Pronoun/Gender Wars Continue Apace

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is way too acceptable. I know people it happened to. In many cases there was no intent to deceive. In some cases they straight up said they were transgendered and were assaulted during or after the encounter.

I apologize for flirting with being crass with this sequence of events that is very common. Imagine a guy who has a fetish for transgender people. Generally he resists but his hormones defeats his better judgment and goes on a date or sets up a one night stand. After it is finished the attraction is gone since it was tied to a fetish and with no hormones  he is disgusted with what happened and what he chose to do. Violently disgusted. The anger is vented.

There are many very common things that are not generally socially acceptable, such as robbery.  It does not follow that because something is common, it must also be socially acceptable.

I think there is an unintended consequence of increasing normalization of something we are condemning by claiming it is socially acceptable, even if we personally condemn it.  There is also the issue of lowering our credibility with those who don’t see it being socially acceptable in their own community if we make a general accusation.  Because of that I think we should be cautious in how we discuss the normalization of dysfunctional and dangerous behaviour.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by Calm

[Thinking]

My son is gay and so my wife and I have asked him many questions about the LGBTQ+ world, and there are parts of it that I can't wrap my brain around. I'm not sure why it's okay to just identify as something that one biologically is not. For example, is there such a thing as transracial? Can I decide that I am no longer Caucasian and identify as some other race? It seems to me that doing such a thing would be offensive.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Thinking

[gav]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You can both define it however you want but supporting the rhetoric of these TERFs and gatekeeping the term and spreading baseless fear about transgendered people being a threat is creating a climate of hate and is getting people beaten and killed.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022

This isn’t an accident or an unfortunate side effect of an otherwise lofty academic debate. The goal is to drive transgendered people back into hiding through the threat of violence. Similar to wife-beating to keep women in line, harassment of minorities to keep them low on the economic and social ladder, and targeted persecution of lgbt people in general to keep them closeted.

People are beaten and killed all the time, it is a life hazard, and for some more than others, but to simply imply(as in the linked site) that the moment a person of XY group is beaten or killed, it is exclusively because they belong to XY group, is disingenuous. It would be a more honest portrayal of the facts if other factors are ruled out first and then the remainder is presented as the core risk of that group in its true light, but that wouldn't necessarily support the narrative.

As the phrase Mark Twain popularised goes "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

[gav]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Any transgender who portrays themselves as a woman on a say a dating app to a hetero guy and then meet in person may end up having a very bad day. 

What do you mean?

The contents do not match the labeling or the product is not as advertised... confusion arising from such may place the unsuspecting person in a very awkward situation which they would normally not find themselves in or would generally avoid. What could go wrong? up to the very upset individual I suspect.

[gav]

 

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Some of it might be that what is called a transgender woman is not really a woman to a regular heterosexual guy.  Heterosexual guys just don't want anything to do with a "transgender woman".  Any transgender who portrays themselves as a woman on a say a dating app to a hetero guy and then meet in person may end up having a very bad day. 

I completely disagree with this kind of reasoning.  It's reprehensible that anyone would ever use this as justification for harming another.

But it does happen... because poor communication on the battlefield will lead to friendly fire incidents due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This type of false advertising on a dating app could place people in very close proximity that may normally keep 100 miles apart. Not justified, but likely under some such circumstances and both the poor communicator and the perpetrator bare some responsibility for the unacceptable outcome.

[Dario_M]

Is this about the me too movement and whataboutism? If so yes?.... I am agree with your complain. 👍

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, gav said:

People are beaten and killed all the time, it is a life hazard, and for some more than others, but to simply imply(as in the linked site) that the moment a person of XY group is beaten or killed, it is exclusively because they belong to XY group, is disingenuous. It would be a more honest portrayal of the facts if other factors are ruled out first and then the remainder is presented as the core risk of that group in its true light, but that wouldn't necessarily support the narrative.

As the phrase Mark Twain popularised goes "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Hmmmm……if only there was some easily accessible source of information somewhere. Imagine, if you will, a massive digital network where you could, upon desiring more information or to verify something, could type terms into some sort of “search engine” and acquire more data. If only such a thing existed.

