I have become a Mormon 3 weeks ago.

[BlueDreams]

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

 

I don't wanna get excommunicated from the church if you don't mind. 🎭

 

I am not BSing annything i just don't wanna tell my church about this. And btw... some of them allready know that i am gay. Look how honest! Do you not see how honest i am actually? 👏

 

 

Sorry, bs-ing is my blunt nature coming out. What I mean by that isn't malicious, most people aren't. It's more that people omit details that may change the relationships around them. It doesn't (and mostly isn't) straight up lying or trying to be manipulative. It's usually fear or not wanting to face something just yet. 

 

Also excommunication isn't guaranteed. My mom made several sexual mistakes with really obvious results she couldn't hide (aka me and a few brothers)...but she was also never excommunicated.

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

My health is bad because something else. It has started from the moment i had the first time corona. So i assume it has something to do with that. More people have it and complain about the same exact kind of symptoms. I am not the only one. 

I could definitely believe that. Chronic health issues can really reduce life satisfaction and mental health. But within that experience, there's still ways to augment some peace and joy. That's the part I'm talking about.

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay but people don't need to know everything about me anyway. Some things are just private. 

Absolutely. No one needs graphic details. Just a general understanding of where you are and aren't with specific convenants you make. 

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I wanna wait with the priesterhood you see that right. 

I don't wanna take a step back from church. 

God bless. 

Makes sense, nor would I want you to if you don't. Like I mentioned, I would hope you do so as honestly as you can... it's just a better way to live, even if at first it's hard. 

 

With luv, 

BD

[BlueDreams]

56 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you very much. I will listen to the podcast. Sweet of you to post that special for me. 

Your welcome! It's been extremely helpful and I've experienced the Spirit multiple times while listening to it. So I hope it's that and more for you

[Dario_M]

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Also excommunication isn't guaranteed. My mom made several sexual mistakes with really obvious results she couldn't hide (aka me and a few brothers)...but she was also never excommunicated.

Ooh okay good. I am new in the church. I am a Mormon for....what would it be...? A bit longer then a month or so. It should be said if i allready get kicked out so early. 😩😭😔

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

But within that experience, there's still ways to augment some peace and joy. That's the part I'm talking about.

 

Oh sure and i do have those moments. It is not all sadness. Thank the dear lord for that. ✝️ lucky i have also happy moments and kind relieve. 

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Absolutely. No one needs graphic details. Just a general understanding of where you are and aren't with specific convenants you make.

I have been baptized and holy ghost it is prity clear what kind of convenants i have made. 

Bevore i am going to receive the priesterhood i wanna know exactly what kind of convenants i will make more then i allready have made. And what that means for me and my life. 

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

 

 

Makes sense, nor would I want you to if you don't. Like I mentioned, I would hope you do so as honestly as you can... it's just a better way to live, even if at first it's hard. 

 

With luv, 

BD

Thank you. Much love for you too. ❤

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

I have been baptized and holy ghost it is prity clear what kind of convenants i have made. 

Bevore i am going to receive the priesterhood i wanna know exactly what kind of convenants i will make more then i allready have made. And what that means for me and my life. 

Just for clarity, I meant more where you may be struggling to keep your covenants made when you were baptized. 

 

I think it's a really great Idea to know exactly what you are promising for the priesthood before receiving it. Makes perfect sense  

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

Just for clarity, I meant more where you may be struggling to keep your covenants made when you were baptized. 

 

I think it's a really great Idea to know exactly what you are promising for the priesthood before receiving it. Makes perfect sense  

Yeah that is a really good idea.  Because when i whas baptized i didn't really realised how serious it actually whas. And how difficult some commitments would be for me to follow For the long term. To follow those commitments for a short time is easy. But to follow them for a long time is hard. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Dario_M

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah that is a really good idea.  Because when i whas baptized i didn't really realised how serious it actually whas. And how difficult some commitments would be for me to follow For the long term. To follow those commitments for a short time is easy. But to follow them for a long time is hard. 

