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Lesson 12 - Our Need for Spiritual Rebirth


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I'm into lesson 12 of the manual (Religion 275) now and had a question.

Page 55

Introduction

From the Book of Mormon we learn that "the natural man is an enemy to God" (Mosiah 3:19). In this lesson, 
students are instructed that through repenting and exercising faith in Jesus Christ, we can overcome the 
natural man, be "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart. This change is necessary to enter 
the kingdom of God.

Page 56

(Make sure students understand this truth: Only by becoming new creatures in Christ can we inherit the 
kingdom of God.)

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their 
sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

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58 minutes ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 12 of the manual (Religion 275) now and had a question.

Page 55

Introduction

From the Book of Mormon we learn that "the natural man is an enemy to God" (Mosiah 3:19). In this lesson, 
students are instructed that through repenting and exercising faith in Jesus Christ, we can overcome the 
natural man, be "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart. This change is necessary to enter 
the kingdom of God.

Page 56

(Make sure students understand this truth: Only by becoming new creatures in Christ can we inherit the 
kingdom of God.)

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their 
sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

If I understand you, correctly the question should be not if we are in A Kingdom, but WHICH kingdom.

All inherit a Kingdom, it is said that if a mortal could see what the lowest of low kingdoms could offer, one would commit suicide just to get there.

LDS beliefs are often said to involve universal "salvation"

"EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ" I guess when you actually see his glory there is almost no other reasonable answer 

Remember there are missionaries on the other side and if you don't get it here you will see the truth on the other side.

One CAN repent on the other side but it is said to be harder

Edited by mfbukowski
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49 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

FWIW, I believe the kingdom of God includes all realms of God's kingdom, namely the telestial and terrestrial and celestial realms of heaven.  And I would say those who later inherit the telestial realm of heaven do so as they overcome the 
natural man, are "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart 
even though they don't get to that point until they are suffering for their own sins while in spirit prison.  The "born again" process for them would not necessarily mean they had been "baptized" at some time; however, because by paying the penalty for their own sins they would be cleansed and thus become a new creature (man or woman). 

Yep.  I didn't see this, 2 for 2! :)

And remember we can be baptized posthumously, in the temple by proxy 

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, marineland said:

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their 

sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

Read the last few paragraphs of your own link

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1 hour ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 12 of the manual (Religion 275) now and had a question.

Page 55

Introduction

From the Book of Mormon we learn that "the natural man is an enemy to God" (Mosiah 3:19). In this lesson, students are instructed that through repenting and exercising faith in Jesus Christ, we can overcome the natural man, be "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart. This change is necessary to enter  the kingdom of God.

Page 56

(Make sure students understand this truth: Only by becoming new creatures in Christ can we inherit the kingdom of God.)

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

Inasmuch as "kingdom of God" is synonymous with "Celestial Kingdom," then I think the answer is yes.

See, e.g.,D&C 76:79:

Quote

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

And D&C 137:

Quote

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
...

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Note here that verse 1 speaks of the "celestial kingdom of God," which may indicate that "kingdom of God" can have a more expansive application (not unlike how "salvation" can refer to the reward given to all except those consigned to Outer Darkness).

And here:

Quote
  • “Highest among the kingdoms of glory hereafter is the celestial kingdom. It is the kingdom of God, the glory thereof being typified by the sun in the firmament. (D. & C. 76:50–70, 92–96; 1 Cor. 15:39–42.) …

    “… By entering the gate of repentance and baptism candidates find themselves on the strait and narrow path leading to the celestial kingdom. By devotion and faithfulness, by enduring to the end in righteousness and obedience, it is then possible to merit a celestial reward. (2 Ne. 31:17–21.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 116).

And here:

Quote

Kingdom of God: In Heaven

Author: PACE, GEORGE W.

The kingdom of God in heaven is the place where God lives. It is a Celestial Kingdom, organized under "the divinely ordained system of government and dominion in all matters, temporal and spiritual" (JC, p. 789). It is a purposeful state of existence, composed of intellectual and physical effort. It is a place of perfect order, eternal progression, everlasting family, and a fulness of joy.

