Lesson 12 - Our Need for Spiritual Rebirth

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

How is it possible for an abjectly evil son of perdition to atone for his own sins when the scriptures amply testify that the only being who can make an atonement for sin is the perfectly holy, infinite and eternal Son of God? And since the scriptures further testify that the sons of perdition suffer in that state of existence forever, it appears certain that no amount of suffering on their part is able to satisfy the demands of divine justice. Since their suffering goes on forever, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that the sons of perdition suffer for their sins but they are never able to atone for their own sins? And if it were possible for a son of perdition to atone for his own sins, wouldn’t that mean, in contradiction to scripture, that men can indeed be saved by their own works? 

Ah, yes, I misspoke, in my head I had falsely equated "suffering for sin" with "atoning for sin". Christ Atoned by suffering so we didn't have to due to his suffering, but Atonement absolves other consequences of sin that suffering won't cover. I meant they must "suffer" for their own sins. I know the sons of perdition are not redeemed of guilt even after they suffer in full.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Is this the LDS version of Dante’s Divine Comedy?

More or less, Sheol and the Shamayim are layered like an onion or a temple, however its 3 layers, like ancient Solomon's temple and First Enoch, and 2 Corinthians 12:1-4; not 7 layers like later Harod's temple, Second Enoch, the Talmud, and the Divine Comedy.

[marineland]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:35 PM, InCognitus said:

The sons of perdition are the only ones cast into the lake of fire of which the "second death shall have any power" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:37).

What is the second death of Revelation 20:6?

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

What is the second death of Revelation 20:6?

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

I'm not sure why this is a question.  It should be obvious.  Those in the first resurrection have no part at all in the "second death".   This is a comparison, illustrating the extremes on both sides of the scale.  It's like the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, where Jesus set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on the left, showing the two extremes of righteousness and wickedness, even though various other Bible passages make it clear that there are varying degrees of salvation or damnation in between those two extremes (we have discussed this before, here).  The righteous extreme is on the right, and for them the "second death hath no power" over them.  And on the opposite extreme, for the most wicked on the left, they are the "only ones on whom the second death shall have any power... the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath" (D&C 76:37-38).  The "power" of the second death is eternal for the sons of perdition, and for the most righteous it has "no power".  

But as we discussed before, there are varying degrees of salvation in between these two extremes, and there are those who suffer a temporary second death because they will be "redeemed in the due time of the Lord".  For those who inherit the telestial kingdom, the Lord has the power of their salvation and their redemption from the grasp of the second death (in his own due time), and they will not be left in that awful state.

[marineland]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:39 PM, InCognitus said:

For those who inherit the telestial kingdom, the Lord has the power of their salvation and their redemption from the grasp of the second death (in his own due time), and they will not be left in that awful state.

Even if they continue in their sins and do not repent?

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Even if they continue in their sins and do not repent?

Everyone (except those who commit the unpardonable sin) will repent eventually, and every knee shall bow, even those going to the telestial kingdom.  They even acknowledge the Holy Spirit.