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Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?


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10 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you for your storie. I try to understand it as much as posible. I am quite good in English but even i have my limits in understanding  everithing. Unfortunatly. 

But i apriciate your effort to write all this down for me. Thank you verry much. You are too kind. 🥰

My grievance...i have so manny of them. Letting it go is too hard on the moment. I just can't. I am crying a lot about it. Every day. 

Especially these last 2 years where Hard. Cold. Mean. Lonely. Terifying. Upsetting. Stressfull. Nightmare. And now 2 years later i have lost so much thinks. Thinks like... friends family and partner a nice house. That i use to have. But i dont have that anymore. And i will never have that again. I wish i apriciated it more in the moment when i had it all. (I am thankfull that i at least still have my parents.🙏)

Tomorrow when i go to church i will think about all these thinks. And ask god why all of this whas so naccesary for me to go trough. 

 

 

The prophet's wife wrote about the questions we ask God.   She suggests changing our questions.  One way to possibly change your question might be "what do you want me to learn from this?" It might seem like the same question, but it's slightly different with a different focus.  

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10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

That's not fear.  Those are simply the steps you must take if you want to participate in those specific objectives.

If you don't go to grade school, you can't learn to read.  If you don't learn to read, you can't graduate from high school.  If you want a good job you may need to go to college.  Does fear drive you to do those things?  Or do you do them because you desire the better result in the end?  

 

 

I am not talking about steps that have to be taken to progress.  I am talking about the threat that if you didn't take those steps you will not be with your family for eternity???  Or the whole if you don't pay your tithing you will burn at the coming of Christ

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Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon (D&C 64:23-24).

 

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7 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am not talking about steps that have to be taken to progress.  I am talking about the threat that if you didn't take those steps you will not be with your family for eternity???

What threat?  If someone chooses to not take those steps they are choosing to not be with their family for eternity.   Or, if someone chooses to take those steps, then they are striving to be with their family for eternity.  How is that driven by fear?  It would seem to me that the latter option is driven by love and the desire to be with family, not the fear of losing them.

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

Or the whole if you don't pay your tithing you will burn at the coming of Christ

You're reading that verse wrong.  "He that is tithed shall not be burned".  It doesn't say if you don't pay your tithing you will be burned at the coming of Christ.  Instead it's a promise that those who DO pay their tithing won't be burned.  If someone pays tithing out of fear of being burned, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons.  

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5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I just think we should show it more respect and skipping the sacrament because you haven't repented of a minor sin should be more common, I'd think. But instead, it is an anomaly, we have to do it while everyone is watching. We shouldn't feel ashamed, but we do any way. There should be a more anonymous way to refuse the sacrament so only the Bishop need concern himself, to intervene if its constantly refused.

But few, if any, are actually watching in my experience. I certainly could never had told anyone an hour later who did or didn’t refuse. 

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2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

What threat?  If someone chooses to not take those steps they are choosing to not be with their family for eternity.   Or, if someone chooses to take those steps, then they are striving to be with their family for eternity.  How is that driven by fear?  It would seem to me that the latter option is driven by love and the desire to be with family, not the fear of losing them.

Well that is the threat isn't it.  If you don't follow these steps then you are choosing to not be with your family for eternity.  Wait, what?  I don't think ANYONE decides to not do everything the Church asks because they don't want to be with their family.  

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You're reading that verse wrong.  "He that is tithed shall not be burned".  It doesn't say if you don't pay your tithing you will be burned at the coming of Christ.  Instead it's a promise that those who DO pay their tithing won't be burned.  If someone pays tithing out of fear of being burned, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons.  

So just why does the scriptures mention that if you pay your tithing you won't get burned?  Is this the whole pay your tithing fire insurance thing???  

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23 hours ago, Dario_M said:

???

Uhm... may i wish you for now a nice evening. And tomorrow a really nice Sunday. 

