Definition of the Term Christian when Referring to a Person

[Pyreaux]

As a general academic term, it is polite to include those do not have initiatory rites and include heretics (even extinct Gnostic groups) and exclude those who accept the Christ is real and inspired yet do not identify as Christian (Muslims).   

However, as a term to mean those Christ is moving, inspired and has or intends to lay claim. A secret member of the "Church of the Lamb" or "Invisible Church", might include any believer in God and/or shows mercy to his brother. Even those dead, judged by men in the flesh, but are still alive in spirit. Even the eastern monk who serves his fellow man but knows not his God's true name or attributes. All who will or would oppose the Church of Babylon in the last day.

We hold no Monopoly on righteousness, religious truth, divine favor, inspiration nor salvation (or at least on the path that will ultimately lead there eventually).

• Joseph Smith, “The inquiry is frequently made of me, ‘Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?’ In reality and essence, we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 313.) “Have the Presbyterians any truth?” he asked on another occasion. “Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. . . . We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up’” (Smith, Teachings, 316).
• Brigham Young, "it is not for us to question him in his right, power, and privilege − in the extent of his doings. He blesses the human family; he raises up nations, kingdoms, and governments, and controls in the armies of the world. He rules in the heavens, and makes the wrath of man praise him, and gives his Spirit when and to whom he pleases. . . . I never passed John Wesley's church in London without stopping to look at it. Was he a good man? Yes; I suppose him to have been, by all accounts, as good as ever walked on this earth, according to his knowledge. Has he obtained a rest? Yes, and greater than ever entered his mind to expect; and so have thousands of others of the various religious denominations. Why could he not build up the kingdom of God on the earth: He had not the Priesthood; that was all the difficulty he laboured under. Had the Priesthood been conferred upon him, he would have built up the kingdom of God in his day as it is now being built up. He would have introduced the ordinances, powers, grades, and quorums of the Priesthood; but, not holding the Priesthood, he could not do it. Did the Spirit of God rest upon him? Yes, and does, more or less, at times, upon all people." (Journal of Discourses, 7:5; see also 6:170; 11:126).
• John Taylor, “We wish to comprehend and embrace all truth and seek for and obtain everything that is calculated to exalt, ennoble and dignify the human family; and wherever we find truth, no matter where, or from what source it may come, it becomes part and parcel of our religious creed, if you please, or our political creed, or our moral creed, or our philosophy, as the case may be, or whatever you may please to term it. We are open for the reception of all truth, of whatever nature it may be, and are desirous to obtain and possess it, to search after it as we would for hidden treasures; and to use all the knowledge God gives to us to possess ourselves of all the intelligence that he has given to others; and to ask at his hands to reveal unto us his will, in regard to things that are the best calculated to promote the happiness and well-being of human society. If there are any good principles, any moral philosophy that we have not yet attained to we are desirous to learn them. If there is anything in the scientific world that we do not yet comprehend we desire to become acquainted with it. If there is any branch of philosophy calculated to promote the well-being of humanity, that we have not yet grasped, we wish to possess ourselves of it. If there is anything pertaining to the rule and government of nations, or politics … that we are not acquainted with, we desire to possess it. If there are any religious ideas, any theological truths, any principles pertaining to God, that we have not learned, we ask mankind, and we pray God, our Heavenly Father, to enlighten our minds that we may comprehend, realize, embrace and live up to them as part of our religious faith. Thus our ideas and thoughts would extend as far as the wide world spreads, embracing everything pertaining to light, life or existence pertaining to this world or the world that is to come.”
• B. H. Roberts, “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. … All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.”

