Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[The Nehor]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:02 AM, Stargazer said:

15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

Note to Self: Discover how to become a masochist and then do so.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Note to Self: Discover how to become a masochist and then do so.

Unfortunately (or is that fortunately?) this suffering does come to an end. As I am sure you're aware, but just for the sake of others who may not realize this:

DC 19: 6-12 - Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation ... For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore — Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Unfortunately (or is that fortunately?) this suffering does come to an end. As I am sure you're aware, but just for the sake of others who may not realize this:

DC 19: 6-12 - Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation ... For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore — Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

I have always been flustered by this befuddlement of words.  Just what exactly is going on here?

If "endless" and "eternal" is supposed to mean something other than "no end" (as some people interpret from this verse) what is it supposed to mean?  

Endlessness has an end?  

It further states "I am endless".  "Endless is my name".   Ok, so if "endless" has "an end" (as some interpret), am I to understand from this verse that God therefore has an end, just like his punishment and suffering?

Edited December 17, 2022 by pogi

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have always been flustered by this befuddlement of words.  Just what exactly is going on here?

If "endless" and "eternal" is supposed to mean something other than "no end" (as some people interpret from this verse) what is it supposed to mean?  

Endlessness has an end?  

It further states "I am endless".  "Endless is my name".   Ok, so if "endless" has "an end" (as some interpret), am I to understand from this verse that God therefore has an end, just like his punishment and suffering?

Do you really want torment that has no end? That's what our non-LDS Christian brethren want, apparently.

You are confusing names with adjectives, or possessives. The name "Eternal" in connection with God is both his name as well as one of his characteristics. I know of branches of Christianity that prefer to refer to God as "The Eternal" rather than as "God." 

We also run into the conundrums of imperfect human language. Saying "eternal punishment is not the same as Eternal punishment" sounds like double-talk. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if the punishment is "God's punishment," then there are two possible meanings -- it forms a pun, in other words. Let me bring it down to your level: what is Pogi's punishment? Is it the punishment that Pogi must endure, or the punishment that Pogi metes out? It clearly depends upon context. 

In respect of God, it might better be worded "Godly punishment," even though it does look like God is playing word games. I'll admit that, but is it more reasonable to believe that God wants torture on the scale that Christ had to endure to never end? 

And, note carefully the fact that Christ's suffering did not go on forever. It started shortly after Christ arrived at the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished." And in DC 19:17-19, He said:

But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink — Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Now, consider also the fact that if you, Pogi, have not repented and Eternal punishment really means eternal punishment, you will have to suffer that excruciating pain beyond mortal ken, for the next quadrillion years and on to infinity, will you not have suffered more, quantitatively, than Christ did?

But Christ says "suffer even as I." This says to me that your punishment will be of the same, character, depth, and length as His. In other words, your punishment will end once it has finished.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I have always been flustered by this befuddlement of words.  Just what exactly is going on here?

If "endless" and "eternal" is supposed to mean something other than "no end" (as some people interpret from this verse) what is it supposed to mean?  

Endlessness has an end?  

It further states "I am endless".  "Endless is my name".   Ok, so if "endless" has "an end" (as some interpret), am I to understand from this verse that God therefore has an end, just like his punishment and suffering?

The usual explanation is that hell itself is endless because it must endure forever but most people only get 1000 years of endless torment rather than an endless amount of endless torment.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Do you really want torment that has no end? That's what our non-LDS Christian brethren want, apparently.

If dismissing scripture because I don’t like it is allowable I promise you I will definitely abuse this privilege.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

what is it supposed to mean?  

God likes wordplay.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Do you really want torment that has no end? That's what our non-LDS Christian brethren want, apparently.

I don't think it is about what I "want".

I am simply commenting that this verse is far too befuddling and unclear to use it as any clear and reasonable proof that punishment is one way or another.  I certainly don't want to believe that punishment is eternal and endless, but this verse could be taken several different ways.

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You are confusing names with adjectives, or possessives. The name "Eternal" in connection with God is both his name as well as one of his characteristics. I know of branches of Christianity that prefer to refer to God as "The Eternal" rather than as "God." 

"I am endless...for Endless is my name"

lower case 'e' vs capital E.  