God bless you. 🙏

Dario, we typically go to wards based on our location. If we live in a certain spot, we will be going to x ward, if we live elsewhere it is Y ward. It is unusual, but not unheard of to attend a different ward than your neighbors would if they are members. The way it is done, it usually makes it easier to get to know and support your fellow ward members…unless your ward and you don’t really mesh. Then it’s a chance to grow in patience and tolerance. :)  I know of some who attend a different ward because of work or perhaps they are divorced and it’s better they are not in the same ward with their ex. 

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I just think we should show it more respect and skipping the sacrament because you haven't repented of a minor sin should be more common, I'd think. But instead, it is an anomaly, we have to do it while everyone is watching. We shouldn't feel ashamed, but we do any way. There should be a more anonymous way to refuse the sacrament so only the Bishop need concern himself, to intervene if its constantly refused.

It happens all the time that people don’t take it for a week. It is pretty anonymous except for possibly the people sitting behind you and right next to you. I have done it a few times. No one has ever said or done anything.

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12 hours ago, Rain said:

The prophet's wife wrote about the questions we ask God.   She suggests changing our questions.  One way to possibly change your question might be "what do you want me to learn from this?" It might seem like the same question, but it's slightly different with a different focus.  

Okay thank you so much for you post. 🥰

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8 hours ago, Calm said:

Dario, we typically go to wards based on our location. If we live in a certain spot, we will be going to x ward, if we live elsewhere it is Y ward. It is unusual, but not unheard of to attend a different ward than your neighbors would if they are members. It makes it easier to get to know and support your fellow ward members…unless your ward and you don’t really mesh. Then it’s a chance to grow in patience and tolerance. :)  I know of some who attend a different ward because of work or perhaps they are divorced and it’s better they are not in the same ward with their ex. 

Yeah i rather stay in the same church. And offcourse thinks can get complicated when you have some problems with a churcv member.  But it is what it is. I dont wanna travel to far to go to another church location while i have on close to me. Problems are made to solve them. We are all inperfect and if we have the ebility to forgive one another that would be a really powerfull thing. 

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14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

What threat?  If someone chooses to not take those steps they are choosing to not be with their family for eternity.   Or, if someone chooses to take those steps, then they are striving to be with their family for eternity.  How is that driven by fear?  It would seem to me that the latter option is driven by love and the desire to be with family, not the fear of losing them.

You're reading that verse wrong.  "He that is tithed shall not be burned".  It doesn't say if you don't pay your tithing you will be burned at the coming of Christ.  Instead it's a promise that those who DO pay their tithing won't be burned.  If someone pays tithing out of fear of being burned, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons.  

God: (in a stereotypical Italian voice) That is a nice soul you got there friend. Be a shame if it got damaged. So you going to go along with our little scheme? I hope so. Oh, that is a nice picture of your family there. Sure would be sad if you never saw those adorable children again wouldn’t it? Wow, you married well, congrats. Sure would be to nice to enjoy that forever. Can’t promise that though unless you play ball see? Whoops, slipped and broke your heart. So is that broken heart gonna lead to a contrite spirit or are we going to have to have another talk?

There are times the gospel can come across like that.

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14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

You're reading that verse wrong.  "He that is tithed shall not be burned".  It doesn't say if you don't pay your tithing you will be burned at the coming of Christ.  Instead it's a promise that those who DO pay their tithing won't be burned.  If someone pays tithing out of fear of being burned, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons.  

If i tell my child that if they do all their chores they will not get the belt tonight, to me that sounds threatening.  It’s a reasonable assumption to say It does sound like if they don’t do chores, they WILL get the belt.  

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7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

If i tell my child that if they do all their chores they will not get the belt tonight, to me that sounds threatening.  It’s a reasonable assumption to say It does sound like if they don’t do chores, they WILL get the belt.  

It is not reassuring either to be told you might get burned or you might not and not provide any details on how that works, only a guarantee you won’t be if you tithe as commanded.

My guess if that reading is accurate (it only is a guarantee about not being burned, it is open ended about being burned), there are four groups in play.