If it makes you feel any better, I think we all struggle with our covenants in one way or another. And I know that would probably go doubly when you're making this shift as an adult who had a life of your own before this. 

I would hope your bishop would meet you with patience and kindness on this. It's not an easy shift and it's not a straight forward one for you particularly. It would be weirder if you never made a mistake or never grappled with this balance, IMHO. 

 With luv,

BD

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

If it makes you feel any better, I think we all struggle with our covenants in one way or another. And I know that would probably go doubly when you're making this shift as an adult who had a life of your own before this. 

I would hope your bishop would meet you with patience and kindness on this. It's not an easy shift and it's not a straight forward one for you particularly. It would be weirder if you never made a mistake or never grappled with this balance, IMHO. 

 With luv,

BD

Agreed!

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

okay good. I am new in the church. I am a Mormon for....what would it be...? A bit longer then a month or so. It should be said if i allready get kicked out so

If you were living in my area, I would be shocked it you were excommunicated these days, but different areas do have different types of leaders who may react differently, so I don’t think anyone of us can promise you won’t be.  
 

When I was growing up 50 years ago, anyone engaging in homosexual behaviour (beyond just attraction and fantasizing) could have gotten excommunicated, though even then as long as they were not leaders expected to set examples for others or had not gone to the temple, they would most likely be put on probation or disfellowshipped.  Still, some were. But like I said, that was 50 years ago and now they excommunicate much less often for pretty much everything. I know of some who were not even excommunicated for adultery, though I have a friend that was as she was a leader.  She was rebaptized a year later with all her blessings restored. Excommunication does not mean being expelled from the community.  

I know of several sexually active gay individuals including my nephew who has been living with a man for 4 years now, who is not excommunicated.  He is not going to church though last I heard from his mom.  But this is in Utah and it may be different where you live.

——
There is, however, a very good chance if you did confess you lied to your bishop and were still sexually active, you would be told not to take the sacrament until you had committed to abide by the law of chastity and managed to do so for a certain amount of time.  

I am telling you this so you understand what may happen if you make the choice to confess.  I am not telling you to confess or not to confess, that is something I think you need to pray about and act on what you believe is the right thing to do for you. I don’t believe you are harming anyone else, but you may be hurting yourself as you probably don’t feel great about lying even if you think it is the thing you absolutely needed to do this time for yourself.  I do believe confession could bring new ways to grow spirituality and emotionally, but if you are dealing with Long Covid (what we call what it sounds like you have) I can understand why you may not feel it is the time to do so. 

——

But please know even if the bishop was more conservative than usual and felt it appropriate to excommunicate you, you would not be barred from attending any meetings. Because you haven’t received the priesthood or gone to the temple for your own endowment (something you wouldn’t get before a year of membership), excommunication would be essentially placing you back where you were before you were baptized as to what is expected of you. People’s attitudes towards you might change, of course, and some could be jerks unfortunately. On the other hand, for many the only thing that would matter was if you wanted to be a part of the community and they would love and want you there even if you were no longer seen as a baptized member. 

But I understand what being baptized and being able to take the sacrament means, how meaningful the experience can be.  I find it hard not to cry each time I get to take the sacrament with others at church these days, it is such a rare occurrence and I am so grateful to be able to do that.  Whether you choose to take the risk and confess or not, I am not judging you as good or bad. Only you with the help of the Spirit can know what you can live with and what you need.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Calm

[Dario_M]

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

If it makes you feel any better, I think we all struggle with our covenants in one way or another. And I know that would probably go doubly when you're making this shift as an adult who had a life of your own before this. 

I would hope your bishop would meet you with patience and kindness on this. It's not an easy shift and it's not a straight forward one for you particularly. It would be weirder if you never made a mistake or never grappled with this balance, IMHO. 

 With luv,

BD

That is true that is true. 😁 Well...lucky that the other commitmens are so easy. 

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

If you were living in my area, I would be shocked it you were excommunicated these days, but different areas do have different types of leaders who may react differently, so I don’t think anyone of us can promise you won’t be.  