The Savior taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father which art in heaven,…Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6:9-10). The kingdom of God is set up on the earth to prepare for the kingdom of God in heaven (D&C 65:5-6). The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that this earth shall be "sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory,…that bodies who are of the Celestial Kingdom may possess it forever and ever" (D&C 88:17-20). When this occurs, this glorified celestial earth will become the kingdom of heaven for the Saints who have lived upon it, and then shall the meek and the righteous inherit it (Matt. 5:5; D&C 88:25-26;130:9; TPJS, p. 181).

The purpose of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to help prepare its members to live forever in the kingdom of God in heaven.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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4 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:
Quote

Inasmuch as "kingdom of God" is synonymous with "Celestial Kingdom," then I think the answer is yes.

From that quote you provided:  The kingdom of God is set up on the earth to prepare for the kingdom of God in heaven (D&C 65:5-6)

Apparently, based on that quote, the kingdom of God isn't always synonymous with "Celestial Kingdom" because the kingdom of God that is set up on the earth at this time to prepare for the kingdom of God in heaven isn't the "Celestial Kingdom".

I agree with you.  I just now revised my post to include the following (in reference to D&C 137:1) : "Note here that verse 1 speaks of the 'celestial kingdom of God,' which may indicate that 'kingdom of God' can have a more expansive application (not unlike how 'salvation' can refer to the reward given to all except those consigned to Outer Darkness)."

Also, I began my original comment with "Inasmuch," which I intended to use for its meaning of "to the extent that {'kingdom of God' is synonymous with 'Celestial Kingdom'...}."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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1 hour ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 12 of the manual (Religion 275) now and had a question.

Page 55

Introduction

From the Book of Mormon we learn that "the natural man is an enemy to God" (Mosiah 3:19). In this lesson, 
students are instructed that through repenting and exercising faith in Jesus Christ, we can overcome the 
natural man, be "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart. This change is necessary to enter 
the kingdom of God.

Page 56

(Make sure students understand this truth: Only by becoming new creatures in Christ can we inherit the 
kingdom of God.)

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their 
sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

"So far, so good."

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Our Latter-day Saint theology asserts that we will inhabit a Kingdom according to what were are willing/comfortable/able to bear (see D&C 88:22-24 and 33).

If I am willing and able to abide the societal structure/rules/nature of the Celestial Kingdom then I would happily join that society of beings. If that is a bit too much for me, then perhaps I'd be willing and able to abide the societal structure/rules/nature of the Terrestrial Kingdom and so I would be most happy there (and not the Celestial Kingdom). If I'm not able or willing to meet the Terrestrial requirements then I'll be most happy in the Telestial Kingdom. If not even tolerate that... well, that is by far and away a very rare exception and so scarcely worth mentioning.

While justice and law still have their place in our judgment, after all is said and done, our end state is based on who we have become. If we desire the Celestial Kingdom, then Christ and the Atonement is absolutely necessary for us to become one would is able and willing to abide a Celestial society. Put another way, God affords us opportunity to go where we'll be most happy based on who we are.

Edited by Nofear
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37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Inasmuch as "kingdom of God" is synonymous with "Celestial Kingdom," then I think the answer is yes.

See, e.g.,D&C 76:79:

And D&C 137:

Note here that verse 1 speaks of the "celestial kingdom of God," which may indicate that "kingdom of God" can have a more expansive application (not unlike how "salvation" can refer to the reward given to all except those consigned to Outer Darkness).

And here:

And here:

Thanks,

-Smac

Read the last 2 or 3 paragraphs in the link in the OP.