1) there are those who hear the command to tithe and understand what it means and therefore they tithe and they are promised not to burn (which to me is an emotional and mental burning, not a physical one; I am guessing it’s similar to burning in shame, but ramped up because of a deeper understanding that takes in a much greater context for every action we have taken as we come to fully comprehend the impact of our choices)

2) there are those who hear the command and understand what it means and decide it’s not worth it for whatever reason.  Perhaps that reason even needs to be a rejection of the call to build up the kingdom of God, they don’t care about God’s work and perhaps are even antagonistic towards it.  These will burn, probably a slow roast building over time as their pettier, more superficial aspects are exposed and burnt away by the truth of God, exposing more of their soul to God’s reality and their real struggle to come to terms with that involves some deep shame, rage, and hate that must be purified before they are capable of enduring even the glory of the Telestial.

3) those who do not comprehend the call to tithe, either because they never heard it or because when they heard it, the actual message didn’t get though because of false beliefs, louder voices, or an inability to understand (perhaps due to deprivations when growing up they are addicted to hoarding and can’t give of themselves in that way, or they are depressed and their minds can’t form ideas well enough to act on), but they are righteous when they do both hear and understand the commandments of God and are willing to try and obey…my guess is these are they who don’t tithe, but aren’t burned in hell either because they quickly repent when they are taught the truths of God in the next life.  God has said he judges people by the laws they receive, so why would he burn those who did not receive his law?

4) those who do not hear or do not comprehend, but they hear and comprehend other commandments/laws of God and they intentionally do not obey them because the laws are not as important to them as their own desires, whatever those might be.  They will burn, not because of not tithing because they didn’t receive that law, but they will burn for the other laws they knowingly broke until their hearts, minds and spirits are purified of sin.

If this is the judgment, the cause of the burning, it’s not threatening, but teaching reality to tell someone if they tithe (obey the law), they will not burn (they will be ready with God’s help to live surrounded by his glories).

——

When one just focuses on the burning without the context, it is reasonable to see it as threatening and even vindictive.  But if one understands the context as including the whole story of life, the journey from the natural, fallen state to the glorified state of heaven (including the Telestial Kingdom) where burning is not for the purpose of punishment, but purification of the filth and impurities we picked up along the way, then God saying those who tithe will not burn is about teaching the consequences of our choices, much the same as a parent telling their child if they don’t do their homework now, they won’t learn enough to pass their grade and they will have to go to summer school because the fact is in their world they have to learn in order to be viewed as an independent adult and they will just keep having to go to school, even repeating classes and grades until they do indeed learn all that is required because they won’t graduate if they don’t. (This would be in an ideal world where parents and educators took education seriously and everyone who had graduated had actually learned what had been taught and was capable of applying such.)  Using this context, if one refuses to learn how to obey the law, one won’t be able to develop the self control one needs to live sinlessly, which ability is needed to live in the glorified realms of heaven.

I just thought of another analogy that could be fun…heaven as the glorified heights of a mountain and we are born at sea level living in the swirls of densely polluted, but sufficiently oxygenated air that allows our undeveloped bodies to at least minimally function so we originally tend to feel more at home there than on the actually much nicer, bright and beautiful heights far above the accumulated filth of the plains.  If we haven’t worked at adapting ourselves to the new, purer environment, taking short trips up the mountain path following the instructions of our guide, if we somehow were able to be dropped off at the top (death as a gondola ride up a mountain rather than getting rowed across the river Styx), we would quickly be suffering from shortness of breath, our lungs struggling to get enough oxygen into our bodies….I wonder if they burn like they do when running or do they just feel tight and achy?  Would be great for my analogy if they burned.  :)   Let’s assume they burn…Paying tithing and obeying other laws of God in this analogy adapts our lungs and bodies to being capable of pulling in enough oxygen from the pure air so that when we come to live in the glorious mountains we feel at home, comfortable, more energetic than we ever did down at sea level.  But if we chose not to follow the laws, refuse to live the gospel which prepares us for such rarified realms, the result is every breath we feel we are burning and that is all we can think about, that struggle, lost to any of the beauties and richness around us, if remaining eventually dying due to our brains swelling with edema and other niceties (the unrighteous cannot endure the presence of God, even the lesser light of the Telestial, all must be purified of their sin…by repentance or spiritual burnings).