Here in Portugal i don't know how strict they are. 

 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

 

When I was growing up 50 years ago, anyone engaging in homosexual behaviour (beyond just attraction and fantasizing) could have gotten excommunicated, though even then as long as they were not leaders expected to set examples for others or had not gone to the temple, they would most likely be put on probation or disfellowshipped. Still, some were. But like I said, that was 50 years ago

Lucky we are in a differend time now. 50 years later. 

 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

and now they excommunicate much less often for pretty much everything. I know of some who were not even excommunicated for adultery, though I have a friend that was as she was a leader.  She was rebaptized a year later with all her blessings restored. Excommunication does not mean being expelled from the community.  

 

Aaawh okay. Relieve.

I wanna go to the church you know. And have my sacrament. 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I know of several sexually active gay individuals including my nephew who has been living with a man for 4 years now, who is not excommunicated.  He is not going to church though last I heard from his mom.  But this is in Utah and it may be different where you live.

I have no idea also. But i believe that if the church in Utah is not even that strict anymore i guess it would be even be less strict here in Miratejo Portugal. I hope at least.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

——
There is, however, a very good chance if you did confess you lied to your bishop and were still sexually active, you would be told not to take the sacrament until you had committed to abide by the law of chastity and managed to do so for a certain amount of time.  

Excuse me? But that is not what i want. 🎭 I wanna have my sacrament. Every sunday. Everyone in the church get's the sacrament. It would be kinda humiliating if i am the only one that won't get the sacrament anymore. 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I am telling you this so you understand what may happen if you make the choice to confess.  I am not telling you to confess or not to confess, that is something I think you need to pray about and act on what you believe is the right thing to do for you. I don’t believe you are harming anyone else, but you may be hurting yourself as you probably don’t feel great about lying even if you think it is the thing you absolutely needed to do this time for yourself.  I do believe confession could bring new ways to grow spirituality and emotionally, but if you are dealing with Long Covid (what we call what it sounds like you have) I can understand why you may not feel it is the time to do so. 

Well..that i have long covid is something i nearly know for sure. I have never felt like this in my whole life. And it is going on for nearly 3 years now. 💀☠ It is just a curse....a curse, to feel like this you know. 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

——

But please know even if the bishop was more conservative than usual and felt it appropriate to excommunicate you, you would not be barred from attending any meetings. Because you haven’t received the priesthood or gone to the temple for your own endowment (something you wouldn’t get before a year of membership),

The endowment i don't wanna receive anyway. That is a bit to much. I wanna keep my life uhm....plane, and simple. No endowment for me please. And also no garments in the summer heat. 🥵

 

 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

excommunication would be essentially placing you back where you were before you were baptized as to what is expected of you. People’s attitudes towards you might change, of course, and some could be jerks unfortunately. On the other hand, for many the only thing that would matter was if you wanted to be a part of the community and they would love and want you there even if you were no longer seen as a baptized member. 

That is not really what i want. Btw...they have baptized me allready. They can't take that away from me. Allthough they think they can. 

But uhm.. excommunication is not really something i am seeking for anyway. 

 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

But I understand what being baptized and being able to take the sacrament means, how meaningful the experience can be.

 

Yes it is really meaningful for me. And the sacrament is also meaningful for me to take. Not that i cry when i take it or so.

If i cry in church it is a bad sign anyway. The people in my church know that now.💦

5 hours ago, Calm said:

 

 I find it hard not to cry each time I get to take the sacrament with others at church these days, it is such a rare occurrence and I am so grateful to be able to do that.  Whether you choose to take the risk and confess or not, I am not judging you as good or bad. Only you with the help of the Spirit can know what you can live with and what you need.

Yeah i need to pray about this. ✝️

Edited January 25, 2023 by Dario_M

[Orthodox Christian]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:08 PM, bluebell said:

In our religion, breaking the law of chastity almost always requires confession to the bishop to be fully repented of. Being gay is not a sin. But breaking the law of chastity is.