That said, "I", though as far as its intended to define one who has been Quickened by the Holy Ghost, one who claims to "follow Christ", that is, through the temple veil; one who has been "born again" formally adopted by God; and is "saved" in a transformative state of being that allows one to draw nigh unto God even while they live on earth, is not so broad. The prophesied Christ, being the God of Israel, we Gentiles from foreign nations cannot be claimed unless we are adopted into Israel by him in baptism, the first step of many High Priestly initiation rites that were necessary to anoint and turn non-Levite Davidic kings and prophets and post-Christ Gentiles into adopted children of the Lord-God of Israel. To really follow the teachings and example of Christ, becoming a "Christian" to me means to become a "christ" yourself, an anointed priest-king. It is vexing, because some so-called Christians reject the concept of there being anoint priests, thus to me are "anti-christs". While that might seem restrictive, mind you that in our perception, even those who preach against the truth in ignorance will have a true and honest opportunity to become a true Christian, with a little help of their next available a live or ghastly hierophant from the one "Visible Church" or "Living Church".  After all... 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Pyreaux

[InCognitus]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, Navidad said:

Greetings all. I am interested in reading your various definitions of the word Christian when applied to an individual, for example 'He is a Christian." I ask because it seems that like other terms, this word may mean different things to different of us. I am not as interested in what a dictionary says as what you all, the members of this forum mean when you use the term to refer to individuals. Or perhaps the word has the same meaning for you whether using it about a community, a faith, or a church in an adjectival or descriptive sense? Someone offered a definition earlier this week that he indicated was a "generic" definition. I am wide open to any or all input that you care to offer. Thanks so much.

Christian® is a registered trademark of Evangelical Protestants and may not be used by any denomination without express written consent. All rights reserved.

[Reign Gurl]

7 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

We hold no Monopoly on righteousness, religious truth, divine favor, inspiration nor salvation (or at least on the path that will ultimately lead there eventually

Of course we do! 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of Darkness, the only true and living church on the face of the whole Earth..."

Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, v.30

 

 

I see you didn't include exaltation in your list of what we don't hold a monopoly on. That's key! Because salvation doesn't get you back to Heavenly Father or the highest Heaven where he lives. Christians only receive salvation, meaning they won't live eternity with God in the afterlife. 

Out if the 1000s of churches in Christendom, how many are true and living?

[RAD DAD]

Christians frequently refer to their acceptance of Christ as saviour as being "saved" but what they really mean is the general salvation that all of God's children on earth experience just by virtue of their birth. Therefore, whether you are a Christian or not, there is no difference between Christianity and Islam or Judaism in God's eyes. Additionally, general salvation does not return you to the celestial Kingdom where Jesus and your heavenly father reside. Individual salvation or exaltation is a concern for Mormons. This salvation which we refer to as the true Christian gospel or the living gospel is only possible through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Christians frequently refer to their acceptance of Christ as saviour as being "saved" but what they really mean is the general salvation that all of God's children on earth experience just by virtue of their birth. Therefore, whether you are a Christian or not, there is no difference between Christianity and Islam or Judaism in God's eyes. Additionally, general salvation does not return you to the celestial Kingdom where Jesus and your heavenly father reside. Individual salvation or exaltation is a concern for Mormons. This salvation which we refer to as the true Christian gospel or the living gospel is only possible through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I've never actually met a practicing Christian who believed there was no difference between those who have accepted Christ and those who haven't, in God's eyes.  

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Reign Gurl said:

Of course we do! 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of Darkness, the only true and living church on the face of the whole Earth..."

Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, v.30

 

 

I see you didn't include exaltation in your list of what we don't hold a monopoly on. That's key! Because salvation doesn't get you back to Heavenly Father or the highest Heaven where he lives. Christians only receive salvation, meaning they won't live eternity with God in the afterlife. 

Out if the 1000s of churches in Christendom, how many are true and living?

Let's break this down to his individual claims. You say "of course" we hold a monopoly on the following principles.  Please support your claim for each of the following:

1) Righteousness. 

2) Religious truth

3) Divine favor

4) Inspiration

5) Salvation

D&C 1:30 does not say that we are the only righteous, the only church with religious truth, the only people who are divinely favored, the only church with inspiration, or the only church that leads to salvation.   I think you misinterpret that verse. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by pogi

[Navidad]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:06 AM, Reign Gurl said:

What do you think about the quotes I provided,  Navidad?

I think they indicate another era in LDS doctrinal history. . . one that is in some ways an embarrassment to many, perhaps including current leaders of the church.