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44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

If i tell my child that if they do all their chores they will not get the belt tonight, to me that sounds threatening.  It’s a reasonable assumption to say It does sound like if they don’t do chores, they WILL get the belt.  

I think it helps, in trying to understand what that verse is saying about paying tithing, to find out who gets spared from being burned at the second coming compared with those who get burned.  The context points this out:

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22 And after that day, I, the Lord, will not hold any guilty that shall go with an open heart up to the land of Zion; for I, the Lord, require the hearts of the children of men.
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.
24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.   (Doctrine and Covenants 64:22–24)

As the context shows, it's about what is in our hearts.  It is the "proud and they that do wickedly", or in other words those that "remain in Babylon", that are the ones who are burned at his coming.  Doctrine and Covenants 1:16 gives us a pretty good description of Babylon:

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16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.  (Doctrine and Covenants 1:16)

The purpose of the burning is to cleanse and prepare the earth for the millennial reign of Christ upon the earth (Doctrine and Covenants 101:23-31).   There is no reason to imagine that the only people that will be spared to live in the millennium are those who paid their tithing (in fact, we have much scriptural evidence to the contrary).  There will be many many people who are not members of the Church who will live with Christ during the millennium, and they would have never paid any tithing.

This quote from Brigham Young is appropriate:

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It may be asked what I mean by the kingdom of God. The Church of Jesus Christ has been established now for many years, and the kingdom of God has got to be established, even the kingdom which will circumscribe all the kingdoms of this world. It will yet give laws to every nation that exists upon the earth. This is the kingdom that Daniel, the prophet, saw should be set up in the last days….  If the Latter-day Saints think, when the kingdom of God is established on the earth, that all the inhabitants of the earth will join the Church called Latter-day Saints, they are egregiously mistaken. I presume there will be as many sects and parties then as now. Still, when the kingdom of God triumphs, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, to the glory of the Father. Even the Jews will do it then: but will the Jews and Gentiles be obliged to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No; not by any means. Jesus said to his disciples, "in my Father's house are many mansions; were it not so I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there ye may be also." There are mansions in sufficient numbers to suit the different classes of mankind, and a variety will always exist to all eternity, requiring a classification and an arrangement into societies and communities in the many mansions which are in the Lord's house, and this will be for ever and ever.  (Brigham Young, December 23, 1866, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 275)

So it is not "pay your tithing or you will be burned", but rather, those who pay their tithing seem to have their heart not set on the things of Babylon, therefore they have a promise that they will not be burned.  And there will be many people who have never paid any tithing in their life that will not be burned as well.

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23 hours ago, Dario_M said:

My grievance...i have so manny of them. Letting it go is too hard on the moment. I just can't. I am crying a lot about it. Every day.

Maybe just give yourself permission to let go of one grievance?  Just one.  And if you were happier with it, you can always go back and reclaim it. 

But here's the thing:  We don't get to carry our grievances with us into Heaven. 

23 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Tomorrow when i go to church i will think about all these thinks. And ask god why all of this whas so naccesary for me to go trough. 

I really like Rain's suggestion: 

23 hours ago, Rain said:

The prophet's wife wrote about the questions we ask God.   She suggests changing our questions.  One way to possibly change your question might be "what do you want me to learn from this?" It might seem like the same question, but it's slightly different with a different focus.  

Asking the right question is a big part of getting the right answer, and I think what she describes is "asking the right question". 

In my opinion a shift in perception can change everything, and our role is to not put up any barriers that would prevent God from shifting our perception. 

