using it once one knows for sure someone is pregnant to downplay the reality of that pregnancy.

And there is also a massive difference in the experience of a day or two old pregnancy and say 6 months along.  There haven’t been very many changes to the woman’s body yet, so in that sense to say “I’m a little bit pregnant” to indicate you are just starting to experience pregnancy, especially emotionally when one has not yet committed to the idea of carrying a child is not an unreasonable view either in my view.  We speak of a woman as being “very pregnant” when she is full term and looks like the baby could pop out if a pin is stuck in her, so to describe a time where there is not even an unseen stretching of uterus walls…hardly surprising to me that some could think of early pregnancy as a “little bit pregnant”.

The Church has not come out against IUDs which prevent implantation.  A Plan B is intended to do the same, prevent implantation.  I can see where someone might view Plan B as no different than an IUD and therefore allowed under the Church’s birth control policy.  For some, not knowing if they have conceived or not may allow them to proceed, especially since Plan B is not intended to disrupt a pregnancy, assuming God will understand if they are in error and they are pregnant.  If they have prayed about it and still feel okay, I don’t see where I can judge them as sinful since the Church has stated birth control is between the individuals and God.

Now a Plan C pill might do the same as a Plan B pill if conception hasn’t taken place yet or it may cause an actual abortion…it seems like it would be taken because an abortion is likely needed.  And that makes it more complicated.  I still have a hard time judging a woman who is in emotional turmoil with hormones shifting and possibly under a great deal of stress as being able to have a clearheaded view of all the consequences may not be possible.  Wishful thinking may win the day.  The Church allows abortion when the health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, though this needs to be determined by a competent physician.  But a woman’s health may be in serious jeopardy even if there isn’t a doctor around to determine it and if a woman seriously believes that is the case and has tried to prevent pregnancy in other ways, but it failed, I would find it very difficult to judge harshly a woman who chose Plan C in the first week or two in order to avoid having to abort a more developed embryo.

A healthy woman after a night of casual sex who couldn’t be bothered to even take a Plan B pill for contraception is a very different set of morality questions, imo.

I don’t really trust interpretation of others’ words when it comes to highly charged issues, but I should be sleeping, I was an idiot to respond thinking it would take just a minute and I am not going compound that by listening to the recording right now if it is available.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Calm

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I find it deeply shocking that there are more and more members who are rallying in support of the pro-abortion faction of the Church who have come out in open rebellion against the Lord. Wheat and tares anyone?

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D$C 112)

I find it deeply shocking as well that people like yourselves deny people their agency-which was Satan plan after all, keep following Satan then. I also find it deeply shocking that God killed children and under 2 years of age when The Israelites were in bondage to the Egyptians

if you want to follow a false prophet like Greg Matsen go ahead but the rest of us don't

Edited December 23, 2022 by Duncan

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I find it deeply shocking as well that people like yourselves deny people their agency-which was Satan plan after all, keep following Satan then. I also find it deeply shocking that God killed children and under 2 years of age when The Israelites were in bondage to the Egyptians

if you want to follow a false prophet like Greg Matsen go ahead but the rest of us don't

Greg Mattson is not really the subject of this post but it is what the BYU professor said to a group of BYU students, which could cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches about this subject.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Greg Mattson is not really the subject of this post but it is what the BYU professor said to a group of BYU students, which could cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches about this subject.

Is it Greg Mattson or someone else’s commentary in the article?  Is there a transcript of what the professor said?  I think it important to distinguish between what was actually said and why and interpretations. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Greg Mattson is not really the subject of this post but it is what the BYU professor said to a group of BYU students, which could cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches about this subject.

Can you provide a reference to a definitive church teaching on when the soul enters the body? Because if not, the phrase “a little pregnant” makes a lot of sense. And I would think the morals of killing a non ensouled entity would be different than killing something with a spirit. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

I am not impressed by the first few minutes of the show, which is Matsen, so it looks like the commentary is his. 
 

The professor is presenting the context of pregnant, how it can be a confusing time. If I caught it, she actually states she doesn’t want to present pregnancy as a burden and that is why she is focusing on the individual pregnant as in “she is pregnant” rather than others talking about them at a distance/abstractly as in “they are pregnant”, but Matsen immediately assumes and pushes heavily the idea she is setting the stage for allowing abortion.  My first reaction is the professor is saying we don’t leave teenagers to deal with pregnancy on their own, it’s society’s responsibility to step in and help…kind of the opposite of what he is interpreting it as. 
 

