The Church as the 5th Largest Private Landholder in U.S.

[gav]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

The Church's portfolio managers agree with you, and I tend to agree as well.

The point is that there are two types of assets: real assets and financial assets. Real assets are tangible things, such as farms, factories, machineries, and shopping malls. They have real value.

Financial assets aren't real. A bond is a loan to a corporation or to a government. A stock certificate is a claim on a percentage of a company's future profits. If the economy hums along, these things have value.

But if we go into some doomsday economic fall, 85% of of the Church's assets will be worthless, right when they are needed the most. As you said earlier, "money and other bearer assets will likely be worthless in the deepest trough of that transition."

If you doubled your financial assets in previous upturns you can afford to lose close to 50% in a downturn before you pull out. There will be time to switch assets before financial assets are worthless. Land etc. may come at bargain prices then too. Get the growth, buy bargain assets. Have enough experience already in those assets to scale rapidly and effectively. 

[gav]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

I never meant to imply CharityWatch monitors churches. I merely cited them as an independent source that agrees "it is vital that charities do not hoard the funds that they raise."

The same principle applies to churches for the same reasons.

Is "hoarding" or "investing well" or "investing for a future downturn" the same thing? Is one more desirable than any of the others if they do differ?

Can part of said investment be to buy productive land, process produce and distribute said produce globally at scale and on a charitable basis. Does this strategy not equip said charity with a war chest and institutional experience to scale such operations when the rainy day comes?

Our theology after all is millenarist and expecting that "Babylon (the powers and systems of this world) will fall" causing great difficulties during to the winding up of this worlds affairs and that that will be a process and not an event.  

Since the Church of Jesus Christ has a rather different rainy day that it is preparing for, should it not follow a slightly different approach than  a regular charity?

Edited December 9, 2022 by gav

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, gav said:

... Since the Church of Jesus Christ has a rather different rainy day that it is preparing for, should it not follow a slightly different approach than  a regular charity?

Yes, but the detractors of the Church of Jesus Christ don't put much stock in that "rather different rainy day": To them, the only thing that matters is meeting people's temporal needs in the here-and-now and in the immediate future.

[gav]

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes, but the detractors of the Church of Jesus Christ don't put much stock in that "rather different rainy day": To them, the only thing that matters is meeting people's temporal needs in the here-and-now and in the immediate future.

Come to Africa, see firsthand what here-and-now and subsistence mentality produces. Everytime there is a drought or other downturn or calamity then humanitarian an aid agencies scramble. These agencies have no incentive to change the status quo since it is their meal ticket. "Professional" agency workers, the "aid bureaucrats" are enough to put one off charities and render you cynical for life.

[Pyreaux]

I bet there were naysayers when Joseph of Egypt was hoarding grain for seven years. I guess famines, wars, and plagues are just things of the past.

All wise stock investors and traders like the Church would likely have Automatic Stoploss settings in place in event of something catastrophic happening to the stock. If they were even wiser, they can Short their stocks to hedge or even make lots of money as the stocks plunge.  

Edited December 9, 2022 by Pyreaux

[CA Steve]

If you can't tear down the great and spacious building(s) you might as well buy them.

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

It's wonderful that the Church donated $10 million to a charity. 

If they followed Harvard University's example and set the goal of giving away 5% of the principle in their endowment on an annual basis, they could give deserving causes $10 million a day, twice a day, every workday of the year, into perpetuity.

That only works if the endowment goes up to offset the reductions.  If the market is flat or down for a sustained period of time, one risks drying up the endowment.

Fun fact about selling assets too early.    Bill Gates is worth about 100 billion dollars.  He has given away over 50 billion dollars to charity.  Had Bill Gates never sold any of his stock to this day, he would be worth over 500 billion. At the high point of Microsoft stock, it would have been over 700 billion.   Hundreds of billions of dollars he was not able to realize by selling assets too soon thus a lot less he could give away.   Sell very slowly if one has to sell. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

I never meant to imply CharityWatch monitors churches. I merely cited them as an independent source that agrees "it is vital that charities do not hoard the funds that they raise."

The same principle applies to churches for the same reasons.

That is not really comparable. Charities literally have no other purpose than social help. And yeah, downgrading a charity holding funds is fair.

I saw a weird case a while back. During the BLM marches there was a small charity involved in (iirc) giving legal help to people in certain situations. Due to news coverage of an event they suddenly got national recognition and they were getting a huge amount of donations. A month later people were complaining and asking where all the money went. The problem is the charity couldn’t scale quickly. They hired more lawyers and were hiring more (takes time) but to get enough to use all the money donated would have meant they would have had to cut staff in about a year unless donations stayed at the same level which seemed unlikely. Nothing came of it.

Charitable giving is a strange thing and is often irrational. I remember on 9/11 there a was a run by many to give blood which was kind of ridiculous. There wasn’t much blood needed for the event and they threatened to overload the system. I get the psychological desire to do something to help. Anything to help but it led to a short term glut of blood and a longer term shortage later.