Thing is Dario, we are all supposed to examine ourselves before God. Our consciences and sinfulness and repent and confess to God throughout our lives. Repentance means turning back or turning away. It doesn't mean you repent until the next time you repeat the sin. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in someone who remains sinful, he cannot impart His grace in that situation. As Bluebell said we have to live by God's commandments.

[Orthodox Christian]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:17 PM, Dario_M said:

The bishop will not ask me what i did exactly on that moment i had broken the law of chastity right? 

I doubt your Bishop will need to know those details. Take heart Dario, God forgives and gives all the strength to overcome our failings. You are no greater sinner than anyone else, you just need to desire to turn around.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Orthodox Christian

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I doubt your Bishop will need to know those details. Take heart Dario, God forgives and gives all the strength to overcome our failings. You are no greater sinner than anyone else, you just need to desire to turn around.

Yeah but i allready have post how complicated my life is on the moment. The law of chestity is easy for you because you are straight. I am gay and if i wanna follow that commitment perfectly will means that i can not have sex ever again. And no chance of real love and happiness with another man.  I don't want that. Not on the moment. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Dario_M

[Orthodox Christian]

44 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah but i allready have post how complicated my life is on the moment. The law of chestity is easy for you because you are straight. I am gay and if i wanna follow that commitment perfectly will means that i can not have sex ever again. And no change of real love and happiness with another man.  I don't want that. Not on the moment. 

You assume that being chaste is easier for straight people than gay. Why? The law of chastity is for everyone, you are not a special case. It seems to me that you are unwilling to restrain yourself, and loneliness isn't an excuse for promiscuity. If your relationships are only of the brief sexual encounter type, then you will be lonely and unfulfilled. If you want to faithful to your church you have to walk the walk.

[Dario_M]

27 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

You assume that being chaste is easier for straight people than gay. Why? The law of chastity is for everyone, you are not a special case.

Yes i am. You are straight and for you there is at least hope that you will find your dream girl once and marry her in the temple. Then you will have sex again and injoy great love. 

Me!!! I don't have that hope. Because i may noy marry a nice decent man in the temple. The church won't allow that. That means that i am out of options. And need to suffer a life of being lonely forever with no hope for a nice partner or a marriege in the temple. I will never have sex again nor will i have the pleasure to experience great love with somebody (a man) And that will last forever till i die. 💀

That is a big differend excuse e moi. 

27 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

 

It seems to me that you are unwilling to restrain yourself, and loneliness isn't an excuse for promiscuity.

 

No and where have i said that anyway?? Where have i used my loneliness for promiscuity?

27 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

If your relationships are only of the brief sexual encounter type, then you will be lonely and unfulfilled. If you want to faithful to your church you have to walk the walk.

I don't have to do anything. And thank you for all your judgements. 

I am going to be honest here... people like you in my church i'd like too avoid as much as posible. 

God bless. ✝️

Edited January 25, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

You assume that being chaste is easier for straight people than gay. Why? The law of chastity is for everyone, you are not a special case. It seems to me that you are unwilling to restrain yourself, and loneliness isn't an excuse for promiscuity. If your relationships are only of the brief sexual encounter type, then you will be lonely and unfulfilled. If you want to faithful to your church you have to walk the walk.

Social is not meant for lecturing people on their personal lives, this board is not meant for lecturing people….

And while I agree difficulties in following the law of chastity is not attached to orientation (it is more likely increased or decreased by strength of sexual drive and other things), there is a fundamental difference in how one views the ‘big picture’ in that heterosexuals can at least dream they will find someone even if they don’t believe they will and they can look forward in the next life to a relationship that appeals to them, they generally know how they fit in the plan of salvation if they make certain choices…will they have the same desires or no desires at all or desires for the opposite sex, for example.  Homosexuals do not have the same level of information and thus it can be a greater leap of faith for them.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Calm

[Orthodox Christian]

3 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yes i am. You are straight and for you there is at least hope that you will find your dream girl once and marry her in the temple. Then you will have sex again and injoy great love. 