Now imagine that it was fast enough that you could check whether your dismissal of what I said was true in less time than it took you to write up “Baby’s First Guide to Statistics” to sow ignorant doubt about what I said.

I’ll just drop this here.

https://dailybruin.com/2021/04/08/ucla-study-finds-transgender-people-face-greater-rates-of-violent-victimization

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, gav said:

 

But it does happen... because poor communication on the battlefield will lead to friendly fire incidents due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This type of false advertising on a dating app could place people in very close proximity that may normally keep 100 miles apart. Not justified, but likely under some such circumstances and both the poor communicator and the perpetrator bare some responsibility for the unacceptable outcome.

You are comparing a date to a war zone. Do you know how screwed up that is? Do you know how screwed up it is to blame the victim of assault for the assault because they communicated poorly? This is about as reprehensible as arguing that women’s attire means they should expect to be raped. Clearly their clothing choice communicated badly.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It happens but that doesn’t make the two demographic groups equally likely to be assaulted.

I work for the shadow minister for the prevention of domestic violence. Our government keeps very good records. Statistically, the person who is most likely to experience domestic or intimate-partner violence in our society is a male with a same-sex partner. No one else even comes close.

[gav]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You are comparing a date to a war zone. Do you know how screwed up that is?

No, I am simply illustrating that the principle has very wide and general application...

Quote

Do you know how screwed up it is to blame the victim of assault for the assault because they communicated poorly? This is about as reprehensible as arguing that women’s attire means they should expect to be raped. Clearly their clothing choice communicated badly.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is something we should all be doing our best to avoid. To the degree that were are tone deaf to what can or is going on around us, and the likely consequences that may follow, we are ourselves culpable.

I was, in my younger years, a bit naive and was the victim in a number of very violent, life threatening crimes. It became very clear to me, after a string of these incidents, that a little more wisdom on my part would have ensured I never needed to experienced that trauma. I learned from my mistakes and adjusted some of my behaviour and activities and have skipped out on repeats of those incidents ever since.

I'm not victim blaming but saying victims are less likely to become victims if they exercise a bit more wisdom in their choices.

[gav]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hmmmm……if only there was some easily accessible source of information somewhere. Imagine, if you will, a massive digital network where you could, upon desiring more information or to verify something, could type terms into some sort of “search engine” and acquire more data. If only such a thing existed.

Now imagine that it was fast enough that you could check whether your dismissal of what I said was true in less time than it took you to write up “Baby’s First Guide to Statistics” to sow ignorant doubt about what I said.

I’ll just drop this here.

https://dailybruin.com/2021/04/08/ucla-study-finds-transgender-people-face-greater-rates-of-violent-victimization

I live in the meat grinder that is South African Crime. Our experience is that basic crime, gender based violence and hate crime are all complex. More complex than simple statistical analysis reveals. As crime in the United States escalates how many of these statistical studies incorporate "soft target" and "accessibility by criminals" controls. 

How many statistical studies can definitively conclude:

Quote

This isn’t an accident or an unfortunate side effect of an otherwise lofty academic debate. The goal is to drive transgendered people back into hiding through the threat of violence. Similar to wife-beating to keep women in line, harassment of minorities to keep them low on the economic and social ladder, and targeted persecution of lgbt people in general to keep them closeted.

I'm sure there are likely some of these crimes that fall into the category you describe, but how many studies have bothered to look at the relation between more people coming out LGBTQ and consequently more accessible to criminals? How many have looked at the influence of perceived soft target status of trans individuals? These types of things could significantly impact the stats.

I doubt many of these studies will be done since they don't build the narrative and likely won't get the funding. So, for now we are potentially only left with narrative building "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, gav said:

The contents do not match the labeling or the product is not as advertised... confusion arising from such may place the unsuspecting person in a very awkward situation which they would normally not find themselves in or would generally avoid. What could go wrong? up to the very upset individual I suspect.