 

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9 hours ago, Ambrosia said:

FWIW, I believe the kingdom of God includes all realms of God's kingdom, namely the telestial and terrestrial and celestial realms of heaven.  And I would say those who later inherit the telestial realm of heaven do so as they overcome the 
natural man, are "born again," and experience a mighty change of heart 
even though they don't get to that point until they are suffering for their own sins while in spirit prison.  The "born again" process for them would not necessarily mean they had been "baptized" at some time; however, because by paying the penalty for their own sins they would be cleansed and thus become a new creature (man or woman). 

If those who inherit the telestial kingdom of glory can atone for their own sins by suffering, why does Doctrine and Covenants 138 testify that before they can obtain that kingdom they must first be “washed clean” (an obvious allusion to the cleansing power of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ)? And does it make sense that fallen mortals can atone for their own sins when the Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of God himself can atone for the sins of fallen man?

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

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10 hours ago, marineland said:

 

Do the definitions for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants (those who continued in their 
sins and did not repent / those who rejected the gospel) mean they failed to inherit the kingdom of God?

Where Will I Go After This Life?
 

Yes, Nicodemus. Only those born again of water and Spirit will see the Kingdom of God. Baptisms of water and fire are the gate to that celestial kingdom. They cannot inherit that kingdom if they never desired to become an heir and be adopted by Christ as a son of God to join him as a co-heir, and receive of all his Father has, such as that kingdom. The Holy City will come down, shaped like a cube with no temple inside, because it is itself a giant cubed Holy of Holies, only born again, assimilated, sanctified priest-kings can enter a Holy of Holies.

Image result for Borg Cube Meme

Edited by Pyreaux
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12 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

 

Yes, Nicodemus. Only those born again of water and Spirit will see the Kingdom of God. Baptisms of water and fire are the gate to that celestial kingdom. They cannot inherit that kingdom if they never desired to become an heir and be adopted by Christ as a son of God to join him as a co-heir, and receive of all his Father has, such as that kingdom. The Holy City will come down, shaped like a cube with no temple inside, because it is itself a giant cubed Holy of Holies, only born again, assimilated, sanctified priest-kings can enter a Holy of Holies.

Image result for Borg Cube Meme

You appear to be indicating that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will enter those realms of glory without first accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, when Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138 clearly testify otherwise. But rather than cut and paste the pertinent verses in order to convince you that you’re wrong, I encourage you to read and carefully ponder these two sections yourself because I wouldn’t want to rob you of the joy of discovering the critically important truths you’ll find on your own.

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2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

You appear to be indicating that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will enter those realms of glory without first accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, when Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138 clearly testify otherwise. But rather than cut and paste the pertinent verses in order to convince you that you’re wrong, I encourage you to read and carefully ponder these two sections yourself because I wouldn’t want to rob you of the joy of discovering the critically important truths you’ll find on your own.

Yes, they "accept" Christ, but they still refuse to accept a baptism, which is why they aren't in the Celestial Kingdom. Correct? So, the original question is phrased just as Jesus told Nicodemus, they won't see the "kingdom of God", i.e., the Celestial Kingdom, if they are not born of water a second time, i.e., are not baptized. If you are not sanctified, Christ cannot bring you into the Father's presence to dwell. Being born again, baptism, adoption, sonship, etc are a bit synonymous.

See the source image

Edited by Pyreaux
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55 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Yes, they "accept" Christ, but they still refuse to accept a baptism, which is why they aren't in the Celestial Kingdom. Correct? So, the original question is phrased just as Jesus told Nicodemus, they won't see the "kingdom of God", i.e., the Celestial Kingdom, if they are not born of water a second time, i.e., are not baptized. If you are not sanctified, Christ cannot bring you into the Father's presence to dwell. Being born again, baptism, adoption, sonship, etc are a bit synonymous.

See the source image

Remember we do work for the dead.

How do we find the percent of earth atheists who suddenly convert when they "wake up dead" and see the missionaries and see that glow over the hill in the Celestial kingdom?

Speaking about it on this side of the Veil becomes irrelevant 

Every knee shall bow, that's all we know.

 

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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Remember we do work for the dead.