Me!!! I don't have that hope. Because i may noy marry a nice decent man in the temple. The church won't allow that. That means that i am out of options. And need to suffer a life of being lonely forever with no hope for a nice partner or a marriege in the temple. I will never have sex again nor will i have the pleasure to experience great love with somebody (a man) And that will last forever till i die. 💀

That is a big differend excuse e moi. 

 

No and where have i said that anyway?? Where have i used my loneliness for promiscuity?

I don't have to do anything. And thank you for all your judgements. 

I am going to be honest here... people like you in my church i'd like too avoid as much as posible. 

God bless. ✝️

Dario I am not judging you, what I have written, I have deduced from what you have posted. There are people here in your church who are urging you to speak to your Bishop, these people are experienced in your faith and they are concerned for you. Listen to them. 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Dario I am not judging you, what I have written, I have deduced from what you have posted. There are people here in your church who are urging you to speak to your Bishop, these people are experienced in your faith and they are concerned for you. Listen to them. 

Okay well we will see okay.

I do hope from you guys that you will not contact my ward here in Miratejo yourself about me please. Because i have said a bit to much information i am afrait. 🎭

And my name on my profile here is my real name.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dario_M

[Orthodox Christian]

33 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay well we will see okay.

I do hope from you guys that you will not contact my ward here in Miratejo yourself about me please. Because i have said a bit to much information i am afrait. 🎭

And my name on my profile here is my real name.  

 I am not LDS, so you can be assured that I wouldn't do that. However, this is a world wide forum, I guess in that sense you don't know who is reading these posts. But the people you have engaged with are decent people, I can't imagine any of them would do that either. However, what you have divulged here might be offensive to some faithful LDS, maybe you should be a little thoughtful about what you share on an open forum. BTW, have you looked at any of the  celibate gay sites on the net? They might help you to see a way forward. Many of them have a strong Christian faith but have chosen celibacy out of love for God. Just a thought. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Orthodox Christian

[Dario_M]

51 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

 I am not LDS, so you can be assured that I wouldn't do that. However, this is a world wide forum, I guess in that sense you don't know who is reading these posts. But the people you have engaged with are decent people, I can't imagine any of them would do that either. However, what you have divulged here might be offensive to some faithful LDS, maybe you should be a little thoughtful about what you share on an open forum. BTW, have you looked at any of the  celibate gay sites on the net? They might help you to see a way forward. Many of them have a strong Christian faith but have chosen celibacy out of love for God. Just a thought. 

Yeah well... it is my own fault though. I have shared a bit to much information. But i actually also don't think that somebody would really pick up the phone scourch for the number of my ward and really call my ward and get somebody there on the phone. Sombode like.....my bishop. And tell him everything that i have shared with you guys. I don't think so. 

Btw what does celibate means? What is that? It is for the first time that i heard this.

Well...i will google it anyway.

Edit. Ooh i see. Just follow the law of chastity. And have no sex at all or other forms of intimacy or love. 🎭 That is celibacy.

Well... like i said earlier...⬇️ 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

Dario, if you are concerned someone may find it, you could ask Nemesis, the owner of the board, to delete the threads where you shared your personal and you could change your alias and remove and public info.  Or you could just delete your current account and get permission to start a new one and just be more careful.

My guess is as long as you are not attempting to persuade anyone else to break church standards, no one posting on the board will be concerned enough to try and contact your leaders.  There might be someone who would if they thought you were causing harm to someone, but nothing you have shared is in that category.  I am thinking more along the lines of trying to persuade other members the Church is false or certain teachings are wrong.

However, I can’t speak to those who lurk, there are crazies out there who send death threats to kids because they don’t like a video, so anything can happen.

[Dario_M]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Dario, if you are concerned someone may find it, you could ask Nemesis, the owner of the board, to delete the threads where you shared your personal and you could change your alias and remove and public info.  Or you could just delete your current account and get permission to start a new one and just be more careful.

