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3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Hardly. The Church cannot withstand intellectual and scholarly criticism.  And the most successful critics are not the Evangelical and other Christian critics. If is from the secular and disaffected member ranks. 

I think this is a very insightful comment!

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1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Hardly, we are the scholarly now, we have the PHDs, we embrace new discoveries that neo-critics are unequipped to handle. Thus, our greatest critics and dissenters are now woke-secular hyperbolic teenagers who were only schooled in overthrowing patriarchal systems and middle-aged men who feel oppressed by their wholesome upbringing and want to relate to woke teenagers, and their scholarly research was done on an iPhone. You think the dreed CES Letter came from reading books, or was it cut and paste from a blog?

Keep telling yourself that as your church withers away. No matter to me any longer. The LDS Church really is a rather insignificant thing on the world stage and only has an oversized influence and ego among its very few members.

 

BTW said nothing about the CES letter which never impressed me. So that is a red herring.

Edited by Teancum
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16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Keep telling yourself that as your church withers away. No matter to me any longer. The LDS Church really is a rather insignificant thing on the world stage and only has an oversized influence and ego among its very few members.

 

BTW said nothing about the CES letter which never impressed me. So that is a red herring.

Oh please, the drops in conversion numbers had more to do with Covid than it did critics. Growing pains for an evolution that was long overdue.

We've been on the world stage, in academia ever since the Oxford Movement. We have many published and accredited Mormon scholars competent in their various fields. Not many are fit to tie Hugh Nibley's intellectual shoes. Whenever there was a new discovery in the last few decades, we had a master of ancient languages, Hugh Nibley, that could read and then write to us about the new discoveries long before the source was available in English. He was a beacon for other Mormon scholars and voracious readers with an uncanny knack of finding ignored or discarded elements of patristic, pseudepigraphal and intertestamental theology and practice. They elevated the prominence of Mormon scholarship, having more enthusiasm and interest in what these items had to say than anyone. We believe truth is buried out there and our faith has been rewarded. Dead Sea Scrolls confirms what we suspected about the Bible and what others feared.

The CES Letter was my example of modern day "scholarly" criticism we contend with now-a-days. These new pop atheists are hack researchers and philosophers at best. They prey on the weak minded or rather those looking for any usable excuse to justify their behavior. Not the sort we need. It's not like this isn't a pattern we've all seen, one day the brat child leaves home, goes inactive, learns life the hard way, eventually they grow up, realize the wisdom of their parent, this classic Prodigal Son phase happens all the time. Only now they Socialized online in support groups to help affirm their choices that were born from teen angst or a midlife crisis least they start to doubt. Any flimsy excuse will do, so they don't need scholars.

Edited by Pyreaux
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13 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is clear these days that Nibley is way overrated.

You can tell him that when you see him, as well.

P.S.: "Nibley is way overrated" is simply an excuse to dismiss what he said.  In no way does it deal with what, as I quoted earlier in the thread, he said.  "Nibley is way overrated" says nothing about why, allegedly [that is, according to you] he is wrong in this instance.  Got substance?

Edited by Kenngo1969
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Right is right even if nobody says it, believes it, or does it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody says it, believes it, or does it.  Vox populi =/= Vox dei.

 

P.S.: And I'm still waiting to hear how "growing slower than ever" = "losing more members than ever."  It's a neat trick to be pulling off both of those things at the same time: I'd like to hear how it is done.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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15 hours ago, Teancum said:

Hardly. The Church cannot withstand intellectual and scholarly criticism.  And the most successful critics are not the Evangelical and other Christian critics. If is from the secular and disaffected member ranks. 

Maybe so.  It's probably a bigger issue for those who base their belief in the Church solely on intellectual and scholarly grounds.  I don't understand why a member who claims personal revelation from God that this is Christ's church would care what a unbelieving critic thinks.

Do you feel you are a successful critic as a disaffected member?  You seem kinda gruff and irritable which could turn off some people.  I do enjoy reading your posts though.  I think the most persuasive critics are the ones that manage to hide their disgust towards the Church and its members.

