Sunday second-hour meetings are to open with a prayer

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bingo.
 

Because of our reverence and respect for God, we use different forms when addressing Him than we do in everyday speech. Prophets and apostles comprehend this, even if some of us do not. So they teach us accordingly, hoping we will come to understand if we don’t already. 

Is that what it’s about? Or is it about the discomfort we feel when someone “breaks the rules?” The discomfort that occurs when someone operates out of the norm during church is often described as “ the spirit has left the building.”  But perhaps we just feel more comfortable with things that are familiar. I for one prefer to hear “thee” and “thy” etc but I know it’s because of familiarity and having been told as a young person time and again that there is a proper way to pray.  As a result, I used to judge others prayer styles.  No more.  I like the idea of a conversation, without the traditional pauses mid sentence and with a bit more personal flair.  
 

Lord, who made the lion and the lamb
YOU decreed I should be what I am
Would it spoil some vast eternal plan
If I were a wealthy man?

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The “proper language of prayer” is about pronouns. That is pretty much the only change made when talking about the “proper language of prayer”. It is hard to argue it is a false characterization.

I mean what else is there? Changing “has” to “hast” maybe……what else?

Thou art (for are), wilt (for will), shalt for shall, dost or doth for do. Those are some that spring readily to mind. 
 

Also, the -est ending on some verbs, such as knowest. Or -eth on verbs such as taketh. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Is that what it’s about? Or is it about the discomfort we feel when someone “breaks the rules?” The discomfort that occurs when someone operates out of the norm during church is often described as “ the spirit has left the building.”  But perhaps we just feel more comfortable with things that are familiar. I for one prefer to hear “thee” and “thy” etc but I know it’s because of familiarity and having been told as a young person time and again that there is a proper way to pray.  As a result, I used to judge others prayer styles.  No more.  I like the idea of a conversation, without the traditional pauses mid sentence and with a bit more personal flair.  
 

Lord, who made the lion and the lamb
YOU decreed I should be what I am
Would it spoil some vast eternal plan
If I were a wealthy man?

I don’t believe prophets and apostles are telling us we should judge others when they encourage us to use the language of prayer. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Ginger Snaps]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

They used to do this in my wards when I was young.  I can’t remember if it disappeared when we switched to 3 hours or after that.

I thought it was done away with too, but my new ward does it frequently . . .along with asking married couples to speak together and always having the wife go first and the husband last 🙄.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t believe prophets and apostles are telling us we should judge others when they encourage us to use the language of prayer. 

I don't either, but it appears that some people do anyway.

I mentioned above that I prayed at a funeral this week. At the wake afterwards, an elderly couple approached me, and the man said, 'Please don't be offended, but I don't like the way people in your religion pray'.

I asked him specifically what bothered him. He replied that the folding of our arms was offensive, placing a distance between us and God. I thought, but didn't say, 'Wow, it's amazing what people can find to be disturbed over!'

Instead, I asked him what church he and his wife attended. He told me they are Catholics, so I asked them which parish they belong to. I never got a straight answer; it appears that they do a fair bit of parish-hopping.

Anyway, I mentioned to them about our interfaith musical fireside last month. He said, 'Well, we were not invited, or we would have come'. I told him that I would be sure that they got an invitation next year.

Then I said: 'It would be lovely if someone from your parish were willing to come and sing and/or speak for us'.

I strongly suspect I will never see them again. Sad.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Ginger Snaps said:

I thought it was done away with too, but my new ward does it frequently . . .along with asking married couples to speak together and always having the wife go first and the husband last 🙄.

As a bishopric counsellor, I never once asked a married couple to give the prayers, nor did I ever ask a married couple to speak together. And I often assigned a woman as the final speaker. Some Sundays, all prayers and/or all talks were given by females. All very intentional!

[MrShorty]

I don't know if this adds much. I served a French speaking mission and noticed that the Louis Second translators used the informal/singular "Tu" when a biblical character addressed God. We were taught to use these same singular/informal pronouns in prayers.

In English, the church has long favored the KJV, with its 17th century English, and has encouraged us to use similar language in prayer.

Could it be that the main driver of this is what choices were made by the church's main choice for Bible translation? Maybe it's more about making our prayer language and our scriptural/Biblical language similar?