 

No no. I am not that scared. I mostely feel that people are responding positive on my posts on this board. And i am just sure that nobody would call my church. I mean come on... that would be really crazy right??? 😆😂🤣

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is as long as you are not attempting to persuade anyone else to break church standards, no one posting on the board will be concerned enough to try and contact your leaders.  There might be someone who would if they thought you were causing harm to someone, but nothing you have shared is in that category.  I am thinking more along the lines of trying to persuade other members the Church is false or certain teachings are wrong.

No i will never harm somebody no. Absolutely not. 

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, I can’t speak to those who lurk, there are crazies out there who send death threats to kids because they don’t like a video, so anything can happen.

No way really? Oh my...people are crazy these days. Oh dear lord. ✝️🙏

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

heterosexuals can at least dream they will find someone even if they don’t believe they will and they can look forward in the next life to a relationship that appeals to them, they generally know how they fit in the plan of salvation if they make certain choices…will they have the same desires or no desires at all or desires for the opposite sex, for example.  Homosexuals do not have the same level of information and thus it can be a greater leap of faith for them.

Well said.  Imo this is a HUGE difference in perception that affects the lives of our non-heterosexual brothers and sisters.

I believe that before we came to Earth we made fully informed decisions about what the big challenges in our lives would be.  I have nothing but respect for those who chose major challenges such as same-sex attraction and chronic health conditions and severely abusive childhoods and such, challenges which I was obviously unwilling to accept.  

It is my opinion that the current teachings on the Plan of Salvation do not present the complete picture, and that NOBODY gets cheated.  Imo the principle that God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons is a more fundamental truth than the specific current teachings on the Plan of Salvation. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by manol

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Well said.  Imo this is a HUGE difference in perception that affects the lives of our non-heterosexual brothers and sisters.

I believe that before we came to Earth we made fully informed decisions about what the big challenges in our lives would be.  I have nothing but respect for those who chose major challenges such as same-sex attraction and chronic health conditions and severely abusive childhoods and such, challenges which I was obviously unwilling to accept.  

It is my opinion that the current teachings on the Plan of Salvation do not present the complete picture, and that NOBODY gets cheated.  Imo the principle that God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons is a more fundamental truth than the specific current teachings on the Plan of Salvation. 

I disagree with this theory. I can’t imagine that anybody would agree in the pre- world to come down here and be a child molester.or a mass shooter. 
 

I do agree however that God is fair. Far more fair than we are. I would never ask any child of mine to be exposed to the level of rejection that the church people demonstrate towards homosexual’s. I would however invite my child to maintain a relationship with God who loves them perfectly. As they are.

Back to the topic, I’m sure nobody’s going to report you to your bishop. That said, if somebody lives in your area and recognizes you, it’s already been established here on this site that people believe in reporting to bishops and stake presidents other peoples serious sins . 

Edited January 26, 2023 by MustardSeed

[manol]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I disagree with this theory.

You may well be right - this is a really good point you make:

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t imagine that anybody would agree in the pre- world to come down here and be a child molester.or a mass shooter.

I think we accept in advance what our challenges will be, but I do not think we decide in advance which choice we will make when they come along. So I don't think perpetrators choose to commit an atrocity before coming to earth, but I think they choose challenges which present that possibility. 

So then you might well ask, why would anyone choose challenges which would put them in the position of possibly becoming a perpetrator?  And that would be a very good question, which I don't think has a satisfactory answer that is compatible with an LDS paradigm.  So I probably shouldn't have brought up the concept of choosing one's challenges before birth, at least not in a "Social Hall" thread.  I didn't think through how controversial and objectionable that might be.

 

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I do agree however that God is fair. Far more fair than we are.

And that's plenty enough common ground for me!

I am confident that whatever the truth may be, it is consistent with a God who is good and fair and no respecter of persons... and realistically I'm almost certainly mistaken about the details of how that all plays out. 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by manol