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Christian® is a registered trademark of Evangelical Protestants and may not be used by any denomination without express written consent. All rights reserved.

That's a good one! I will be happy to take applications for express written consent! Ha! 🙃

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, Reign Gurl said:

Of course we do! 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of Darkness, the only true and living church on the face of the whole Earth..."

Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, v.30

 

 

I see you didn't include exaltation in your list of what we don't hold a monopoly on. That's key! Because salvation doesn't get you back to Heavenly Father or the highest Heaven where he lives. Christians only receive salvation, meaning they won't live eternity with God in the afterlife. 

Out if the 1000s of churches in Christendom, how many are true and living?

I wonder what the Lord means when He finished the quote that you started with the following conclusion and clarification . . . "speaking unto the church collectively and not individually." Who or what is the collective church to whom He is speaking? Who is the individual church to whom He makes clear He is not speaking? Hmmm.

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

what they really mean

Thanks for explaining to me what I "really mean." That was good of you! 😀

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Reign Gurl said:

Of course we do! 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of Darkness, the only true and living church on the face of the whole Earth..."

Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, v.30

 

 

I see you didn't include exaltation in your list of what we don't hold a monopoly on. That's key! Because salvation doesn't get you back to Heavenly Father or the highest Heaven where he lives. Christians only receive salvation, meaning they won't live eternity with God in the afterlife. 

Out if the 1000s of churches in Christendom, how many are true and living?

 

4 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Christians frequently refer to their acceptance of Christ as saviour as being "saved" but what they really mean is the general salvation that all of God's children on earth experience just by virtue of their birth. Therefore, whether you are a Christian or not, there is no difference between Christianity and Islam or Judaism in God's eyes. Additionally, general salvation does not return you to the celestial Kingdom where Jesus and your heavenly father reside. Individual salvation or exaltation is a concern for Mormons. This salvation which we refer to as the true Christian gospel or the living gospel is only possible through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You probably have no outside scripture to support this, just the D&C, Joseph wrote. ETA: Or PoGP.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Tacenda

[RAD DAD]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You probably have no outside scripture to support this, just the D&C, Joseph wrote.

What is outside scripture? 

[RAD DAD]

32 minutes ago, Navidad said:

." Who or what is the collective church to whom He is speaking?

Do you want me to respond to your inquiry in my capacity as a Christian or a Mormon? Since the response varies based on how I respond.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

What is outside scripture? 

Outside of the LDS scripture.

[RAD DAD]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Outside of the LDS scripture.

Please elaborate on the question you are posing to me. I'm attempting to illustrate that, at least according to LDS belief, being a Christian alone won't bring you back into God's presence. Christianity won't even lead you to heaven; instead it will place all Christians in spirit prison alongside Muslims, Jews, and other non-Mormons. If one wants to reach spirit paradise after entering spirit prison, they must accept both the LDS churches message and the real gospel of Christ.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Please elaborate on the question you are posing to me. I'm attempting to illustrate that, at least according to LDS belief, being a Christian alone won't bring you back into God's presence. Christianity won't even lead you to heaven; instead it will place all Christians in spirit prison alongside Muslims, Jews, and other non-Mormons. If one wants to reach spirit paradise after entering spirit prison, they must accept both the LDS churches message and the real gospel of Christ.

If Joseph relied on the scriptures in the bible to restore this church, I'm wondering where he saw in those scriptures what you're portraying, was just curious. I thought Joseph got the three heavens from Swedenborg. Joseph tended to take what was around him and use it to restore the church, IMO. But I know Fair would disagree. 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Do you want me to respond to your inquiry in my capacity as a Christian or a Mormon? Since the response varies based on how I respond.

I don't want you to respond in any way other than as your true self. You might be either an LDS Christian or a non-LDS Christian. I have no idea! Go for it!

[RAD DAD]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Outside of the LDS 

Here's a fantastic video that illustrates how Christians can be deceived into thinking that their salvation will be sufficient to bring them into God's presence.

 

[RAD DAD]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't want you to respond in any way other than as your true self. You might be either an LDS Christian or a non-LDS Christian. I have no idea! Go for it!