Because of that I don’t trust his interpretation and based on other behaviours, I don’t trust him to present the full recording and not just the part he sees as relevant, which may be  what he can use to push his agenda. 
 

The transcript is loaded with errors too, so just referencing it is not enough. You can’t obviously see where it changes to the recording, but I might try using it to jump just to those parts later…much later as I need to eat and wrap presents as it is obvious I am not going back to sleep, sigh. Doomed again by my addiction to this board. When will I learn ?
 

That article’s site is loaded with ads, very, very annoying.  From a quick look, it is questionable in terms of accuracy of reporting as well.  I think the only thing that should be discussed therefore is the actual recording. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Greg Mattson is not really the subject of this post but it is what the BYU professor said to a group of BYU students, which could cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches about this subject.

I don’t think it will cause any confusion whatsoever.  She clearly stated that she personally doesn’t know enough to form an opinion.   I respect her open honesty and that she didn’t give into the pressure to blindly and publicly align with the church before doing her own research and and work necessary for forming a spiritual opinion.

I think these college students are capable of distinguishing between her personal uncertainty and the teachings of the church.  If personal uncertainty about teachings/doctrines of the church can’t be expressed without being publicly criticized, then we have big problems.

While I stand on the side of life, I strongly support this professor  in her open and honest transparency in expressing her uncertainty one way or the other, and resisting the pressure to wear the mask that others expect her to wear.

[JAHS]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Can you provide a reference to a definitive church teaching on when the soul enters the body? Because if not, the phrase “a little pregnant” makes a lot of sense. And I would think the morals of killing a non ensouled entity would be different than killing something with a spirit. 

As far as I know there is no definitive teaching on when the spirit enters the body, so how can one know for sure it is a non ensouled body?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

As far as I know there is no definitive teaching on when the spirit enters the body,

If the church has no teaching, then how can she “cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches”?

Edited December 23, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

JAHS, if you want to discuss what she says or the syllabus, my advice is don’t waste anyone’s time, go to the transcript and use that to find and copy the recording, but also double-check it for errors (for example, she says “burden” and the transcript says “organ”).  I will be happy to engage with that, but if you are just discussing what was said about the recording I have spent enough attention on that, someone else might be interested (though I think it foolish to get indignant or even just discuss what is likely a crappy interpretation of someone’s lecture).

Edited December 23, 2022 by Calm

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If the church has no teaching, then how can she “cause confusion regarding what the Church teaches”?

The church does teach against elective abortion, except in rare cases, and the pill causes an abortion to happen.
But I suppose if and when to use it could fall under the heading of something that is a personal choice that is between the person and God.

[BlueDreams]

Watched the parts that only have the recording. I'm not sure where to access the transcript though. There's questions I have right off the bat. The guy cuts out the first minute and the student dialogue. Based on the actual recording, it just sounds like the professor is bringing up an open ended topic for discussion, not as much as an absolute. She acknowledges several points of uncertainty via questions, recognizung gaps in knowledge, and tone of voice. I have a hunch that the first minute may have set up this dialogue in a way that would make that clear. I personally don't see anything wrong in bringing up different ideas around a topic with plenty of uncertainty in a cautious tone at a university. Kinda seems like part of the point to a higher education. 

I don't trust matsen, so I'm not interested in viewing his commentary. To me it would be a waste of time. Based on an earlier video I've seen of his, he has a massive agenda and is extremely allergic to anything that even remotely doesn't toe a conservative view and interpretation in the church at church schools. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

[BlueDreams]

duplicate

Edited December 23, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Watched the parts that only have the recording. I'm not sure where to access the transcript though. There's questions I have right off the bat. The guy cuts out the first minute and the student dialogue. Based on the actual recording, it just sounds like the professor is bringing up an open ended topic for discussion, not as much as an absolute. She acknowledges several points of uncertainty via questions, recognizung gaps in knowledge, and tone of voice. I have a hunch that the first minute may have set up this dialogue in a way that would make that clear. I personally don't see anything wrong in bringing up different ideas around a topic with plenty of uncertainty in a cautious tone at a university. Kinda seems like part of the point to a higher education. 

I don't trust matsen, so I'm not interested in viewing his commentary. To me it would be a waste of time. Based on an earlier video I've seen of his, he has a massive agenda and is extremely allergic to anything that even remotely doesn't toe a conservative view and interpretation in the church at church schools. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

The transcript is found by clicking on the description of the video (click “more” after “show…”)

 

It should have the option to show the transcript there.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Calm