Edited by manol
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10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah i rather stay in the same church. And offcourse thinks can get complicated when you have some problems with a churcv member.  But it is what it is. I dont wanna travel to far to go to another church location while i have on close to me. Problems are made to solve them. We are all inperfect and if we have the ebility to forgive one another that would be a really powerfull thing. 

As long as the bishop is okay with it and your records are there it is not an issue.  The problem with going to a ward when your membership records are at another ward is you can’t hold a calling (teach, help with music, anything else).  Since holding callings is a big part of being a member for most, most members go to the ward their records are in.

I have lived where I could walk to the chapel of another ward, but had to get in a car and drive to get to the ward I went to.  The drive was only a couple of minutes (it was when I was going to BYU in Utah, chapels everywhere), but I have always hated driving, so it made me a bit mad when we drove by the one I wanted to go to every Sunday.  Sometimes ward boundaries don’t make much sense.

Edited by Calm
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@manol maybe the only thing i need really to let go is the fact that my ex hates me and never wanna see me back. So i need to accept that i will never see him ever again for the rest of my life.

After 9 years of relationship we have injoyed togheter. It isnt easy. But i must admit that our relationship whas a disaster tough. But even then.. i miss the guy. 

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25 minutes ago, Calm said:

As long as the bishop is okay with it and your records are there it is not an issue.  The problem with going to a ward when your membership records are at another ward is you can’t hold a calling (teach, help with music, anything else).  Since holding callings is a big part of being a member for most, most members go to the ward their records are in.

But i dont want that. I wanna choose myself wich location i wanna go

I dont understand why my missionaries did not told me anything about that. 1 of them is from Idaho. You would think that he knows how it all works. 

Today the bishop whas also asking me for a little conversation. But i didn't wanted. 😣

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have lived where I could walk to the chapel of another ward, but had to get in a car and drive to get to the ward I went to.  The drive was only a couple of minutes (it was when I was going to BYU in Utah, chapels everywhere), but I have always hated driving, so it made me a bit mad when we drove by the one I wanted to go to every Sunday.  Sometimes ward boundaries don’t make much sense.

Oh my....i really hope i dont need to do that. 

I know that one missionaris ( one who i really liked) whas (just out of the blue) needed to go to another location. To Odivelas Lisbon. Super far away from where i am right now Miratejo. 10 milles or so (16 km).

So i whas really sad. 🤧 He did not even had the time to say goodbye to everyone. 😔

But it can also be more worse. He could also being send back to his home in Porto Rico. Then i will never see him back for sure. 😭

 

 

 

However.....i am not a missionaris. I dont think i need to go anywhere if i dont want to i find.  

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On 12/10/2022 at 4:51 PM, Dario_M said:

My grievance...i have so manny of them. Letting it go is too hard on the moment. I just can't. I am crying a lot about it. Every day. 

Especially these last 2 years where Hard. Cold. Mean. Lonely. Terifying. Upsetting. Stressfull. Nightmare. And now 2 years later i have lost so much thinks. Thinks like... friends family and partner a nice house. That i use to have. But i dont have that anymore. And i will never have that again. I wish i apriciated it more in the moment when i had it all. (I am thankfull that i at least still have my parents.🙏)

 

20 hours ago, Dario_M said:

@manol maybe the only thing i need really to let go is the fact that my ex hates me and never wanna see me back. So i need to accept that i will never see him ever again for the rest of my life.

After 9 years of relationship we have injoyed togheter. It isnt easy. But i must admit that our relationship whas a disaster tough. But even then.. i miss the guy. 


I believe there is a state of being where EVERYTHING that has happened to you, EVERYTHING you have ever done (right or wrong), and EVERYTHING you have experienced, simply becomes the PATH you took to where you are now.  It will have ALL worked together for your good, and ultimately there is NO loss and NO separation.

In the meantime, in my opinion, bring as much light and love as you can in the moment into whatever your situation may be.  Any tiny ray of light you can bring into the darkness is enormous.  Every time you choose at tiny little bit of light in the face of darkness, it is like you are pushing the rudder of a huge ship ever so slightly.  That tiny push on the rudder has already changed your trajectory. 