That being said I don’t know what the Church is going to do with that money.

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

That only works if the endowment goes up to offset the reductions.  If the market is flat or down for a sustained period of time, one risks drying up the endowment.

Fun fact about selling assets too early.    Bill Gates is worth about 100 billion dollars.  He has given away over 50 billion dollars to charity.  Had Bill Gates never sold any of his stock to this day, he would be worth over 500 billion. At the high point of Microsoft stock, it would have been over 700 billion.   Hundreds of billions of dollars he was not able to realize by selling assets too soon thus a lot less he could give away.   Sell very slowly if one has to sell. 

This kind of thinking is a little toxic. It is often a cover for greed. I COULD give now but if I wait I might be able to give a whole lot more later. It is like the story of the guy whose barns couldn’t hold all his stuff so he built bigger ones and then died.

[california boy]

I personally have no problem with the Church amassing its billions in stock and other investments.  It is their money, they can do with it what they feel is best.  

I think what is happening is people need to shift their expectations they might have of the Church as a humanitarian organization when in fact it is more focused on an investment portfolio.   All this publicity is just letting people become better informed about the focus of the Church.  

I also don't think the LDS Church is alone in not focusing on humanitarian services.  I think many religious organizations have moved away from humanitarian type activities. though there are some that still keep that focus.  If that is an important part of a persons religious experience, they should seek out those churches that do focus more on charity work.

Does anyone thing that perhaps the shift away from charity maybe one of the reasons why religion doesn't attract the numbers it once did?  Just wondering.  There are certainly many worthwhile organizations that have charity as their main focus that people get involved in.  I personally know people who have left religion but regularly help with "Helping Hands" and other type of charities.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

That only works if the endowment goes up to offset the reductions.  If the market is flat or down for a sustained period of time, one risks drying up the endowment.

Fun fact about selling assets too early.    Bill Gates is worth about 100 billion dollars.  He has given away over 50 billion dollars to charity.  Had Bill Gates never sold any of his stock to this day, he would be worth over 500 billion. At the high point of Microsoft stock, it would have been over 700 billion.   Hundreds of billions of dollars he was not able to realize by selling assets too soon thus a lot less he could give away.   Sell very slowly if one has to sell. 

But you need to take into account the value of intervening to help earlier…for example, helping a child be prepared for school as a kindergartner could be a lot more effective overall than waiting until they are in high school and instead of them having been able to make use of their early learning to receive a good education, they struggled all those years and now not only need help with learning, but also the bad self image and bad habits they got into due to frustration at doing poorly and hopelessness etc.  Wait to intervene until they are an adult and perhaps you are now having to deal with not only illiteracy, but homelessness or criminal behaviour due to not being able to get a job that pays enough.  Wait until the next generation or two and instead of a relatively independent educated extended family, you have quite a few more doing poorly in school and life as a predictor of success in school and work is the education level of parents.

There needs to be a balance between keeping investments up so help can be provided consistently over the long term and investing early in people to avoid higher costs for the same level of effective help if one waits.

I am not suggesting the Church is operating on a penny wise, pound foolish approach, just pointing out potential issues it needs to pay attention to.  I don’t think we have enough information about what is anticipated to be needed in the future to make any accurate judgments about the appropriateness of the Church’s decisions.  I think it comes down to trust.  I know the Church has had experience with altering local economies for the worst by throwing off balances and they altered for the better how they did things based on that bad outcome, though I can’t remember the specific detail…remember just enough to know that it was something of a parallel to the native fabric industry being destroyed in Kenya because of the secondhand clothing industry providing very cheap and abundant clothes from donations to charities…and I am also assuming the Church is still learning the most effective ways to help without hurting and adjusting their efforts accordingly.  I think this is one of the reasons it chooses to work with established charities rather than setting up as ‘competition’.  Not only does it save money, it ensures the continuing health of other charities rather than weakening them (people tend to donate to the more noticeable, larger charities so smaller charities may lose donations when others move into the same area, meaning those they serve may end up going without, the charity may close its doors and then if the larger one moves on to its next project, at the end there is no one left to fill an established need).  According to the reports of the Church, the rate of humanitarian work is going up dramatically each year, so my guess is the Church built up a significant reservoir and is now prudently increasing its efforts so it doesn’t tip the balance the wrong way,  I predict we will see more and more given each year until we reach a point where the reservoir stays about the same every year, outgoing donations equaling incoming.  Growth in giving out will necessarily be limited by the limits of the infrastructure of the charitable arm of the Church as trained professionals as well as volunteers will be needed to access needs and access the effectiveness of local and other charities’ efforts as well as negotiate how to work together and then access early results before committing more and all that takes time to get the people and build the infrastructure and make it work the right way.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