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I asked him specifically what bothered him. He replied that the folding of our arms was offensive, placing a distance between us and God. I thought, but didn't say, 'Wow, it's amazing what people can find to be disturbed over!'

In some cultures folding arms is is sign of impatience and therefore disrespect. On my mission in Austria we didn't fold our arms when praying.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

Not sure what "rule" you are referring to, but some wards like to have husband and wife say the opening and closing prayers at a Sacrament meeting. More of a tradition than anything else.

We were doing this occasionally in our ward (having a husband and wife say the opening and closing prayer in Sacrament meeting), but when a member of the Stake Presidency was visiting our ward (and we had a husband and wife say the opening and closing prayer), he pointed out to us that the Church Handbook says to "avoid always" doing that:

Quote

29.6

Prayers in Church Meetings

Prayers in Church meetings should be brief, simple, and directed by the Spirit. Any baptized Church member may offer an opening or closing prayer. Children who are not baptized may pray in Primary. Leaders should avoid always asking a husband and wife to pray in the same meeting.

So we avoided it after that.   (Interesting wording, "avoid always" ) 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

In some cultures folding arms is is sign of impatience and therefore disrespect. On my mission in Austria we didn't fold our arms when praying.

I get that. But expecting all other people to conform to our own cultural norms is not a recipe for Zion.

This is why I refuse to be bothered by how another person might pray, including the need of some American Evangelicals to use the word just in every sentence. When I was doing postgraduate study in America, we had a recent convert from an Evangelical background who did this, and I had to choose not to let it drive me crazy.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is odd since the English ones are the old timey informal. If the leadership hadn’t pressed on it being a formal method of communication it would actually be consistent.

Exactly. It’s as if their interpretation of it being formal is the reason for the requirement.  But then that creates a lot of holes in other practices and reasonings because their interpretation is incorrect.

My mind doesn’t do well dealing with holes. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by bluebell

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I get that. But expecting all other people to conform to our own cultural norms is not a recipe for Zion.

This is why I refuse to be bothered by how another person might pray, including the need of some American Evangelicals to use the word just in every sentence. When I was doing postgraduate study in America, we had a recent convert from an Evangelical background who did this, and I had to choose not to let it drive me crazy.

Example?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It really depends. I have known German-speaking families where in-laws and even grandparents are referred to with Sie and not du.

A Spanish-speaking member of our ward recently passed away. I had known her for 20 years, had frequently been in her home, etc. I was close enough that her family asked me to give the closing prayer at her funeral this week. I have never used anything other than Usted with her.

And yet, Spanish speakers use tu when praying to God. The informal usage rather than the formal “sign of respect” usage of usted. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bingo.
 

Because of our reverence and respect for God, we use different forms when addressing Him than we do in everyday speech. Prophets and apostles comprehend this, even if some of us do not. So they teach us accordingly, hoping we will come to understand if we don’t already. 

In Spanish they use the informal and personal “tu” in prayer rather than using “usted”, the usage that is formal and meant to show respect.

[InCognitus]

33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is why I refuse to be bothered by how another person might pray, including the need of some American Evangelicals to use the word just in every sentence. When I was doing postgraduate study in America, we had a recent convert from an Evangelical background who did this, and I had to choose not to let it drive me crazy.

I have noticed the same thing (some Evangelicals using the word "just" repeatedly in a prayer).  That usage tries to drive me crazy too, but I try even harder to avoid going crazy by it, and I "just" let it slide. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

What came to my mind is y’all vs you all, or mount’n vs mountain.   More informal slurred or drawled or lazy speech vs more formal precise pronunciation.  But I don’t know if that is the kind of thing he is talking about. 

I thought of that too but it didn’t seem applicable since they aren’t asking us not to say “mou’n” when we pray, so that kind of speech isn’t seen as improper by our leaders.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

I don't know if this adds much. I served a French speaking mission and noticed that the Louis Second translators used the informal/singular "Tu" when a biblical character addressed God. We were taught to use these same singular/informal pronouns in prayers.

In English, the church has long favored the KJV, with its 17th century English, and has encouraged us to use similar language in prayer.