"Endless" is his name, and "endless" is a characteristic he holds, I gather.   What I am pointing out is that in the first sentence he suggests that "endless" doesn't mean that it "has no end" (that is lower case 'e').  So, if endless is the characteristic of God, then I can only conclude that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't have an end.  So...what does it mean?  What does lower case 'e' endless mean in this verse?

 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The usual explanation is that hell itself is endless because it must endure forever but most people only get 1000 years of endless torment rather than an endless amount of endless torment.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 make it clear that the suffering endured in hell is indeed endless, and most certainly will not come to an end unless those suffering God’s endless punishment in hell exercise authentic faith in Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and humbly repent of their sins, thereby receiving divine pardon. For the sons of perdition, hell truly is endless punishment, and the reason why it is endless for them is because they refuse to bow the knee to Christ and sincerely repent of their sins.

No wicked man or woman suffering in hell for their sins will ever be able to suffer long enough and hard enough to be able to atone for their own sins, only the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ can do that. The purpose of suffering in hell isn’t to expiate sin but for sinners to suffer with enough intensity to finally come to the realization that the only way out of the endless punishment of hell is to come unto him whose name is Endless and receive a remission of their sins through his redemptive infinite and eternal sacrifice vicarious sacrifice for sin.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath o Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (meaning most of those who have been thrust down to hell will eventually cease to be in a state of rebellion against God and Christ),

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the winepress alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God (meaning he causes those thrust down to hell to suffer a punishment that will remain endless until their rebellious, unrepentant souls are subdued by suffering — not atoning — for their own sins).

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess  to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever (I.e. confess unto God the Father that Jesus is indeed the Christ);

111 For they shall be judged according to their works (primarily the work of repentance), and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared (the repentant and forgiven inheritors of the telestial kingdom will enter into one of God’s three heavenly kingdoms of glory because they finally come unto Christ in faith, sincerely repent of their sins, and ultimately receive forgiveness at his hand. But because the only way these formerly rebellious souls could eventually be persuade to come unto Christ and seek divine pardon is by first being thrust down hell, they are relegated to a lower kingdom of heavenly light and glory);

And lest anyone think being subjected to this painful redemptive process I’d unfair, it needs to be understood that we all covenanted and agreed to abide by these terms before coming to this fallen earth.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If dismissing scripture because I don’t like it is allowable I promise you I will definitely abuse this privilege.

You think it's a matter of not liking it? I think it's a matter of whether something conforms to the truth.

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

"I am endless...for Endless is my name"

lower case 'e' vs capital E.  

"Endless" is his name, and "endless" is a characteristic he holds, I gather.   What I am pointing out is that in the first sentence he suggests that "endless" doesn't mean that it "has no end" (that is lower case 'e').  So, if endless is the characteristic of God, then I can only conclude that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't have an end.  So...what does it mean?  What does lower case 'e' endless mean in this verse?

Or a better question, what does the lack of an uppercase "E" mean in the original history copies?   History, circa 1841, draft [Draft 3]:

Quote

For behold the mystery of Godliness how great is it for behold I am endless and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment for endless is my name; wherefore Eternal punishment is God’s punishment: Endless punishment is God’s punishment:

See also:  History, circa 1841, fair copy, History, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2], Revelation, circa Summer 1829 [D&C 19] (1833 Book of Commandments), 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, TIMES AND SEASONS Vol. III. No. 24.,OCT. 15, 1842, 1844 Doctrine and Covenants, and probably more.

I just checked a 1891 Doctrine Covenants, and it still says "endless is my name" (lowercase).  It is capitalized in my 1928 Doctrine and Covenants.  So someone, between the printing of the 1891 and 1928 Doctrine and Covenants, decided that it should be capitalized. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You think it's a matter of not liking it? I think it's a matter of whether something conforms to the truth.

I wish I trusted myself more to determine that with surety.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

And lest anyone think being subjected to this painful redemptive process I’d unfair, it needs to be understood that we all covenanted and agreed to abide by these terms before coming to this fallen earth.

Yes, I am aware my younger self was an idiot. No need to rub it in.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

And lest anyone think being subjected to this painful redemptive process I’d unfair, it needs to be understood that we all covenanted and agreed to abide by these terms before coming to this fallen earth.

What happened to those who didn’t agree to the terms?

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't think it is about what I "want".

Exactly correct.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I am simply commenting that this verse is far too befuddling and unclear to use it as any clear and reasonable proof that punishment is one way or another.  I certainly don't want to believe that punishment is eternal and endless, but this verse could be taken several different ways.