(In my opinion this is one of the reasons why we came to Earth, where the true nature of things is obscured by the Veil.  We could not struggle to choose light in the face of seemingly overwhelming darkness if we were perpetually in a place where darkness did not even exist.)

Edited by manol
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7 hours ago, manol said:

 


I believe there is a state of being where EVERYTHING that has happened to you, EVERYTHING you have ever done (right or wrong), and EVERYTHING you have experienced, simply becomes the PATH you took to where you are now.  It will have ALL worked together for your good, and ultimately there is NO loss and NO separation.

In the meantime, in my opinion, bring as much light and love as you can in the moment into whatever your situation may be.  Any tiny ray of light you can bring into the darkness is enormous.  Every time you choose at tiny little bit of light in the face of darkness, it is like you are pushing the rudder of a huge ship ever so slightly.  That tiny push on the rudder has already changed your trajectory. 

Yeah. If i go to church i feel light. Mostely. 

The holy spirit gives me some light. 

I must admit... you have a nice way of saying it if i read your whole post. 😁

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If the missionaries took you to this ward, chances are it is the one you would normally go to since they would know.  Chances are if it is the closest one to you, it is the one you are supposed to go to because that is the way it usually is.  Only when I was living on BYU campus with thousands of other students did I ever go to the slightly farther away ward.  The weird setups are usually in places were there are more members or where it is difficult to find property to have a church, they try to draw the boundaries so there are equal numbers in each ward.  

It is important to try and group the members together because that makes it easier for them to minister to each other.  Each individual is assigned a companion minister and then a couple of families or individuals and they are to become friends, visit with occasionally in some fashion, get to know well enough they can offer help in times of difficulty or even just because they want to.  Men are also often called to help give blessings to those they minister to.  If there is some sort of emergency, such as a fire or flood, ministers try to check on those they minister to in order to see if they are okay or need help.  They then tell their leader who tells the bishop if any ward member is in trouble.  

This would be harder to do if a ward was scattered all over even more than it needed to be.  The bishop and the Relief Society President also often visit a lot of families over the month and this would be harder the more the ward is spread out.  So church headquarters try to keep the wards small enough both in size and location so it is easy to keep track of all members and few, if any, get forgotten.  But the wards also need to be big enough to have enough members to fill all the necessary jobs and to ensure in a time of trouble there will likely be some that are okay who can help others.

 If you went to the building yourself and then missionaries came by your home because you asked them to come by, it may or may not be the one you would normally go to.  If you want to find out, you can check here by putting in your home address.  It is usually right, but not 100% since nothing is.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/meetinghouses/@0.000000,0.000000,2

Edited by Calm
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On 12/9/2022 at 4:06 PM, teddyaware said:

There are so many scriptural examples of the Lord using extreme fear as a means to motivate repentance that it would take many hours to locate and list them all. There are also a great many examples of how the fear of the Lord’s warning voice motivated lasting repentance and enduring dedication to the cause of Christ. In fact, I sincerely believe that if it wasn’t for all the dire, fear inspiring warnings of God found throughout the scriptures that there would be far fewer saved souls recorded on the pages of the Word of God

. For starters, try reading Mosiah 28, Alma 36, and Doctrine & Covenants Sections 1, 19, 29 if anyone doubts that what I’m saying is true. Now as to whether or not it’s only the Lord and his prophets who have the right to use fear as a motivator to positive change is another debate. But to deny that from the beginning the Lord and his prophets used fear as a motivator to cause souls to come unto him is tantamount to denying that the sun is shinning at noon on a clear summer day.

I take it that you think Elder Uchtdorf was wrong for saying the following?

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It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior. But that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father.

 

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On 12/9/2022 at 2:55 PM, Dario_M said:

Ooh really? My missionaries did not told me about this kind of information. So if you wanna share that with me that would be amazing. God bless you. 🙏

Here is something Joseph Smith said on the subject:

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All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it

- Joseph Smith

 

President Spencer W. Kimball also added that,

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The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin.

