Colorado Nightclub Shooter is a (Nominal) Member of the Church

[smac97]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:27 PM, Teancum said:

 Because many here have a persecution complex and play it well. 

Rebutting public accusations against a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as a "persecution complex."

On 11/25/2022 at 1:27 PM, Teancum said:

Even a small thimble of criticism and an attach on a "religious minority." 

Publicly accusing a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as "a small thimble of criticism."

On 11/25/2022 at 1:27 PM, Teancum said:

There is a lot of thin skin among Latter day Saints.

Rebutting public accusations against a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as being "thin-skinned."

-Smac

[Nofear]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:27 PM, Teancum said:

 Because many here have a persecution complex and play it well.  Even a small thimble of criticism and an attach on a "religious minority."  There is a lot of thin skin among Latter day Saints.

Perhaps some, but as an institution and for the vast majority, criticism is often disregarded or rolled with. One common criticism is that we don't respond to criticism enough. As such. I find your accusation of thin skin utterly abhorrent and I can scarcely contain the foam and spittle as I type this being so infuriated that I can barely see well enough to type this. Rage!!! If I had a shoe to dust and you were nearby, consider it dusted. 👺

[smac97]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:08 PM, The Nehor said:

Quote

 

You have presented zero evidence that the old lady with a walker fits the dictionary definition of "Nazi."  So you are using some other definition of "Nazi" when you approve of it being applied to that lady.

I strongly suspect you likewise go outside the dictionary definition of "Fascist."

These are just labels you arbitrarily thrown out against people you dislike.  And you use these labels to preemptively justify physical violence against such people.

 

The evidence is the Bernier event. This was shortly after Bernier formed his new far right party. His co-founders were an anti-Muslim extremist and a literal Neo-Nazi.

Logically, people interested in a party founded by a Neo-Nazi is a Nazi. Is this why you were saying I arbitrarily throw the label around? For thinking people going to a Nazi event is probably a Nazi. Did you even know what the event was? LOL

You are proving my point.  See here:

Quote

Woman with walker, called 'Nazi scum' by protesters at Bernier event, speaks out

'They were ... treating me like I'm a criminal,' says 81-year-old Dorothy Marston

Dan Taekema · CBC News · Posted: Oct 02, 2019 6:05 PM ET | Last Updated: October 2, 2019

Dorothy Marston, 81, is the elderly woman who protesters tried to stop from attending an event with People's Party of Canada Leader Maxime Bernier in Hamilton on Sept. 29. Images of the showdown have been widely shared on social media. (Dan Taekema/CBC)

 

Dorothy Marston says it was curiosity about Maxime Bernier's platform that brought her to Mohawk College in Hamilton on Sunday, but when she tried to get inside the venue where he was speaking, she and her husband found their way blocked by a line of protesters.

The row of people standing between the 81-year-old using a walker and the political fundraiser had their faces covered. Some shouted "Nazi scum off our streets" as she tried to pass and, Marston says, one person intentionally put a foot in front of her wheel, forcing her to stop.

"They were in a lineup … and treating me like I'm a criminal," she said during an interview at the Hamilton-area retirement residence where she lives.

"If I moved, they moved and they would not allow me through. They were hollering 'Nazi' and 'racist' and all this nonsense. It was more than nonsense, it was frightening in my country."

The showdown between the senior and the wall of protesters was captured in pictures and video that have been widely shared on social media, especially by People's Party of Canada (PPC) supporters decrying "Antifa" — anti-fascist protesters — for their actions. 

Marston says in the moment she was "fearless," even with people yelling in her face, but once she made it into the building she broke into tears.

"I was very sad because I love my country and this is totally in opposition to what it should be," she explained.
...

Investigators specifically pointed to the video of the protesters yelling at Marston, saying while officers didn't witness the initial confrontation once police saw what was happening they got involved and helped the couple into the building. 

Alice Smith, one of the organizers of the protest, previously told CBC Hamilton that the actions by those in the video do not reflect the views held by the majority of people who came out.

"If I had been there at that spot, at that moment ... I would have stepped in to stop it, because that wasn't what we were there for," she said, adding people were there to protest against a "particular ideology" more so than a single person.

Marston's husband, Brian, said he went and got the police after one of the people blocking the couple's way intentionally walked into him as he was trying to free the wheel of his wife's walker.

Once police showed up, the protesters disappeared and they were able to make it inside.

The couple say they wanted to attend the panel discussion hosted by American YouTuber and political commentator Dave Rubin because while they've been able to learn about the other major party leaders through the media they felt Bernier was "being ignored."

But by the time they made it inside, they could only find seats at the very back, so Marston, who has trouble hearing, wasn't able to catch much of the discussion.

Dorothy and her husband, Brian say they're not looking to get back at anyone for what happened, but they do hope something similar doesn't happen again. (Dan Taekema/CBC)

Marston said she isn't sure who she'll vote for and that she's still trying to learn more about the PPC, though she thinks Bernier cares about the country and offers new ideas compared to the other party leaders.