"I am endless...for Endless is my name"

lower case 'e' vs capital E.  

"Endless" is his name, and "endless" is a characteristic he holds, I gather.   What I am pointing out is that in the first sentence he suggests that "endless" doesn't mean that it "has no end" (that is lower case 'e').  So, if endless is the characteristic of God, then I can only conclude that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't have an end.  So...what does it mean?  What does lower case 'e' endless mean in this verse?

 

Every human language is a compromise between precision and history. English is no different. There is a language, forget which one it is, in which there are two forms of the pronoun "we". One form means "all of us". The other one means "all of us, but not you". English is not so precise. In some languages there are both singular and plural forms of "you". German is one, and English used to be another. More recently, German acquired a third "you", for both singular and plural, which was the formal "you". English lost all that precision long ago. 

I say this because when it comes to understanding the deep things of the gospel, God is working with a limited language with a limited vocabulary. And that He uses it to convey different levels of meaning. I suppose that Adamic is far more precise, but we don't have use of it here in mortality.

The letter case of "e" in "Eternal" or "eternal" is, I believe, just a way to tell them apart. Unfortunately, English capitalizes initial words in a sentence, so whether it is an adjective or a nominative can be disguised by the orthography.

These verses in DC 19 explain that the suffering incident to one's personal atonement (because one did not accept Christ's atonement) is of definite, not infinite, duration. The Lord explains it as if He intended it to be a bit of a play on words. If that seems deceptive, consider that if you suffer for your own sins, your punishment is eternal in the sense that your assignment to the Telestial Kingdom is infinite, that there is no advancement out of it. So, your punishment (if not suffering) is Eternal as well as eternal. Different levels of understanding.

Consider all the names of God, especially some of those found in Isaiah 9:6.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Thus, he could have called the punishment given from his hand "Wonderful Punishment". Now would that have the same flavor as "Eternal Punishment"? One might actually be attracted to punishment which is wonderful! But eternal punishment just doesn't have the same attraction.

I do think that God likes to play word games. But I don't think this word play has nefarious purposes. I think He uses it to obfuscate things that should be obfuscated. Just like He did with His parables.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I wish I trusted myself more to determine that with surety.

On some matters, to me at least, I seem to have a surety. Not on all, of course.

[Stargazer]

56 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What happened to those who didn’t agree to the terms?

That's the one-third of the host of heaven. They didn't come here because they preferred Lucifer's plan, which, if you recall from your earlier days, made it so that none would be lost because none would be allowed to transgress.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

That's the one-third of the host of heaven. They didn't come here because they preferred Lucifer's plan, which, if you recall from your earlier days, made it so that none would be lost because none would be allowed to transgress.

I think the point was that if your options were to go to Earth or live in endless torment it is not exactly a freely entered covenant.

I have heard it posited that there may have been an option to not take the leap to mortality but to remain in spirit form but that is speculation.

Edited December 18, 2022 by The Nehor

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think the point was that if your options were to go to Earth or live in endless torment it is not exactly a freely entered covenant.

I think that we haven't been told everything there is to know about the pre-existence. It's entertaining to speculate about it, but much like debating the number of angels who can simultaneously dance on a pin (or pinhead), it's informative value is very, very low. It is a subject with a very low signal-to-noise ratio.

That being said, my understanding of the nature of God suggests to me that there was no compulsion involved. That a rebellion was allowed at all, strongly leads me to conclude this. God being God, He could easily have refused it. Much like our dear Moderator (Hi @Nemesis!), God has the power to brook no argument. Yet he did brook it.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard it posited that there may have been an option to not take the leap to mortality but to remain in spirit form but that is speculation.

I have speculations as to the nature of existence that would not pass muster in any Sunday School class anywhere in the Church.

But I am intrigued by this statement in the Doctrine and Covenants (DC 93:29): 

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

I wonder what this means? I feel that God brought us forth by instruction and testing, by voluntary means, and that at every step in our progression we were free to say "That's far enough, I do not wish to proceed." And have it stick.

After all, it was He who caused this to be written (DC 121:41):

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

If God has said that, while He forbids it to us, He reserves to Himself the power to be a tyrant dictator, in the eternal scheme of things, I don't see where this is written.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Stargazer