While you may have received the ordinance of the gift of the Holy Ghost, it seems clear from the words of the prophets that that is not enough for one to be able to deny it.  In the ordinance you were given the invitation to "receive the Holy Ghost".  The gift is that you are now capable of receiving it and always having it with you.  It doesn't mean that you have yet received it in a way that makes you capable of committing the "unpardonable sin".   As Joseph Smith notes, that would be equivalent to saying that the sun does not shine while he is looking at it.   If you rely on faith, then your knowledge is not enough to deny the holy ghost.  If you are capable of doubt, then that is not enough to deny the Holy Ghost.  You must know beyond faith and doubt as you know that the sun is shining while you look at it, and "have the heavens opened unto you" before you are even capable of committing the one and only unpardonable sin.  If you never commit that sin, then you CANT go to hell.   

The scriptures further explain further that it is more than a mere denial of the Holy Ghost, but it is open rebellion against Christ to the point of assenting to his death in crucifying's him unto themselves:

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They have no forgiveness, having denied the Only Begotten Son, having crucified him unto themselves, D&C 76:30–35.

Other passages speak of spilling innocent blood after having received the new and everlasting covenant of marriage:

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The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, which is shedding innocent blood after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, D&C 132:26–27.

I hope this gives you an idea of why the prophets tell us that it is "impossible" for most members to commit this sin. 

Think of it this way, if you are ever concerned, worried, or tinged with guilt that you may have committed the unpardonable sin, then take that as a good indicator that you have not committed such a sin.   Those who commit such a sin know exactly what they are doing and don't want to be with Christ. 

So...fear not, my friend!

Edited by pogi
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On 12/10/2022 at 8:58 AM, california boy said:

Fear is at the central core of the gospel.  It is what everything is built around. If you don't pay your tithing, you can't go to the temple. If you don't go to the temple then you can't make the necessary covenants.  If you don't make the necessary covenants, then you are not on the covenant path.  If you aren't on the covenant path, then you will not be with your family when you die.  If you are not with your family when you die, you will be miserable for eternity.

And that is not even addressing the fear of sin and how that will also lead to a miserable place.  So raise your hands.  who wants to be miserable for eternity?

On 12/10/2022 at 9:11 AM, InCognitus said:

That's not fear.  Those are simply the steps you must take if you want to participate in those specific objectives.

If you don't go to grade school, you can't learn to read.  If you don't learn to read, you can't graduate from high school.  If you want a good job you may need to go to college.  Does fear drive you to do those things?  Or do you do them because you desire the better result in the end?  

I agree with InCognitus here. 

I don't think these things are inherently based in fear but are natural consequences of eternal law.   It is like my experience in travel medicine where people became afraid when I explained the risks of certain behaviors and infectious diseases while traveling, when I was only trying to empower them to be safe and protected so they could have a more enjoyable trip without natural consequences.   

With this knowledge of risks, a leader could use it to empower people and turn them to the love of Christ in protecting them from harm, or they could use it to manipulate people to be obedient through fear of Christs judgment and wrath.  I have seen both used.   If I had to guess, it is those who have questioned and expressed doubt, or who have left the church that have seen fear as a form of manipulation by leaders more so than those who have consistently professed to be true blue through and through.   I think family and friends are often more guilty of using fear as manipulation than leaders. 

Edited by pogi
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On 12/9/2022 at 11:04 AM, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

It all depends on what kind of fear you're talking about. I'm not very articulate but I'll try to give it a go. I don't fear punishment for things that have done, I feel embarrassment, for lack of a better word, for the things that I have not done. I fear standing in front of all my ancestors and having them ask me why didn't I do their Temple work. I fear standing in front of Jesus Christ and not having an explanation for the lack of work that I have done. This isn't the same thing as fear of being punished for smoking cigarettes or committing adultery.

Edited by rodheadlee
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