Could it be that the main driver of this is what choices were made by the church's main choice for Bible translation? Maybe it's more about making our prayer language and our scriptural/Biblical language similar?

I think it’s likely this. But then some wanted to add an air of reason to the requirement and came up with “because it’s formal and respectful” before they understood it’s not a formal way of speaking at all.”

 

[InCognitus]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Example?

Are you asking for examples of Evangelical prayers where they use the word "just" frequently?   If so, just Google the phrase "we ask that you just", and you'll find several examples.  Like, "Father God, we ask that you just touch us right now...", "And so we ask that you just wrap your arms around all of them...", "Lord we ask that you just begin to bring financial security to them...", "we ask that you just touch them and cure them..." (etc. etc.)

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And yet, Spanish speakers use tu when praying to God. The informal usage rather than the formal “sign of respect” usage of usted. 

Exactly. The intimate pronouns are used in prayer across all the languages I know. (The distinction really is intimate/familiar vs distant, I believe. Formality is a whole other layer ...)

[blackstrap]

In Spanish the biblical language uses the " tu " form, hence it is also used in prayer. 

In case you want a primer :  All About You: 5 Ways to Say “You” in Spanish and How to Use Each Correctly | FluentU Spanish

I did notice ' vosotros ' used also. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

In Spanish they use the informal and personal “tu” in prayer rather than using “usted”, the usage that is formal and meant to show respect.

In Brazilian Portuguese, they use "tu" instead of "voce" for prayers.  "Tu" is supposedly the informal version of "you" but in Brazil, the use of "tu" is mostly non-existent.  There's a few places that use it but most places just use "voce" in all situations.  So, it always felt more formal because it was only used in prayers and scriptures, never in day-to-day speech.  An interesting point is that the widely used bible (the Almeida Version) uses "tu" in all conversations.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I feel the same.  

It was when I became less worried about whether or not I was using the right format or the correct language, and instead focused on speaking sincerely and honestly, that my relationship with God (and my Savior) grew deeper.

It is disconcerting to have someone judge that as me being rebellious or disrespectful.  And of course, the fruits of it don't at all point to rebellion or disrespect either.

(like I said earlier, I generally use thee, thy, etc. when praying, but sometimes, when trying to use those forms has gotten in the way of what I was trying to express, i haven't.)

This is actually one of the reasons I don't like personally saying public prayers. When I was a teen I just naturally learned to talk with God.....prayer became more and more informal and still is. I would share all that I was and talked to God openly and fully. Meanwhile public prayers were usually more stiff for me...like talking to God a slightly different language. The one time I prayed more like me in a group setting was as a freshman in a roommate/apartment prayer, I finished and my roommates looked at me funny and asked if that was really how I prayed. Probably because I was sarcastic in the prayer. 

I'm not really good a being super formal with God. I know Them because They know and have me. And I'm just not a very formal type of person.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited December 22, 2022 by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

This is way too complicated. I think I will just go back to praying in Enochian.

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, webbles said:

In Brazilian Portuguese, they use "tu" instead of "voce" for prayers.  "Tu" is supposedly the informal version of "you" but in Brazil, the use of "tu" is mostly non-existent.  There's a few places that use it but most places just use "voce" in all situations.  So, it always felt more formal because it was only used in prayers and scriptures, never in day-to-day speech.

This sounds very similar to English!

In Portugal, tu is still frequently used, and você, whilst used, is often avoided by using the person's name instead (i.e., no pronoun), by dropping the subject altogether, or by using something even more formal.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Meanwhile public prayers were usually more stiff for me...like talking to God a slightly different language.

My private and public prayers are two completely different things in most cases. For example, when I prayed at the funeral this week, I wasn't praying for or as myself; instead, I was praying on behalf of all the people in the chapel.

In contrast, when I pray with my EQ counsellors on an issue we have all just discussed, I tend to pray more as myself, though still with a collective element to it. Does that make any sense?

The nature of collective prayer was really impressed upon me during my time serving in the temple. On so many occasions as an officiator, I found myself having specific things to say in the prayer dictated directly to me ... because God clearly knew what was needed, and I had no idea. On many occasions, a patron thanked me afterwards for specifically mentioning what he was in the temple seeking that day.