Is it really? If a date’s profile picture is a few years old and she’s looks different now, do I have a right to get “very upset”? Is it up to me “what could go wrong?” Or am I free to leave with just another awkward dating story to tell? You and CD are pretty disgusting I must say. Nice to see good Christian principles in action. No wonder religion is dying. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[gav]

11 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is it really? If a date’s profile picture is a few years old and she’s looks different now, do I have a right to get “very upset”? Is it up to me “what could go wrong?” Or am I free to leave with just another awkward dating story to tell? You and CD are pretty disgusting I must say. Nice to see good Christian principles in action. No wonder religion is dying. 

Nice to see you still have your "good Christian principles" intact. As do I and as I am sure CD can let us know if he still has any "good Christian principles".

Is it "pretty disgusting" for us to understand how things may and do turn out in the real world where there are increasingly fewer and fewer people with "good Christian principles" or is it "pretty disgusting" for us to be the messenger of such bad news? or are we "pretty disgusting" because it simply suits your narrative of "No wonder religion is dying"?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, gav said:

both the poor communicator and the perpetrator bare some responsibility for the unacceptable outcome.

And do you accuse rape victims of being responsible for their own rape if they were on a date?  Or the hit and run victim for choosing to cross the street at the same time a drunk driver choose to drive down it!  A baby who won’t stop crying for getting shaken violently?
 

The only one responsible for violence is the person choosing to be violent.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Calm

[gav]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

6 hours ago, gav said:

both the poor communicator and the perpetrator bare some responsibility for the unacceptable outcome.

And do you accuse rape victims of being responsible for their own rape if they were on a date?  

Of course not and in this context it is apples and oranges.

But if a person gets raped by willingly frequenting an area late at night they know to be a tough neighborhood with a reputation for rapes. i.e. they knowingly make themselves accessible to a well known criminal element then definitely some of that is on them.

If there is a known and well publicised wave of home invasions in your neighbourhood but a family refuses to put up burglar bars and secure their doors at night then a lot of that is on them.

Quote

Or the hit and run victim for choosing to cross the street at the same time a drunk driver choose to drive down it!  

Hardly! unless the hit and run victim was playing chicken...

Quote

The only one responsible for violence is the person choosing to be violent.

Does that exclude our responsibility to look to our own safety and security? Since I have become more mindful of my own security and the places I frequent I have a lot fewer violent incidents in my life.

[Nofear]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

My son is gay and so my wife and I have asked him many questions about the LGBTQ+ world, and there are parts of it that I can't wrap my brain around. I'm not sure why it's okay to just identify as something that one biologically is not. For example, is there such a thing as transracial. Can I decide that I am no longer Caucasian and identify as some other race? It seems to me that doing such a thing would be offensive.

Yes, one can identify as transracial. She faced severe backlash for this though. But, that was 7 years ago and perhaps the world is much more enlightened now.
https://www.insider.com/rachel-dolezal-onlyfans-transracial-white-woman-black-2021-8

[HappyJackWagon]

20 hours ago, SteveO said:

I didn’t know mansplaining only occurred when directly responding to a woman.  I thought included in the definition might’ve been a general dismissing of legitimate concerns of most women with conspiracy theories and other such nonsense:

 

I think that is exactly what "mansplaining" is. If a man is "mansplaining" to another man it's just called "splaining".  

 

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Yes, one can identify as transracial. She faced severe backlash for this though. But, that was 7 years ago and perhaps the world is much more enlightened now.
https://www.insider.com/rachel-dolezal-onlyfans-transracial-white-woman-black-2021-8

This is what wiki says about it (quoting because it has some links that people might be interested in). 

From what I've read, people of color do not respond well to white people claiming to be someone of color.  Terry Crews (a famous black man) asked the question about why it's acceptable for someone to be transgender but not transracial on his facebook page and the people came for him in the comments.  

"In April 2017, the feminist philosophy journal Hypatia published an academic paper in support of recognizing transracialism and drawing parallels between transracial and transgender identity.^[1] Publication of this paper resulted in considerable controversy. The subject was also explored in Trans: Gender and Race in an Age of Unsettled Identities, a 2016 book by UCLA sociology professor Rogers Brubaker, who argues that the phenomenon, though offensive to many, is psychologically real to many people, and has many examples throughout history."