The senior says she's aware Bernier's comments on immigration have upset people, but said she also has questions about who should be able to come to Canada.

She says, in her opinion, immigration has been largely positive, but "maybe we shouldn't open the floodgates."

"I look at the Middle East and it frightens me, because there's no democracy … and the fighting in Syria and the values are different than ours," she said. 

Marston, who was a social worker for 40 years, says she's not a racist or a Nazi.

"I don't care what colour, what race, nothing. What people think, that to me is what's important."
...

Brian says he and Dorothy plan to meet with police Friday to talk about what happened, but said they aren't looking to get back at anyone.

"We're not after retribution. What we'd like to see is that would never happen again," he said. 

The couple has no problem with people protesting and voicing their displeasure about something, but says he draws the line at "bullying and coercion."

She describes what happened as an attack on free speech, calling the entire experience shocking and insulting.

"I want to know who I'm voting for and I want to know what their values are." she said.

"It's very sad that we're not open and we don't trust the citizens enough, such as me, to hear what people who want to lead us are saying."

This woman is, in your view, a "Nazi."

In your view, physical violence against this woman is justified.

Again, your response to how this woman was treated:

"Nazi" is, for you, anyone you dislike, an arbitrary label you use to justify physical violence.

-Smac

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Rebutting public accusations against a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as a "persecution complex."

Publicly accusing a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as "a small thimble of criticism."

Rebutting public accusations against a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as being "thin-skinned."

-Smac

YOur are pretty thinned skinned.  And you have a HUGE persecution complex.  

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Perhaps some, but as an institution and for the vast majority, criticism is often disregarded or rolled with. One common criticism is that we don't respond to criticism enough. As such. I find your accusation of thin skin utterly abhorrent and I can scarcely contain the foam and spittle as I type this being so infuriated that I can barely see well enough to type this. Rage!!! If I had a shoe to dust and you were nearby, consider it dusted. 👺

Thank you for proving my point.

[Nofear]

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Thank you for proving my point.

Your welcome. I'm glad to oblige. For the record, the accusation of "thin skinned" to another is really just a variant of an ad-hominem and really doesn't have place in rational discussion (which, of course, is why it shows up on discussion boards so often ). That's not to say that that the accusations of thin skinness are never accurate. But, they are rarely ever helpful.

 

PS: I stop now since my comments are rather a bit too much in the board nannying vein (my apologies to all the nanas out there for my use of that social group as a non-positive metaphor).

Edited November 26, 2022 by Nofear

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

YOur are pretty thinned skinned. 

Not really.  I have not been personally accused of anything (Nehor accused me of racism or something, but his deprecatory remarks aren't worth much).

I am fine with the Church being criticized, particularly where it has messed up at the institutional level.  Publicly accusing it - accusing us - of inciting mass murder is beyond the pale of civil discourse.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

And you have a HUGE persecution complex.  

Again, rebutting public accusations against a religious minority of inciting mass murder is not reasonably characterized as a "persecution complex."

I doubt you would disparage Jews for taking exception to the blood libel canard.  What is going on here differs from that in degree, but not kind.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 26, 2022 by smac97

[ttribe]

On 11/24/2022 at 9:37 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Ok.  Hold on.  Wait a moment.  Full stop please.  So, folks on this thread have suggested church leaders "tone down war rhetoric".  @ttribe is calling out responses to this suggestion, saying there is anger and vitriol.

Can someone point to any post on this thread exhibiting anger and vitriol? ttribe, cite your source please. 

One thing that I know happens on occasion, is sometimes folks will look at a response they don't like, and they'll demonize it. Claiming anger and vitriol exists when it doesn't.  I'm wondering if that's happening here, or if I missed a post.  So yes, please - if someone is exhibiting anger and/or vitriol in response to the suggestion, please point it out.  I'd like to maybe add my voice to those who would seek a calmer discourse.  

Or, if no examples are forthcoming because they don't exist, then I'd call on ttribe to stop the inflammatory unproductive demonizing rhetoric.  Such things aren't helpful.

 

Fair enough. Point taken. Perhaps I should have stated "impassioned responses" rather than "anger and vitriol."

[Damien the Leper]

On 11/23/2022 at 12:22 PM, provoman said:

ACAB, and improper use of Facist / Nazis, all 3 used to incite violence.

 

 

 

Like using socialists and commies as well right? Let's maintain consistency.

[Maestrophil]

Is it really becasue he was somehow exposed to the church and it's teachings?  WHat then, does that mean given this headline?:

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-springs-suspect-identifies-nonbinary-uses-pronounces-defense-rcna58499

 

 

[Snodgrassian]

The only way for us to understand the impact of our words is to listen to those who receive it. I can't speak for how Elders Holland and Oaks "Musket Fire" was received by members of the LBTBQ community, but I think any discourse that leverages violence/guns should be shunned, and that goes for both sides (there was a reference to an LGBTQ leader using war/battle reference). It is easy for those of us that are straight to not view the musket fire reference as a metaphor. But I don't blame members of the LGBTQ community to be upset by it. I would think if prominent, powerful group used "Musket fire" referencing the Church (LDS), members would be upset (rightfully so).  