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1 hour ago, Snodgrassian said:

Mormon Stories seems to vacillate between JDs traditional format and appealing to gen z. I dont blame him for trying, but the tone, messaging and phrasing is intolerable, in my opinion. This then bleeds to the rest of tiktok, instagram, etc. I think the Church is a serious institution and deserves to be treated as such. I want to read/listen to well thought out arguments, people's stories, not just egomaniacs trying to score internet points against the competition. The Midnight Mormons, are a perfect example of the faithful bro culture.   

Agreed.  I'm tired of the "BURN!" type of apologetics that we've been getting in the last few years, on both sides.   Being witty or making someone look dumb doesn't make you right.

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Edited by bluebell
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18 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Thus, our greatest critics and dissenters are now woke-secular hyperbolic teenagers who were only schooled in overthrowing patriarchal systems and middle-aged men who feel oppressed by their wholesome upbringing and want to relate to woke teenagers, and their scholarly research was done on an iPhone.

Fairly reductive and myopic.

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5 hours ago, gopher said:

Maybe so.  It's probably a bigger issue for those who base their belief in the Church solely on intellectual and scholarly grounds.  I don't understand why a member who claims personal revelation from God that this is Christ's church would care what a unbelieving critic thinks.

I don't think anyone bases their beliefs solely on intellectual and scholarly grounds. Nevertheless, if you are a person of intellectual/scholarly bent, you are naturally going to be inclined to want such grounding, insofar as possible.

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20 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Oh please, the drops in conversion numbers had more to do with Covid than it did critics. Growing pains for an evolution that was long overdue.

We've been on the world stage, in academia ever since the Oxford Movement. We have many published and accredited Mormon scholars competent in their various fields. Not many are fit to tie Hugh Nibley's intellectual shoes. Whenever there was a new discovery in the last few decades, we had a master of ancient languages, Hugh Nibley, that could read and then write to us about the new discoveries long before the source was available in English. He was a beacon for other Mormon scholars and voracious readers with an uncanny knack of finding ignored or discarded elements of patristic, pseudepigraphal and intertestamental theology and practice. They elevated the prominence of Mormon scholarship, having more enthusiasm and interest in what these items had to say than anyone. We believe truth is buried out there and our faith has been rewarded. Dead Sea Scrolls confirms what we suspected about the Bible and what others feared.

The CES Letter was my example of modern day "scholarly" criticism we contend with now-a-days. These new pop atheists are hack researchers and philosophers at best. They prey on the weak minded or rather those looking for any usable excuse to justify their behavior. Not the sort we need. It's not like this isn't a pattern we've all seen, one day the brat child leaves home, goes inactive, learns life the hard way, eventually they grow up, realize the wisdom of their parent, this classic Prodigal Son phase happens all the time. Only now they Socialized online in support groups to help affirm their choices that were born from teen angst or a midlife crisis least they start to doubt. Any flimsy excuse will do, so they don't need scholars.

It could be that during COVID they realized how they were able to feel the spirit while doing church at home too. 

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5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It could be that during COVID they realized how they were able to feel the spirit while doing church at home too. 

Can you explain what you mean?  I would hope everyone who was doing church at home was able to feel the spirit.  If our leaders didn't want that to happen, there would have been no reason for them to ask us to do it.

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I went and visited Sandra Tanner several years ago at her Lighthouse Ministry Bookstore location.  I went with the desire to share with her a profound spiritual experience I had after first being exposed to her Mormonism: Shadow or Reality book while on my mission in Australia.  I found her to be very kind and grandmotherly.

I won't bore you with the details but needless to say, I remained on my mission.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Can you explain what you mean?  I would hope everyone who was doing church at home was able to feel the spirit.  If our leaders didn't want that to happen, there would have been no reason for them to ask us to do it.

Maybe they liked home church so much they quit going to the ward house. ETA: Oops, I read the post my response was to, and noticed it said converts or investigators. I notice on my Faith Journey Facebook group, a lot said they quit going during COVID and never returned. 

Edited by Tacenda
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