[Calm]

6 hours ago, gav said:

Of course not and in this context it is apples and oranges.

But if a person gets raped by willingly frequenting an area late at night they know to be a tough neighborhood with a reputation for rapes. i.e. they knowingly make themselves accessible to a well known criminal element then definitely some of that is on them.

If there is a known and well publicised wave of home invasions in your neighbourhood but a family refuses to put up burglar bars and secure their doors at night then a lot of that is on them.

Hardly! unless the hit and run victim was playing chicken...

Does that exclude our responsibility to look to our own safety and security? Since I have become more mindful of my own security and the places I frequent I have a lot fewer violent incidents in my life.

Confusing and combining responsibility for violence with responsibility for safety measures is never going to result in a healthy approach to healing for victims or for creating safe environments.  Best to keep them separate to avoid victim blaming and the false sense of security that comes with it for those who see themselves as different than the victims. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Calm

[california boy]

19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No one here is condoning violence, but yes, it is socially acceptable to be hurt and confused and to feel used and manipulated when one realises s/he has been intentionally deceived in such a fundamental way.

Some years ago, one of my housemates ordered an iPhone from a vendor in China. What he got had the iPhone logo, but it wasn’t an iPhone in any way. Exact same situation. And yes, he was quite upset.

Fooling people is risky as some targets don’t know how to respond well. Naturally, this doesn’t excuse the bad response. 

Do you feel the same about a woman who posts a photo of herself maybe 10 years younger then she actually is?  Is she in danger of being beaten up because she deceived in her profile?  Or is the "understandable" that someone would get up only apply to transgender profiles.

For the record, I think that trans women should be upfront about who they are.  There are plenty of straight men that would love to date transgender women.  But that does not mean I am ok with understanding that violence may be the result.  Maybe it is just me.  I am not that into violence based on something I might not want to embrace myself.  A simple, this doesn't work for me seems to be ok with me.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

she in danger of being beaten up because she deceived in her profile?

Quite possibly, yes. Women get beaten up for less. 

[california boy]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t know if CD thinks it’s okay, but his comment is ambiguous and normalizes violence as a response even if he doesn’t approve of it, but I don’t see anyone else responding saying it is appropriate or natural to respond with violence to unexpectedly meeting a transwoman when imagining a cis woman (on the side note, I don’t have a problem myself with the label, I do believe it is important to have places both cis women and transwomen feel safe and not just are safe given many who need these spaces won’t use them if they don’t feel safe, therefore this may need to be solved in many cases by having different safe spaces).

What you can't deny is there seems to be a lot of anger about this issue.  The whole OP is designed to stir up anger.  It seems to be working from the comments I am reading even if some are a bit more subtle than others.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

What you can't deny is there seems to be a lot of anger about this issue.  The whole OP is designed to stir up anger.  It seems to be working from the comments I am reading even if some are a bit more subtle than others.

What is the difference between disagreement and anger in posts?

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What is the difference between disagreement and anger in posts?

When violence seems to be understandable.  When people who are angry don't downvote those posts that find violence understandable.  When there is a tone in the post that suggests things that are completely unrelated like fake iPhones makes that anger against a certain population understandable. When the purpose of the OP seems designed to stir up that anger.

Edited December 19, 2022 by california boy

[Calm]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

When violence seems to be understandable.  When people who are angry don't downvote those posts that find violence understandable.

Insisting that people downvote posts is unreasonable. Not everyone uses the system.  Some are not even aware of it (I know this because some have asked what others are talking about and have to have it explained where the voting takes place).  Demanding that people respond the way you think they should and accusing them as being supportive of violence if they don’t is wrong and is setting yourself up for a lot of misunderstandings. 
 

Downvoting, imo, isn’t that useful as it doesn’t pinpoint what one finds objectionable or why.  It is hardly likely to change anyone’s behaviour.  I rarely use it for that reason. I thought I would see if I felt it made a difference this time and I don’t see it as useful for me, so chances are I won’t get above a dozen uses before the board disappears into the ether. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Calm