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

The only way for us to understand the impact of our words is to listen to those who receive it. I can't speak for how Elders Holland and Oaks "Musket Fire" was received by members of the LBTBQ community, but I think any discourse that leverages violence/guns should be shunned, and that goes for both sides (there was a reference to an LGBTQ leader using war/battle reference). It is easy for those of us that are straight to not view the musket fire reference as a metaphor. But I don't blame members of the LGBTQ community to be upset by it. I would think if prominent, powerful group used "Musket fire" referencing the Church (LDS), members would be upset (rightfully so).  

https://braininjurysvcs.org/choose-wisely-how-our-words-impact-others/#:~:text=As author Yehuda Berg states,bring the community together or

"When it comes to living an altruistic lifestyle, a lot can be said for what we say. As author Yehuda Berg states, “Words are singularly the most powerful force available to humanity… Words have energy and power with the ability to help, to heal, to hurt, to harm, to humiliate and to humble.” The words we choose and how we use them can build others up or tear them down; bring the community together or rip it apart."

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

As author Yehuda Berg states, “Words are singularly the most powerful force available to humanity…

As comedian Irwin Corey quipped, "you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word."

 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://braininjurysvcs.org/choose-wisely-how-our-words-impact-others/#:~:text=As author Yehuda Berg states,bring the community together or

"When it comes to living an altruistic lifestyle, a lot can be said for what we say. As author Yehuda Berg states, “Words are singularly the most powerful force available to humanity… Words have energy and power with the ability to help, to heal, to hurt, to harm, to humiliate and to humble.” The words we choose and how we use them can build others up or tear them down; bring the community together or rip it apart."

This is true, but at the same time, listeners have a responsibility as well.  The way that we choose to interpret words can also have power to help, to heal, to hurt, to harm, to humiliate, and to humble.  When we choose to interpret words in ways that they were not meant to be interpreted, then we are responsible for the negative energy that our interpretation puts out into the world.

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This is true, but at the same time, listeners have a responsibility as well.  The way that we choose to interpret words can also have power to help, to heal, to hurt, to harm, to humiliate, and to humble.  When we choose to interpret words in ways that they were not meant to be interpreted, then we are responsible for the negative energy that our interpretation puts out into the world.

 

Very true bluebell! I often have to decide how to react to someone saying something and if I'm reading them wrong.

[Damien the Leper]

I don't believe the LDS church is in any way responsible for the shooting in CO. Does the church have a less than welcoming history toward LGBTQ? Absolutely. This is when it would seem more mature to simply disregard the source of the contention and move on with life. One of the best decisions I ever made was to stop caring about what the church taught on a subject that leadership may likely be very ignorant about. Violent metaphor is sometimes warranted, IMO. For example, and not to derail with heavy politics, listen to the lyrics of the song "The Great Divide" by the band Anti-Flag.

In the context of the song and the social and economic climate of the US "fix your bayonets" seems appropriate. 

As for Holland's choice of words...reward him and his rhetoric with "muskets" on behalf of those whom he has a problem with.  The sanctimonious ignorance with which he speaks should be treated as such or just outright and justifiably ignored. Just like the rest of us he's just a dude with a mouth and an opinion. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Damien the Leper

[OGHoosier]

15 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

As for Holland's choice of words...reward him and his rhetoric with "muskets" on behalf of those whom he has a problem with.  The sanctimonious ignorance with which he speaks should be treated as such or just outright and justifiably ignored. Just like the rest of us he's just a dude with a mouth and an opinion. 

Nah, I don't think I will.

[ksfisher]

18 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

like the rest of us he's just a dude with a mouth and an opinion. 

Yes the Lord has chosen him to be His witness. 

[Damien the Leper]

11 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Yes the Lord has chosen him to be His witness. 

Not like God has chosen the Bishop of Rome. 

[Damien the Leper]

14 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Nah, I don't think I will.

That's fine.

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Not like God has chosen the Bishop of Rome. 

I’m not sure what you mean by that. 

[Damien the Leper]

The Bishop of Rome is the Vicar of Christ. He was chosen by God to be His messenger. 

[bsjkki]

For those who want the rest of the story. 
 

https://www.kktv.com/2022/12/08/el-paso-county-sheriffs-office-responds-club-q-suspects-previous-case-an-alleged-bomb-threat/

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

I do want to know why all the charges were dropped. 

[bsjkki]

Link with case documents https://www.kktv.com/2022/11/23/kktv-obtains-old-arrest-papers-likely-tied-club-q-shooting-suspect-alleged-bomb-threat/