How do we find the percent of earth atheists who suddenly convert when they "wake up dead" and see the missionaries and see that glow over the hill in the Celestial kingdom?

Speaking about it on this side of the Veil becomes irrelevant 

Every knee shall bow, that's all we know.

 

I remember, you don't have to pick at me. I'll do it to you too; like when the atheist wakens to "not-oblivion" and meet the Teachers with keys to the gates of death, they will not immediately see the glow of the kingdoms so soon, being in Sheol/Hades, a nether region of existence, in its lowest depths is Gehenna/Tartarus which has a fantastic view of the inside of the Great Gulf where the Lake of Fire lays to dissuade non-key holders from bypassing the gates, and that temping shine over the hill will likely be Pardec/Paradise. Above that would be a view of the Earth, and far above that, beyond view, are multiple layers of the Shamayim/Uranus on the completely opposite side of our multilayered existence. So, the post-mortem converted will still have to wait, in the joy of Paradise beyond punishment, but they have not and must receive a baptism, via baptism for the dead, before their day of judgment and ascendance to the higher planes. 

See the source image

Edited by Pyreaux
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On 12/8/2022 at 12:23 PM, teddyaware said:

You appear to be indicating that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will enter those realms of glory without first accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, when Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138 clearly testify otherwise

Why do only only the gods in the church of the Firstborn have their names written in heaven (Doctrine
and Covenants 76:54,58,68)?

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Because the Book of Life accounts your works of righteousness / ordinances. There is more to the transformation of theosis than just belief in Jesus unto justification, but you also need to transition in holiness unto sanctification with purifying ordinances and good works. As Jesus said you ideally must be born again as a first-born son of God to see the Kingdom of God, i.e. a baptism. Hence, baptism is the ordinance that gets you in the Celestial Kingdom.

Image result for book of life biblical

Edited by Pyreaux
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8 hours ago, marineland said:

Why do only only the gods in the church of the Firstborn have their names written in heaven (Doctrine
and Covenants 76:54,58,68)?

The whole point of Doctrine and Covenants 76 is to reveal to the world a great mystery concerning the true nature of God and the actual extent of his redeeming love, which is, as it turns out, an infinite and eternal love that is able save all those who will willingly bow the knee to the God Father at the time of the final judgement and honestly and contritely confess unto him that Jesus is The Christ. But because it’s inevitable that there are going to be varying degrees of faithfulness, heed, diligence and valiance to the cause of Christ that will be found among all those who are saved, the Father has prepared many mansions in heaven to accommodate the varying degrees of commitment and spiritual capacity that will be found among the saved. The only ones who will not be saved in one of God’s many mansions of post-resurrection glory are the sons of perdition who will ultimately refuse to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ. The verses of scripture you cite can only be properly understood in light of the entirety of Doctrine and Covenants 76. For example:

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death (the total spiritual death of the unredeemed) shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed (by Christ) in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings (I.e. that all but the sons of perdition will be saved through the atoning power of Jesus Christ), which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the sins of the world, and to bear the sins of the world (that is, bear the sins of all except for the sons of perdition), and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorified the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Edited by teddyaware
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On 12/17/2022 at 12:17 AM, teddyaware said:

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death (the total spiritual death of the unredeemed) shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed (by Christ) in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

Who are the sons of perdition?

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47 minutes ago, marineland said:

Who are the sons of perdition?

The sons of perdition are those who remain in a state of total rebellion against God and Christ at the time of their resurrection. These are they who will remain “filthy still” (stained with sin) at the time of the final judgement because they utterly refuse to accept Christ as Savior, humble themselves before God and repent of their sins. All but the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ as Lord and Savior and repent of their sins, after suffering in hell until they are able to attain to a true state of contrition. The God of the Latter-Day Saints is truly merciful and will not abandon any of his sons and daughters to hell before doing absolutely everything in his power to help them come to see the error of their ways, and their inescapable need to accept Christ as Savior and repent before they can ever expect to find peace of mind and happiness.