In my ward there was a well loved man that has since died from breast cancer. And our ward building is very very old, it's a two story and the nursery is downstairs! Well while this man was alive during the summer a few years ago it got horribly hot and either the air conditioning broke or they didn't have one and this gentlemen started wearing shorts and a t-shirt and a tie to make a point that the church needed to get air conditioning. But his efforts went without any action and he bought one with his own money. This is what I mean about the members getting the shaft. I've had experiences throughout the years as well with things similar. Why won't the church take better care of the members?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

In my ward there was a well loved man that has since died from breast cancer. And our ward building is very very old, it's a two story and the nursery is downstairs! Well while this man was alive during the summer a few years ago it got horribly hot and either the air conditioning broke or they didn't have one and this gentlemen started wearing shorts and a t-shirt and a tie to make a point that the church needed to get air conditioning. But his efforts went without any action and he bought one with his own money. This is what I mean about the members getting the shaft. I've had experiences throughout the years as well with things similar. Why won't the church take better care of the members?

I understand it may look like that but they have guidelines and bureaucracy to contend with, AND central air for an old building can be difficult with the electric requirements today, and for all we know, maybe the building will be replaced soon anyway.

Of course you understand that one cannot renovate a building because one person is uncomfortable during a "hot spell".

It seems that others probably were not affected as much by the heat compared to the elderly man.

I know! I do not tolerate heat or cold as well, now that I am old either!

Edited December 10, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Kenngo1969]

I just wish the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owned more land in Jackson County MO.  All in good time, I suppose.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I understand it may look like that but they have guidelines and bureaucracy to contend with, AND central air for an old building can be difficult with the electric requirements today, and for all we know, maybe the building will be replaced soon anyway.

Of course you understand that one cannot renovate a building because one person is uncomfortable during a "hot spell".

It seems that others probably were not affected as much by the heat compared to the elderly man.

I know! I do not tolerate heat or cold as well, now that I am old either!

He wasn't elderly, and he had the money so I guess that's how he solved it. He was great member of the church, welcomed my family in 2018 by stopping by with some ice cream bars, and it wasn't his calling. He was just that guy. I wasn't in the ward when he wore the shorts etc. It was told by his wife or someone, can't remember. Maybe at his funeral.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

He wasn't elderly, and he had the money so I guess that's how he solved it. He was great member of the church, welcomed my family in 2018 by stopping by with some ice cream bars, and it wasn't his calling. He was just that guy. I wasn't in the ward when he wore the shorts etc. It was told by his wife or someone, can't remember. Maybe at his funeral.

Plus 1

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

22 hours ago, Analytics said:

they could give deserving causes $10 million a day, twice a day, every workday of the year, into perpetuity.

I like your optimistic hopeful vision of the church's future.  I also would like to believe that my church in the future will never be poorer than today, only more wealthy.

However, you lose major points for believing the word "hoarding" is valid or useful in any sort of discussion like we're having now.  No matter how many independent experts use the term.  The word is merely a rhetorical weapon meant to make the accused look evil and miserly.

Honestly.  It never fails to amaze me how many otherwise smart, even wise people, fall prey to this word and all it entails.  

Edited December 10, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[mfbukowski]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:13 PM, mrmarklin said:

But I think it pales beside the holdings of the Catholic Church. 

Yeah but we don't have relics.

Well maybe living ones, but you know what I mean. 😜

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:13 PM, mrmarklin said:

But I think it pales beside the holdings of the Catholic Church

So are you going to congratulate us on our wise stewardship and for saving up for a rainy day? 😉

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah but we don't have relics.

Well maybe living ones, but you know what I mean. 😜

Wait, the seerstone isn’t a relic?

Oh……..I guess I will throw out my overcomplicated plan to steal it then. Shame. I was going to start building my team of 11 next week. Hoped to have some wacky hijinks and then steal the relic and channel its power to turn myself into a God.

Edited December 11, 2022 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

So are you going to congratulate us on our wise stewardship and for saving up for a rainy day? 😉

As the last living heir of the Knights Templar I can’t drum up much enthusiasm for it. Sorry.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wait, the seerstone isn’t a relic?

Oh……..I guess I will throw out my overcomplicated plan to steal it then. Shame. I was going to start building my team of 11 next week. Hoped to have some wacky hijinks and then steal the relic and channel its power to turn myself into a God.

Dang.

Sounds like a brilliant plan! What do I have to do to get in on some of that action?

[rodheadlee]

I am proud and happy that the church is doing this.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Dang.

Sounds like a brilliant plan! What do I have to do to get in on some of that action?

We had an opening for someone to run around inside with an air horn declaring that the Second Coming is in five minutes to distract everyone but seems kind of pointless now.

[Stargazer]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:36 PM, Analytics said:

Saving money every year "to prepare for any possible future needs" isn't a plan. It is hoarding.

I guess I'm a hoarder, too.