The video I just shared makes it crystal clear why a general salvation such as the one Christians claim to have, is insufficient to enter God's presence. 

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Please elaborate on the question you are posing to me. I'm attempting to illustrate that, at least according to LDS belief, being a Christian alone won't bring you back into God's presence. Christianity won't even lead you to heaven; instead it will place all Christians in spirit prison alongside Muslims, Jews, and other non-Mormons. If one wants to reach spirit paradise after entering spirit prison, they must accept both the LDS churches message and the real gospel of Christ.

This is not exactly what we believe though.  We certainly don't believe that everyone that dies without having become "mormon" will end up in spirit prison.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If Joseph relied on the scriptures in the bible to restore this church, I'm wondering where he saw in those scriptures what you're portraying, was just curious. I thought Joseph got the three heavens from Swedenborg. Joseph tended to take what was around him and use it to restore the church, IMO. But I know Fair would disagree. 

You know that we believe that JS received knowledge of the three kingdoms of glory via revelation Tacenda.  You might disagree now that you don't believe anymore, but you should still be aware of our beliefs about how JS restored this church (and it wasn't a reliance on the bible).

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Here's a fantastic video that illustrates how Christians can be deceived into thinking that their salvation will be sufficient to bring them into God's presence.

I just watched the video. Thanks for posting it. I have never heard of this concept of "general" salvation, neither have I ever heard a non-LDS Christian claim to have it. Could you share some references or sources where non-LDS Christians use the term "general" salvation? I would appreciate it.  I have heard of "general" revelation many times and am a firm believer in it, but never a "general" salvation. Take care.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

You know that we believe that JS received knowledge of the three kingdoms of glory via revelation Tacenda.  You might disagree now that you don't believe anymore, but you should still be aware of our beliefs about how JS restored this church (and it wasn't a reliance on the bible).

Hi bluebell - Quick question. Could not God have used the works and writings of someone like Emmanuel Swedenborg to "reveal" certain truths to Joseph Smith? Are the only sources of revelations, dreams, visions, and other supernatural manifestations? Could not God have used the Whitmers to teach Joseph Smith some of the truths found in Anabaptism that worked their way into LDS doctrine? Didn't God use Sidney Rigdon in the development of some early LDS doctrine? Is all revelation supernatural in the LDS mindset? Thanks.

 

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

 I'm attempting to illustrate that, at least according to LDS belief, being a Christian alone won't bring you back into God's presence.

I would counter that being "Mormon" alone wont bring you back into God's presence either, according to LDS belief.  

57 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Christianity won't even lead you to heaven; instead it will place all Christians in spirit prison alongside Muslims, Jews, and other non-Mormons.

If you define "heaven" as the kingdoms of glory post-final-judgment, then yes, Christianity can and does lead one to heaven.  In fact, the only people found in hell (outer-darkness) will be Mormons.   

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by pogi

[RAD DAD]

12 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I just watched the video. Thanks for posting it. I have never heard of this concept of "general" salvation, neither have I ever heard a non-LDS Christian claim to have it. Could you share some references or sources where non-LDS Christians us the term "general" salvation? I would appreciate it.  I have heard of "general" revelation many times and am a firm believer in it, but never a "general" salvation. Take care.

Salvation: Broken down into two categories:  Individual or personal salvation (more correctly termed “exaltation“) and general salvation that everyone receives through the Atonement and grace. According to tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith: “Salvation is twofold: General – that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ- and, Individual – that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:134).

 

The road to individual salvation begins with a belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet sent by God.  Smith stated that there is “No Salvation Without Accepting Joseph Smith” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:189). Exaltation requirements include living a life of good works and temple participation. Keeping the whole law is absolutely essential, as Smith said, “Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep ALL of the commandments of the Lord” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:41). General salvation, otherwise called salvation by grace, was obtained through the death of Christ and is nothing more than universal resurrection, which occurs to all people regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle.

 

 

I will post more on general salvation later. The meaning of salvation is the biggest difference between Christianity and the LDS faith.