Edited by teddyaware
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49 minutes ago, marineland said:

Who are the sons of perdition?

The sons of perdition are the only ones cast into the lake of fire of which the "second death shall have any power" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:37).  Others may suffer the wrath of God in the "second death" as it says in Doctrine and Covenants 63:17 and elsewhere (i.e. those of the Telestial kingdom), but the sons of perdition are the only ones who remain in that state eternally (the second death has "power" over them).  The others are redeemed from that place after a period of time  (76:106). 

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"Perdition", meaning "destruction". "The sons of perdition" is a New Testament demoniacal title (John 17:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) synonymous with other Biblical titles as "the sons of darkness", and "the sons of Belial (the prince of darkness)" i.e., the devil, juxtaposed from the reborn "the sons of God", "the sons of light". Kin to the fallen demons in that they committed the unpardonable sin, "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", as opposed to blaspheming in ignorance. These are they with a perfect knowledge, granted by the Holy Ghost, and have chosen to blaspheme God and his Son, and so they cannot be pardoned having cut themselves off from the only power able to save them. They must suffer for their own sins in the Lake of Fire. Since only Jesus is able to judge who this will apply to, we only know Cain is a son of perdition and maybe someone like Judas Iscariot. In some LDS lore Murder in Cold Blood might be an unpardonable sin, so maybe folks like Hitler... No matter how many times subversive anti-Mormons try to put him on our baptism for the dead records... 

Edited by Pyreaux
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9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

"Perdition", meaning "destruction". "The sons of perdition" is a New Testament demoniacal title (John 17:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) synonymous with other Biblical titles as "the sons of darkness", and "the sons of Belial (the prince of darkness)" i.e., the devil, juxtaposed from the reborn "the sons of God", "the sons of light". Kin to the fallen demons in that they committed the unpardonable sin, "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", as opposed to blaspheming in ignorance. These are they with a perfect knowledge, granted by the Holy Ghost, and have chosen to blaspheme God and his Son, and so they cannot be pardoned having cut themselves off from the only power able to save them. They must atone for their own sins in the Lake of Fire. Since only Jesus is able to judge who this will apply to, we only know Cain is a son of perdition and maybe someone like Judas Iscariot. In some LDS lore Murder in Cold Blood might be an unpardonable sin, so maybe folks like Hitler... No matter how many times subversive anti-Mormons try to put him on our baptism for the dead records... 

How is it possible for an abjectly evil son of perdition to atone for his own sins when the scriptures amply testify that the only being who can make an atonement for sin is the perfectly holy, infinite and eternal Son of God? And since the scriptures further testify that the sons of perdition suffer in that state of existence forever, it appears certain that no amount of suffering on their part is able to satisfy the demands of divine justice. Since their suffering goes on forever, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that the sons of perdition suffer for their sins but they are never able to atone for their own sins? And if it were possible for a son of perdition to atone for his own sins, wouldn’t that mean, in contradiction to scripture, that men can indeed be saved by their own works? 

Edited by teddyaware
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On 12/8/2022 at 9:36 PM, Pyreaux said:

I remember, you don't have to pick at me. I'll do it to you too; like when the atheist wakens to "not-oblivion" and meet the Teachers with keys to the gates of death, they will not immediately see the glow of the kingdoms so soon, being in Sheol/Hades, a nether region of existence, in its lowest depths is Gehenna/Tartarus which has a fantastic view of the inside of the Great Gulf where the Lake of Fire lays to dissuade non-key holders from bypassing the gates, and that temping shine over the hill will likely be Pardec/Paradise. Above that would be a view of the Earth, and far above that, beyond view, are multiple layers of the Shamayim/Uranus on the completely opposite side of our multilayered existence. So, the post-mortem converted will still have to wait, in the joy of Paradise beyond punishment, but they have not and must receive a baptism, via baptism for the dead, before their day of judgment and ascendance to the higher planes. 

See the source image

Is this the LDS version of Dante’s Divine Comedy?

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